Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

Listen today to hear Cannabis journalist and author, Andrew Ward talk with hosts Bryan @bryanfields24 and Kellan @kellan_finney about the world of Cannabis culture and writing.

You will also here insights about

  • Educating the Public about Cannabis
  • THC Caps and Future Legislation
  • Inspiration for his book The Art of Marijuana Etiquette
  • Professions in Cannabis

After working for a startup, Andrew Ward was trying to find a sector of the marketing and writing world he fit into and could be passionate about. He saw the newly budding cannabis industry and threw himself into the field. Now with over 500 published pieces, Andrew is a key figure in the cannabis community. You can purchase Andrew’s books on Amazon as well as other favorite retailers.

You can support The Dime Podcast by following us on Social Media or by sharing your favorite episode with a friend.


[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents.

What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime. It’s always, I’ve got my right hand, Nan Kellen Sydney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Andrew Ward. Author of the art of marijuana, etiquette and featured writer in all the industry’s top publications.

Andrew, thanks for taking the time.

How you doing today?

[00:00:27]Andrew Ward: Hey guys. Thanks a lot. I appreciate you having me doing real well, excited to be here.

[00:00:31]Bryan Fields: A Brooklyn base. We’re pushing the east coast really hard. Kevin, how you doing? Yeah.

Doing

[00:00:35]Kellan Finey: well, feeling feeling like the minority out here at being the only west coast guy on the show today,

[00:00:40]Andrew Ward: you got the access to nature.

So you know, a little bit about.

[00:00:43]Bryan Fields: I think to steal off a common land force. I think it’s east coast best coast, I think is what he said.

That’s the way I heard it. Okay. Before we get into it, Andrew, can you kind of give the list? There’s a little bit about your background.

[00:00:58]Andrew Ward: Yeah. So I’ve been a writer. [00:01:00] Based for about five years now.

I’m a freelance writer work with some notable publications currently include Benzinga high times business insider started writing for a new psychedelics publications coming out soon called psychedelia. I’ve also written for some of the top brands in the industry. Not going to name them just cause I don’t know if they want to be named out, but you know, some notable brands that if you’ve been in some of the major markets, especially in the west coast and some starting on the east coast have worked with them as well as some up and coming spots, advocacy groups, things like that, kind of tried to keep a diverse background in the space graduate in 2008, with a degree in creative writing and was told, I was never going to be able to use the degree because of the recession.

And I was able to use the sales and marketing jobs that I had for a few years and actually leverage it into what ended up becoming the cannabis job and. Yeah, since then, it’s really grown into a great career. It’s still pretty surreal. The art of marijuana advocates. My second book came out in 2021. I wrote my first book cannabis jobs in 2019.

So yeah, it’s all been kind of a blur and it’s really awesome to be here talking about

it. So tell us a single moment or a defining moment in your [00:02:00] life where you realized you wanted to be in the cannabis.

So, when I wanted to be in the cannabis industry was right around 2017. I probably a couple of months back, I’d been working at a startup that really didn’t pan out well it was paying well, but aside from that, it really didn’t live up to any of the expectations that I had real clear writing on the wall was that we were going to part ways, but I.

The hell with it. We’re going to ride until the wheels come off and we’re gonna, you know, do a best effort, but we’re also going to have stack the money and prepare for this freelance career that was going to be embarking on. I got laid off January of 2017 had a little bit of a nest egg. So I spent the next two months kind of trying to figure out what sectors I want it to be in.

I was kind of. Feeling it out. I hadn’t had enough time to really prep and find the industry I wanted to be in. So I ended up defaulting back into a lot of areas that I’ll read new startups, tech, things like that, really, you know, nothing wrong with them, but they just really weren’t appealing to me.

Weren’t really making me happier stimulated. It was just kind of, it was just harder to find work. And then probably around month, two and a half three, I was, you know packing a bowl like I usually do in the evening, just kind of kicking back [00:03:00] and you know, it wasn’t. But I saw an interview that I think it was Dave , who was doing it.

And basically he said something along the lines of, you know, find something that you love and find someone to pay you for it. And I was thinking, I was like, yeah, I’m trying to do that right now. And I was like, well, what do I love? And, you know, I pretty much had the bowl in my hand. And I was like, oh shit, this is an opportunity right here.

I’m sorry I curse on this, by the way. I thought I just wanted to make sure. So I was like, oh shit. Actually, it has an opportunity for it and it might actually be a little early. So I started feeling it out and I, you know, I’ve been reading a lot of the publications, you know, I think at that time it was civilized high times.

Mary Jane were kind of the go tos and a few occasional news stories here and there. I thought, you know, I could get involved in this and kind of bring over my sales and marketing experience as well as with my journalism background and kind of, you know, see what we can do with it. And that’s where it all started out.

And I started cold emailing, like a, would a business development leads. Basically it said it was like, I have two articles from when I wrote at AOL on weed. Are you willing to take a low-income shot on [00:04:00] me as a writer? And I booked my first job was a rosin press company. Out of Colorado, ended up working with them for about four years.

Yep. Yeah. Colorado Kellen shout out. They were, they were awesome. Great client. I actually wrote for cannabis publication, cannabis culture in Canada, and then the raspberries company got me introduced to pot guide, which was my first us publication in Colorado also. And it kind of took off from there.

And, you know, ever since then, it’s kind of been a whole fun journey for the last five years.

[00:04:29]Bryan Fields: Great story, especially when we’re describing with the ball in your hand, right? Like realizing like, this is, this is what I love. This is the industry. And I guess my question follow-up would be like, when you told people or shared with them that you were taking a journey and it was early, right.

From an east coast standpoint, you’re telling them you’re going to be in the cannabis industry. What were the types of looks that people are giving you when you were expressing that

[00:04:48]Andrew Ward: people thought that was a terrible idea? So it was a combination of either they thought I was going to go to jail for being a drug dealer.

Somehow even now I explained it was writing and it’s nothing related to it. Other people thought it was just another step in, you [00:05:00] know, a bad mental health just a spiral. You’ve been laid off. It’s the winter time. Are you okay? Like you’re really entering the space that has no prospects, like, or do you want to sabotage your career?

Like, it was really like, concerns about my decisions on a mental health or professional level across the board. I’ve always had a good intuition on myself. You know, I’ve made some mistakes along the way, like we all have, but you know, I also just feel like when I know something is right, I just go with it.

And I told everyone, I was like, just give me six months to a year. And I can start getting a proof of concept going. And, you know, I also told people, I was like, as much as I know, I want to get into marijuana right away. And I did, I also knew that there wasn’t gonna be enough money unless I really struck lightning, you know, right out the gate and you know, was able to do it.

And I wasn’t. So it probably took about two years before that. So I was really working in a couple of different spaces. So I’ve worked in, you know, HR. Tack, you know, staffing those sort of areas, more traditional fields. And I think that started to make people realize that this is actually a business plan.

And by year three, when it finally accelerated, they’re like, okay, well, we’ll stop criticizing

[00:05:58]Bryan Fields: you like in the [00:06:00] beginning. And they’re like, that seems like a crazy idea. Now. They’re like, yeah, we knew it was going to be great from the beginning edge

[00:06:05]Andrew Ward: cannabis.

[00:06:05]Bryan Fields: It’s an emerging

[00:06:06]Andrew Ward: market. Yeah, I’m, I’m sure we’re not too far away from people being like, I was the one who told you to get into the cannabis industry.

It was like, yeah, sure. Okay, cool. Yeah.

[00:06:15]Bryan Fields: Just read receipts. None of those were actually true, but I think that’s the sign you’re onto something, right. Is when people start pushing back like you.

[00:06:22]Andrew Ward: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I’m in any time there is a setback along the way, like, you know, anytime in business freelance, anybody who’s managing their own clients.

When you lose a client, you know, you kind of go into a little bit of a spiral and trying to figure out what you do. And the w I really started to know which people in my. Tight circles. Got it. And didn’t get it when I would have my back. And so on which ones we kind of try to offer advice or how they respond.

I was dating someone at the time and she told me, he was like, well, maybe you should just go back to the office. And I was like, you know, I get where you’re coming from with that. But if you know me and my drive on this, you know, That that’s not an option for me because cannabis in the office was not something at the time really that was taken much shape outside of, you know, [00:07:00] some of the west coast states.

And, you know, just the freedom as a writer, as a creative, I’m not against going back to an office one day, but at that time there was just no way that that was making the right sense for me. So over time, you really started to see the people that kind of understood and went along for the ride and kind of understood that this.

Going to be a journey and that, you know, it’s still ongoing and you know, those are the ones now that I like to have in my corner. Yeah.

[00:07:21]Bryan Fields: And I mean, back then, I would assume we were in the first inning now we’re probably like in the bottom of the first

[00:07:27]Andrew Ward: or second year. Yeah. It’s funny though. The people that think we’re in like the seventh or eighth, it’s like, no, no, no, no, no.

We are. Nope. Not at all.

[00:07:35]Bryan Fields: Yeah. We’re still missing like major, major markets coming online and we still don’t have like any of the normal infrastructure that most businesses and industries just take for granted like banking, for instance.

[00:07:47]Andrew Ward: Absolutely. Yeah. It it’s hilarious too. Well, sadly hilarious. The way that some people like we’re going to have it all done in the next five years and we’re going to have it all regularly rabbit it all figured out.

I was like, go talk to anyone in the alcohol industry and ask how things are going on their space. You know, [00:08:00] they’re still fragmented 80 years after prohibition or 80 plus years after bro. You know, cannabis is a good chance of if we’re like, have it all figured out before we retire from the industry, then we will have done at a really quick pace.

Yeah. Which doesn’t seem like we’re really moving at that speed. So just enjoy it while we’re here.

[00:08:16]Bryan Fields: So you’ve written over 500 publications,

[00:08:19]Andrew Ward: I think. Like 700 bi-lines it’s a padded a little bit because there’s a whole tangent go on. So I won’t do it. But a lot of companies do content scraping where they’ll take the content from one partner and then put it on, on their site.

So that’ll count as a byline for you. You won’t get paid for it, but you know, they’ll use it. So that’s kind of had it up. So it’s. 500, 600 original articles. Seven, 800. By-lines now in cannabis. That’s incredible. Yeah. So

[00:08:46]Bryan Fields: I, this is my question for you. So, which topic that you’ve written about has surprised you the most.

[00:08:52]Andrew Ward: Hmm, in terms of surprise. I don’t know. I would love to say it was the most effective series that I’m doing on prisoners, because [00:09:00] I would love to be surprised about the process that those people went through or are going through. But that really actually is pretty par for the course that the system kind of screws them over and sticks it to them.

You know, I think the thing that really surprised me more than anything was the response out of COVID, you know, it was the uncertainty, what was going to happen to us? Are we going to get laid off? Are we going to see regression? And as soon as the essential status. You just saw the whole 180 on expectations.

You know, there were a few people that were maybe warmer to the idea that we were going to end up in that area. But you know, the kind of like what you’re saying, a lot of people was like, oh, I told you getting cannabis. There were a lot of people in COVID times, early on were saying, you know, we got to get out.

We got to figure out we got to pivot. What are we gonna do? And to see the response on the staffing side, the job side, you know, the industry altogether. I think that was what was really most surprising. Really pleasant surprise for sure. But I didn’t, you know, just five years ago getting into this space, I wouldn’t have thought that we would have been there by now and, you know, just to see the response we had after the panic that it momentarily set

[00:09:54]Bryan Fields: in, it was great.

Carolyn diamond. There was that a defining moment for you as well, obviously COVID was, was hard for [00:10:00] all of us. Was that something that you were surprised with? The industry’s kind of bounced.

[00:10:03]Kellan Finey: Yeah, I think it was the first time that you saw like government support for this space, like openly. Right. And there’s just been so many times being in the industry where you talk to people and you’re like, oh, I’m in the cannabis industry.

And at least from my experience, people are like, oh, so you just grow. And I’m like, no, I actually don’t even know how to grow any weed.

[00:10:24]Andrew Ward: I’ve never done

[00:10:24]Kellan Finey: that before, but just to be like, stereotype like that previous, and then to see like stage response and having it be declared essential across the west coast mainly right in the adult use states was phenomenal in my opinion.

I mean, it was just a complete 180 from. Cultural acceptance now everyone’s like, oh wow. It’s a real thing. It’s here to stay. And, and all the support was phenomenal. What was your opinion on that, Brian? Over on the, on the east coast, seeing that?

[00:10:51]Bryan Fields: Yeah, so obviously the pandemic was challenging and in the beginning I was a little more dependent on alcohol than I’d like to publicly [00:11:00] admit, but times were tough and things were really stressed out.

And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, You were leaning on things you need to lean on. And I think the defining moment for me was telling was when you sent me the care package, which really changed my perspective because I’ve had on and off love and hate with cannabis. When I’ve had some bad products were kind of sent me down my anxiety on a rabbit hole, and then you kind of send me some of the lower one to ones and.

Rejuvenated my love for the products, because I think there’s major misconception out there that like high THC is everything that everyone consumes and that everyone’s looking to just to get blitzed off their face. And for me, I didn’t like that feeling. What I love about cannabis is like the creative respect, the fun, the enjoying the ideas, like the free flowing, the energy that gives me an and that’s not for me is not the high THC.

So that was a big moment in my life to where I kind of commuting on cannabis. And it was there for me where I didn’t have to wake up in the morning after. Wow, like crushed an entire bottle of wine. Good for you, Brian, but also with a headache. So it was a tough moment.

[00:11:57]Andrew Ward: You know, I’m working with a bunch of clients and that’s really a big narrative [00:12:00] that they’re trying to get across now is that, you know, THC is important, but it’s not the only factor, you know, low dose is really great as well as, you know, the entire whole plant profile.

Really, it depends on what you’re seeking and, you know, THC is, it’s kind of like this outdated metric that we use, you know it’s just one part of the whole equation to it. Is there a big concern with the THC caps? Because you know, for people like you, one to ones are awesome, but you know, there’s medical patients that could need those high doses.

And, you know, those caps are really going to be a problem. And all they’re seeing is the reaction of, you know a recreational user quote, unquote recreational user shouldn’t have a hundred plus milligram product or something like that. But, you know, It’s a big wide spectrum and there’s a lot of education needs to come from it.

And, you know, hopefully COVID will have taught people that a little bit, I think on the, on the public side, we’re getting that. But with lawmakers, it didn’t seem to budge the needle at all.

[00:12:49]Bryan Fields: I think it’s money driven that why they’re

[00:12:51]Andrew Ward: pushing that concept money driven, but also I think fear, I think it’s a lot of it is that a lot of lawmakers don’t know anything about cannabis and they’re being told whatever [00:13:00] their lobbyists and whatever they’re.

The people in their ear are telling them. So, you know, if you told them cannabis was moldy and gave you cancer, you know, if you don’t know anything about it, and that’s what your circle saying, you’re going to believe those sort of laws, you know, someone comes in there and tells you, you know, THC is the driving force for what’s causing, you know, cannabis, intoxication and the effects of cannabis.

And we don’t have to worry about anything else. So we should cap everything at 50 to a hundred milligrams. a product It makes sense, but you know, you would also expect lawmakers to be better and actually read and understand, but yeah, that’s too high of a bar of a threshold for commercial right now, I suppose. I mean, it’s

[00:13:36]Kellan Finey: tough too, because early stages in Colorado, there was a hard time.

With like quality control on animals. Right. And you have one or two stories that came out where some recreational user, first time trying it go to dispensary, purchased an edible and then had a freak out and the cops were called and it made the headlines. Then that’s what the politicians are kind of planting their flag on.

Right. So [00:14:00] it’s, it’s challenging because you do have these two spectrums of consumers, right? You have the consumer. Uses regularly and could probably handle much higher caps. And then you have the soccer mom who you really probably don’t want to eat a hundred milligrams. Right. So, so like where’s the balance there, you know what I mean?

It’s a really hard target to hit with one with one arrow.

[00:14:23]Andrew Ward: A hundred percent and yeah, I don’t even know if you can hit it all with one arrow. You know, it’s such a large demographic of consumers needs, like you just said, you know, just those two points alone, discover one area of it. You know, one of the things I would love to see is more public education on ratios and dosing, you know, like Brian said, one-on-one is great.

But one of my favorite things, I love telling people that aren’t too aware of the cannabis space is, you know, if you’re new to cannabis, Before trying out a product is really good to have a CBD product on hand, whether it be a sublingual or a smoked product, be available or flour, because it can help offset the effects of it.

You know, I stopped short of telling people it’s essentially a [00:15:00] kill switch. Imagine, if you could get drunk and drink a glass of water and it actually would negate a lot of the effects or another drug. There really aren’t many that have that. And you know, those freak out moments. Sure. Those high dose pro like products, you know, you don’t want them to get into the hands of the soccer moms or the newcomers or people that don’t react well to it.

But if you would also educate them and said, Hey, you know, Bring a CBD pen with you and, you know, just smoke on this. If you feel the effects are too long, you know? Yeah. Maybe one or two people ended up calling the hospital still, but that will even drop down that low number of people that were reporting those.

So I think it just comes down to public education, but again, lawmakers don’t know anything about the bill for the most part. So unless it’s, you know, Blumenauer or a handful of the other ones that actually know what they’re talking about, we’re going to see what the hell they put them. But like, to

[00:15:45]Bryan Fields: kind of follow up on that, like no one kind of bats, an eye when the same soccer, mom drinks, five bottles of wine.

And then once it gets, find a car, right? Like, no, one’s like, well, we should have educated her on the fact that like, that was a bad choice decision. People are adults. And if you’re going to make adult decisions, you should [00:16:00] probably know what you’re doing in those instances. And you’re right. Like there’s this massive stigma behind it and all these other issues.

From an educational standpoint. Like, I don’t even know where we start. Right. Because we’ve done some analysis on like CBD THC, especially here on the east coast. And there’s such a, I wouldn’t say misinformed, but such a lack of understanding. The industry as a whole people byproducts and go, will it get me high?

And they’re like, what’d you buy? And he goes, I bought a CBD product from the gas station and it’s like, no, we know she shouldn’t get you high. And he’s like, someone’s like, well, I took it. And then I got high. And now you’re wondering, you’re like, was it the placebo effect? Was it type of product? Was it the person just telling themselves this there’s so many layers to this.

I guess, Andrew, where do we start from an educational standpoint?

[00:16:41]Andrew Ward: Yeah. You know, I think what you just said is so true, because I actually had a friend who did the same thing, bought CBD products from a gas station. They actually work. You know, it’s such a dice roll. You know, when you were saying now my first thought was regulation.

You actually have to have legalization regulation to have that in place because once you have that in place, then we have some uniform codes and then we can actually start setting up the street. [00:17:00] Otherwise it’s all about on the public. And, you know, there has been some great works for advocates and, you know, writers and, you know, some company is in the media space.

Like a lot of people are putting together an effort to educate folks, but we only have a certain amount of a reach. You actually have to have the government behind it. So, you know, they want to talk about how, you know, cannabis is problematic. It’s like, okay, well legalize it or decriminalize it at the very least and put together information campaigns and put together all this stuff to get out to the public and, you know, talk to them about milligrams talk with them about.

THC is just one part of the subject. You know, you’re not gonna be able to reach everyone and it’s going to be a large campaign and it’s not always going to appeal to everyone, but by putting that sort of information out there, we’ll definitely start to tackle the information gap. And, you know, maybe in a few decades the cage, we won’t have to put together these materials, you know?

I mean, if someone reminded me, what was it click it or ticket, but finally we got people to start putting their seatbelts on, you know, it’s just these small sort of things that you might not think actually work that come together. So I don’t know. You know, standardization and putting other campaigns actually could be the most effective way.

Yeah. And I think

[00:17:59]Kellan Finey:[00:18:00] decriminalization provides potentially could provide funding for a program that could certify budtenders, right? Like their CPAs, their CFAs. I know those are very drastically different certifications. Right. But providing a standard like tests that are accreditation program for the budtenders would be a game changer in the whole industry, because then any consumer that goes into a dispensary nationwide at that point, It’s going to talk to someone who at least is on the same page as someone out in California, who on the same page as someone out in New York.

And they’re all going to be communicating similar information from what’s going on with these products in terms of GHG and CBD, and then the whole entire terpene conversation as well. So I think that decriminalization legalization is the first step in building those kinds of programs from an

[00:18:46]Bryan Fields: educational state.

I, I think that was awesome. I kind of wish we can cut that out and steal that as you’re saying that I was like, dude, that’s right, perfect. You’re right. That a hundred percent has to happen. Right. There has to be like a general [00:19:00] understanding and general framework so people can kind of be licensed. I mean, I don’t know particularly, but I think there’s one for like, if you’re a bartender, you take some sort of like test as well.

To kind of accredit yourself towards this understanding and you’re right. Like it’s only a matter of time and some company likely will do something like that and probably come a really successful.

[00:19:18]Andrew Ward: Yeah. You’re starting to see some companies, you know, get into the space of trying to make cannabis yeas and some stuff like that.

So they’re kind of dancing in their periphery. So it kind of, I can see like a serve safe, kind of like what you’re saying, become one of the first things, how to handle cannabis and then branching into more of a deeper education sort of thing. It only makes sense. You know, it’s a product so readily used by the public and it is a medical and recreational product.

So you might as well get the informed folks behind it and only make sense. I think

[00:19:43]Bryan Fields: that’s the most exciting part for me personally. And thinking about the cannabis industry is that. Essentially cannabis will operate. Like all of the other industries they’ll have all the same type of like certifications and testings and steps and steps.

And here we are in the infancy and talking about like, oh, this has it. And this industry and this emergency, and we know someone’s going to [00:20:00] come out in the near future grade this, and it’s just the, as if you’re an entrepreneur, like this is the most exciting time to be in a space like cannabis, where you can really lay the groundwork to build something that can have lasting right.

[00:20:12]Andrew Ward: Yeah, this is you know, a generational opportunity. I don’t think we’ve seen something like this since the.com bubble. And I think this is going to obviously have a lot more strengthened security behind it and that I can’t really recall much else in a long time since then. So yeah, it’s a really great time to get into the industry and, you know, just learn and get in.

[00:20:29]Bryan Fields: So let’s kind of switch gears here. The art of marijuana etiquette, sophisticated guide. Yeah. Yeah. Where’d the inspiration

[00:20:37]Andrew Ward: come from my editor. So I tell people I have a very non traditional route that I think a lot of people think with books. And this is the case with a lot of books is you pitch, you get a literary age.

You get connected and then you get a big advance and then you write a book. That’s not what happened with me at all around year three, when people stopped criticizing me for being a cannabis writer, I think the first book really helped. [00:21:00] They this publisher, my publisher Skyhorse they’re a subsidiary of Simon and Schuster until they got bought by penguins.

How the hell that breaking water works out now, but Skyhorse reached out to me and basically said, you know, we’re looking for a book on cannabis jobs, and this is the same process with marijuana etiquette. So basically they were like, you know, we got this thought on an idea for a book. Are you interested in working with it?

And I said, yeah. And we started talking and brainstorming. With marijuana etiquette, they originally had this idea for kind of doing it more comedic, sort of, you know those Regal sort of fancy etiquette teachers from the old like 1900 days. And we worked at tone for a couple of months and day one of writing it.

I basically sat at the computer and I was like, this is going to be a terrible if I have to write this. So I contacted the editor. It was just almost like. I can either give you the advanced back and you go find another writer or you can let me write the book from the perspective of, you know, a person in the cannabis space who knows a bunch of people who has a bunch of experience.

And I can, you know, get opinions from those folks and myself and give you a book from, you know, the, on the [00:22:00] ground, in the actual community sort of thing. And thankfully they, they went with that and they let me run with it. And yeah, we got to work on it from there. Yeah, it was a fun process from there because then it was just kind of filling in the gaps, you know, thinking of all the standard rules, then the rules that I wish had been discussed really checked a lot of blog posts and other books are written on it.

Mainly Lizzie post book that had come out while our book was in production and, you know, kind of assessing and making sure that we were kind of going into an area that I thought wasn’t really going to be covered by everyone. Else’s and hopefully that was the case. Who do you

[00:22:30]Bryan Fields: intend to read the book? Or who do you think is the correct audience for as P like people who consume cannabis, people who are interested in cannabis?

So

[00:22:37]Andrew Ward: I think it’s a combination of two things. I think, you know, anybody who loves cannabis books and community related things it’s kind of something to snap up and have as a coffee table, book, bookshelf book, you know, kind of take it out some through it that sort of. I also think it’s really good for the more of the newcomers, the one-on-ones the, you know, the people that want to possibly get into cannabis, but might be overwhelmed by it or don’t have a community themselves for it.

So, yeah, it’s kind [00:23:00] of a fun semi serious. Also semi informative, sort of look into that. So really geared toward the amateurs, but also keeping in mind the OGs, the legacies, as well as just the people that are coming up and helping shape the industry along the way. And kind of giving a nod to all of them, but really keeping it on a simple tone that wasn’t going to get lost or anyone that didn’t really know much about the plant just yet.

[00:23:20]Bryan Fields: That’s perfectly said. And when I started kind of reading and going through it, I had an envisioned for what I thought it would be like when it says like etiquette and, and like a sophisticated guide to the highlights and kind of went in thinking it would be like that and was, was so different than I thought it was such a warm, easy read with.

Like the personality really came through on the pages and it’s fun to be. Sometimes in cannabis, you can do that where you can really body your spirit into the writing. And I think it really comes through because it’s, it is informative. And it’s funny too. Some of the cliches, you kind of dive into like puff, puff, pass.

Never like leave the circle, which I thought was really funny and I different interesting way to kind of communicate the information.

[00:23:56]Andrew Ward: Thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah. It’s, you know the way I looked at it was, you know I didn’t want to make it [00:24:00] too overwhelming. I didn’t want to make it too hard. You know, I just wanted to make it a fun read.

I kind of modified the Hemingway rule of write drunk. Edit sober, definitely wrote high yet. Semi sober. And that was kind of, you know, the first couple of rounds then, you know, we refined refine it further on, but you know, the first couple of rounds, I was chock full of grammar errors and, you know, the syntax was even clunkier than it was right now because it was really just, you know, trying to get into that spirit and try to have fun.

And basically I was trying to think. Basically, if I was smoking a joint with you guys in a room and you were asking me questions, it was kind of how I wanted to put it that way. And then from there we just refined it and, you know, shout out to my editor, Jason, he did really good. Cause every once in a while I’d be like, okay, that made no sense whatsoever.

You got to he’s like you were definitely spoken too much there or that. I also have these weird things in the book. I don’t know if people noticed that, like I tried to put in nonsense references. I worked in the R and B group T at TLC, like two or three times. And those are kind of like in non-music entertainment references to like, I think I put them in a hiking chapter at one point, you know, it was just kind of like, I’m stoned.

Let’s have fun with this. Like I [00:25:00] want, like if I’m reading a book, what kind of random bull crap is going to pop up? It’s going to make me laugh or at least like, what the hell is this person thinking. Yeah, that was kind of the tone I was going for. So I’m glad you got that. I love it. So

[00:25:10]Bryan Fields: when you were researching it, did anything kind of surprise you or, or kind of different than you originally thought based on the origin of any of these topics?

[00:25:18]Andrew Ward: You know, I’ve, I’ve been asked that a lot and, you know, I would love to say that there was, but there really wasn’t a ton. I mean, after being in, you know, just a regular consumer, I got into it a little late compared to my friends in high school, who did I got into college. So I, by the time I wrote the book, I was 33.

So I had about 15 or so years just consuming with different groups of people, you know, from. State cities, stuff like that. And then working in the industry gave it a different another layer on top of it. So really there wasn’t too much, you know, aside from maybe the international perspectives, international areas, you know, there’s so much different, you know, nuances preferences to every region.

And then there are also some in the U S but we didn’t really dive in too much into that. So it wasn’t really eye-opening when it came to topics. So the one that did kind of open my eyes was. There was a [00:26:00] real split on tipping when it came to all the illicit and the legal side, 50% of the crowd was very adamant about tipping your bud tenders, as well as your delivery folks.

And then others were saying, you know, the prices are built in that they don’t have to tip and, you know, citing other reasons and things like that. So yeah, that one I thought was really interesting. And there was no

[00:26:17]Bryan Fields: clear answer. Yeah. I’m glad you brought that up because I wanted to ask Kellen’s opinion on that since obviously out in Colorado, things are really different.

What’s your template. So Colorado is

[00:26:25]Kellan Finey: unique. It kind of builds in this whole cause of the banking situation. Right? So when you go and purchase. A product and a dispensary in Colorado, you are in essence using an ATM with your data card. Right? So not since you put it in, it looks like same old, any other commercial story, you’d buy something that right.

Put your card in and then a debit withdraw. So then the, you pay a debit fee, right? And then the stores typically have to round up to the whole list number. Right. So they, and then they give you cash back. Right? So like the whole thing is like, say you buy something for [00:27:00] $70, you’re going to end up paying like 78 or $80 for it.

So then you end up with like a $5 bill. Right. And so like in today’s day and age, I’m like, well, what am I gonna do with a $5 bill? And so then I just like forces me into this situation and they’ll have like two jars. It’s like pick one, you know, Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever. And I’ll just like, I have to choose which one to tip.

So that’s my experience in Colorado because technically I always end up leaving with him cash. I’m just like, I’m just going to tip. So I always tip right now. It wasn’t the case always on like California, Washington. When I lived out there, it was a different experience. So we’ll see what New York, how it is in New York.

If they get the baking stuff figured out before it goes full

[00:27:40]Bryan Fields: adult yet. Can you expand on like that scenario? Because I think for some people who don’t really understand exactly what you’re referring to, because like you went to a dispensary, you bought products with your money and they gave you cash back.

Can you kind of share some more? Why that, why that is? Yeah, so, I mean,

[00:27:57]Kellan Finey: it may be a little bit above my pay grade from like the [00:28:00] technical portion of it from like how the whole financial stuff moves

[00:28:03]Bryan Fields: around the IRS lessons

[00:28:04]Andrew Ward: for

[00:28:04]Bryan Fields: our conversation.

[00:28:07]Kellan Finey: In essence, your doing an ATM withdraw from like an ATM machine, right.

And for their system to process it either it’s got to be like a metric glitch or has to do with how cause the ATM company is separate from the dispensary company. Right. So then you’re paying the ATM company $3 and then the dispensary charges, the ATM company X amount, right from like a balance sheet perspective.

And then they re they have to round up for whatever reason. So then they’re charging. The other company is 75. You’re only buying $70 worth of products. You get $2 back in cash. Right. And then the ATM company gets their $3 fee. Right. So that’s kind of the best way that I understand it. There’s probably someone who’s a lot

[00:28:54]Andrew Ward: more educated.

Can I, can I just jump in real quick guys, if anybody’s listening [00:29:00] after hearing calendar, Can you please call your lawmakers and ask them to pass banking, at least regulations for cannabis because this convoluted mess would stop if we actually had some federal regulations,

[00:29:10]Bryan Fields: right? Yes. Yeah. I think that’s perfectly said, because I think like that scenario you described is so shocking to people, right?

When I went to Vegas to plan it it was, and I bought all these products. I was so excited and as we’re finishing the transaction, he’s like, I have to round up, but you’ll get cash. And I was like, sure, whatever that means through it. I’m just so excited to buy these products. And he needs me back $8 and I’m thinking to myself, I was like, I gave you a credit card.

You’re giving me cash back. I was like, am I toxic? Like, what is

[00:29:41]Andrew Ward: this stuff? Right?

[00:29:42]Bryan Fields: He’s like, well, we round it up. And then we had to do this and. This is very confusing. And I got after. I’m like, what the hell is going on here? And I think that’s the part that’s like so surprising is because people are like, well, it’s illegal industry in the shore, but something like this is a hurdle and just makes it harder.

[00:29:59]Andrew Ward: It’s also [00:30:00] a billion dollar industry and immediately one of the top producers in the world for the American market. And it’s like, you’d think at least they’d come around on the banking. Right? There’s criminal reform. The one I care about. And the Mo I think that the most of the industry should care about, but banking is essential.

And the fact of the matter is it’s a billion dollar industry and a closet, illegal space. That’s going to become federally legalized. Like, why the hell have we at least not gotten our stuff together and at least filmed some fix to at least get that through while we remedy everything. Yeah.

[00:30:29]Bryan Fields: That one seems like an easiest one, right?

At least it

[00:30:31]Andrew Ward: should be in mind. It would be a win-win for both parties and maybe that’s why they don’t want to do it because they don’t want to make each other look good. I don’t know. The two party system is a whole mess for me in, in and of itself. And cannabis regulations is snagged up in it, just like everything else right now, even the IRS

[00:30:47]Kellan Finey: is complaining too, because they’re really receiving so much cash from these companies.

And they’re like, we don’t have money counters. Like this is the 21st century. Like everyone pays electronically. Like, what are you doing? Bringing me a [00:31:00] briefcase. They’re like,

[00:31:00]Andrew Ward: I’m paying my tax. We all need to collectively just roll up to Congress with the IRS and everyone just like, can we get something done here, guys?

Like, can you leave until the next couple of hundred of you figured now? I don’t know. Obviously it’s not going to happen, but like, it just seems like such a common sense thing that at this point, Yeah, we’re still here. We’ll we’ll get there. It’ll be fixed soon. But yeah, when I don’t know what it’s going to be like in New York, I almost could expect to see them like selling water with like cannabis as a gift and like large donation tip jars is the actual cash.

It’s not like we’ll find a way around it to make an easier process because new Yorkers don’t have time, but stuff.

[00:31:34]Bryan Fields: No, I’m the idea of it being moved back is just kind of, it’s just a daunting thought because like we’ve already passed it. Everyone’s like, okay, great. When can I get the products? And it’s like, not for six months.

Maybe not

[00:31:44]Andrew Ward: for longer. Yeah. Meanwhile, Arizona, it takes five months and they can get off the ground and then they’re doing

[00:31:49]Bryan Fields: well. I, I wonder, like from an east coast standpoint, it’ll tend with all the recent kind of cluster states passing it once that first one kind of figures it out and goes, this is the date.

I bet you, everyone gets their act together [00:32:00] really, really fast because if not, you’re just going to see money transfer. Across state lines pretty quickly. Absolutely.

[00:32:05]Andrew Ward: Yeah. Once your neighbors start open up the market, you’re in trouble. I mean, that’s kind of surprised when New York hasn’t done already with Massachusetts, but we were talking about it before, you know, New Jersey once they do it, I don’t know what new York’s going to do because Pennsylvania is knocking on adult use and they’re killing it as a medical market too.

So it’s knowing pressure on New York and, you know, Cuomo, maybe a hole, put it through. Desperation. As you know, every time he gets into controversy, cannabis seems to get a fair piece of legislation passed. And so, I don’t know, maybe it will do that to smooth things over this time.

[00:32:34]Bryan Fields: Do you, by the time this comes out, things will be really different for

[00:32:37]Andrew Ward: him one way, or I know, I know, but he, you know,

[00:32:45]Bryan Fields: August 4th, just to clarify, it’s August

[00:32:47]Andrew Ward: 4th at this prediction. So Trump and Cuomo in my mind are very much the same. They’re New York brash kind of asshole politicians. And the fact that Biden and everyone is telling Cuomo to resign, I think will mean he’s not [00:33:00] going to resign. He’s going to dig his feet in.

I think it was going to be a mess. I hope I’m wrong, but I, Como is very, very, you know, a politician and he’s much about himself. I, my God says he’ll still be there. We might have some cannabis legislation accelerated through because of it. I don’t know. I don’t think so. At this point, to be honest with you, I think.

He’s got himself nailed to the wall. We’ll see what happens though. He’s he’s going to stick around I think, but I’ll

[00:33:24]Bryan Fields: make sure to cut that whole thing if he does go bad for him. So it’s just perfectly,

[00:33:29]Andrew Ward: oh, well here. I’m good. I’m glad he’s gone. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect.

[00:33:37]Bryan Fields: Perfect. So let’s let’s switch gears real quick for a quick rapid fire

[00:33:43]Andrew Ward: Q and a.

[00:33:44]Bryan Fields: Yeah, let’s do it. I’m gonna go Andrew first then calendars. Eating the Roach after a session gets you higher.

[00:33:51]Andrew Ward: I’d say true, just because it has an edible effect. I’ve never done it though.

[00:33:55]Kellan Finey: I had one of my good friends I lived with for like four years in college and he [00:34:00] ate it every single time.

And that’s what he squared by. So I’m not true.

[00:34:05]Bryan Fields: I don’t know if it makes you a higher, not they in college. They made us food Tang. And I don’t know if that’s like a real saying where you felt like, shoot it down your throat. I don’t know what that means. Hopefully it’s nothing bad. Cause I don’t know what that means.

Just thinking about it now. It’s probably bad to say that without knowing Right. Just as that’s the bad thought. But yeah, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone either. It didn’t taste good. And it was like a blonde, it got stuck in my throat. It was a terrible experience. So I would say don’t do it. If someone asks

[00:34:28]Andrew Ward: good, this flavor,

[00:34:30]Bryan Fields: best snack for hosting a cannabis get together

[00:34:32]Andrew Ward: amongst.

Oh shit is rapid-fire. I don’t know. That’s tough. I mean, I’m just going to go with my favorite and go with spicy chili Doritos. They’re not going to be the best choice for the room, but I don’t know what to give everyone and I’ll eat the shit out of it. John. I love the

[00:34:48]Bryan Fields: munchies guys like that has everything.

The spicy munchies has everything inside of it. It is the best combination bag on the planet and has the right name because that’s the way you do it. They knew their market. They knew their market and [00:35:00] they crushed it. Right. You can grab those at gas station a hundred out of a hundred times. Be happy with the people are going to be stoked.

And go the

[00:35:05]Andrew Ward: spicy version. Wait, can also though shout out to Ben and Jerry’s, cause they’re essentially the ice cream version of munchies and they’ve got me through many, a stone sessions. Yeah.

[00:35:13]Bryan Fields: That is my, my go-to now is ice cream and it is incredible. I make the homemade Sundays. It don’t do better than that.

Oh yeah.

[00:35:20]Kellan Finey: I’m picking which one I want when I’m

[00:35:21]Andrew Ward: at the store. Oh yeah, that’s a tough one. Like a three for 10 special deck.

[00:35:30]Bryan Fields: The pecking order. If you, if you roll it, you spark it true or false. Yes.

[00:35:35]Andrew Ward: That is the rule in the book. The only time that that is possibly changed is if someone else is hosting and S and the non hosts rolled it, then kind of up to you to, to decide. I would

[00:35:46]Kellan Finey: agree. And by hosting, do you mean like providing.

I would say if someone gives like, cause I’ve had, I’ve been in groups where like someone’s a much better roller, but then it doesn’t have any cannabis. And then the, another person provides all the cannabis for the [00:36:00] blind or the joint. And so then he’ll give the honors back to the individual.

[00:36:04]Andrew Ward: Yeah, I agree.

I was thinking host is the person, you know, whose roof, if it’s like the house that you’re in. But I think, I think also provider, yeah, those two kind of transcend

[00:36:14]Bryan Fields: the roller. I was told one time it’s bad luck. If the person who rolls it doesn’t smoke it. So I wonder if that’s true, but the next question I ask will definitely demonstrate it.

Not being true. New dog has a professional blunt roller in his staff. Are you aware of any other celebrities or influencers who have.

[00:36:32]Andrew Ward: Yeah, Waka Flocka did that years ago. Not really. Yeah. Waka Flocka. I think it was the first one I heard talking about that. I think that’s great. I mean, you’re rich, you smoke a lot of weed.

Edit what? A 50 to a hundred K jobs roll the joints. Like if you’re that good at it, man, shit. People are making millions off of video games. You might as well be making money off of rolling joints. So good at this point. Yeah, I’m terrible. I’m terrible at it. I buy the money. If I have enough money to pay for someone to full-time [00:37:00] role.

I would do that in a heartbeat. Yeah. I

[00:37:02]Bryan Fields: mean, that’s, that’s the way to do it. My question would be how much does someone like that get paid? Right? Like, and is that like a 24, 7 job? Or are you like an executive assistant? Because if Snoop is a club leaves at 4:00 AM and is interested in a, in a joint.

Kind of get out and

[00:37:17]Andrew Ward: network. Yeah. I don’t know if you can pre-roll them for Snoop because then the freshness goes away. So you can’t be that efficient. I actually do know. I weirdly this Waka Flocka story stuck in my head a lot, I guess since my early days that he was listing it for 50 K a year and I was like a couple of years ago.

So he’s got a little bit less notoriety. The market’s gotten bigger. I don’t know. I mean, for a Snoop joint roller, depending on the amount of time, 75, so 120 K a year could be. And this one says

[00:37:43]Bryan Fields: 60 grand for soup. That was pretty spicy. It’s pretty low. I’ve thought about at least six figures, but pretty fair,

[00:37:51]Andrew Ward: fair.

But is it on call? Like Brian was saying, like, if you’re getting calls in the middle of the night, like we need joints, we can’t pre-roll I don’t know. You know, is it a nine to five joint rolling [00:38:00] situation or. You know, I don’t know. You gotta be like, from the

[00:38:03]Bryan Fields: time or a humidor, like for like the joints, right?

Like just keep all them in there and keep them clean. I stepped Rogan came out and said something. I wrote almost fault the article and said, like, it would save him a ton of time to have someone on his team that do that because how many times he’s gone and going through some. And then he’s like, oh, it’d be perfect time to have like a joint here.

And then he has to stop and do that. He’s like, it would save me hours every single day. If I had someone on my team doing that. I wonder if that becomes a popular kind of role, like chief of staff where you’re really as cheap of role. Yeah,

[00:38:31]Andrew Ward: honestly one of the best business tips I got when I was growing, my writing business from friends was you know, when you have the money, right.

The first things you need to do is automate the processes that you don’t want to do that are going to save you time and money. And I mean, Seth Rogan, if it’s going to save him hours of the day and you know, weeks like, hell yeah, invest that money. You’re going to make that well back then, you know, someone of his caliber, it makes perfect sense to do it.

I think I would do that job for free though. Well, if he’s offering money, I’m definitely not. No for sure. All day, [00:39:00]

[00:39:00]Bryan Fields: probably the perfect situation, the way it could be way worse. Switch gears back to like the normal topics, biggest misconception in the

cannabinoid industry for you.

[00:39:11]Andrew Ward: I think we kind of touched on him a little bit already.

I think THC being the primary driver factor THC caps are a big issue. And I think the idea that, you know, things are going to get sorted out really quickly and easily, you know, even if we were to legalize in the next two to five years, which some people are predicting. It’s still going to take decades to figure out all the regulations and the hurdles and the back and forth to it all.

So I think, you know, people think that we’re in this time where things are all going to get done, and we’re going to wrap it up real soon in, in, in a way that’s true. But at the same time, like we were saying before, this is going to be going on a lot longer than we probably are all going to be operating in this space.

[00:39:48]Bryan Fields: Your experience in the cannabinoid space into one main takeaway or lesson learned pass onto the next generation, what would that.

[00:39:56]Andrew Ward: Cool man, show up, get involved previous to [00:40:00] the canvas space, being legal. The only way you could get a job was being trustworthy and showing up and introducing yourself the way I got into a lot of the space meeting advocates, as well as business folks was going to trade events, going to networking events, smoking at lounges.

You’ll go into a process to rally as you know, don’t overlook any of it, you know, get involved, go there. Even though the industry is becoming. You know, more of a mainstream commodity, a serious thing. It’s still got all those elements show up. Your resume is not going to be the only thing that’s going to carry you.

Get involved the industry, show your face, show you really care. It’s the best way to certify yourself.

[00:40:34]Bryan Fields: Really well said. Prediction time, 10 years from now, the most popular way people will consume cannabis. Is that the, a bowl blonde dab rig the capsule, a tablet, new invention. We haven’t gotten back.

Let’s see production.

[00:40:50]Andrew Ward: I think we’re going to go beverages. A lot of people are banking on beverages feeling beverages. I mean, we got psychedelic water came out, you know, I think we’re already seeing other, you know, substances [00:41:00] and compounds getting in there. A lot of people look for familiarity.

To consume. One of the early beliefs was that the elderly were going to shift towards pills. And I think that worked to a certain degree, but I think edibles really proved to be one. So yeah, my gut says beverages are probably going to be a way edibles will be a close second, but also I think flour is going to have for a very long time, it’s going to have its market share.

And I hope it doesn’t fade away more than, you know, at least a 25% of the market holds onto it and, you know, keeps on to the culture. But it’s definitely going to shift, I think, to. I agree with, with all of those

[00:41:30]Kellan Finey: statements. I mean, I see flour maintaining a significant market share for at least the next decade.

And granted, if you can still purchase flower that’s unadulterated, if it turns into most flower being consumed into as joints, and then they can start to place additives into the flower, like you saw in the tobacco industry. Right. I could totally see. Even a larger decrease in market share for flour. But I think the next big product category [00:42:00] is going to be beverages or edibles beverages.

I think probably over edibles, a little more, just because of when most people go to let loose and become inebriated. They’re familiar with drinking something to that loose and become a need created. So I see that similarity just like Andrew was saying. So I’m going to go with that. What about you, Brian?

What are you.

[00:42:20]Bryan Fields: For all the listeners out there that have listened to our podcasts for everyone knows talent, stole my stuff verbiage. I’m gonna take a different approach because this is taken. And I intentionally left that I can usually have that. The capsules, I think what you were saying about like familiarity aspect is so, so important.

And I think when people go to envision like a quote unquote, bad audio, A medical product. They’re used to taking some sort of capsule form to kind of help them relax or to suit a need. And I think that’ll be a common stay for people where they don’t really think about it. I think the flower aspect will still have its popularity, but I think [00:43:00] it’ll, it’ll push towards a different Democrat.

More of the, the true traditionalist. And I think that the older generation that is looking for kind of a one-to-one or like a multipurpose variety of cannabinoids to kind of help them with their arthritis or whatever needs. I think the capsule idea of what will help that, because I think there’ll be easier for them to get mentally past.

[00:43:19]Andrew Ward: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s that comfort, you know, it eliminates a big barrier. A lot of people don’t want to smoke, you know, if they, if they’ve never smoked before they never vaped before, but they’ve always, I everyone’s had a drink. Everyone’s had a snack, everyone’s had a pill, you know, those are the comforts.

They’re going to know it. It’s going to be a lot more comforting, but just to jump into Kellen what you were saying too. I think the big thing in New York,The One, I’m excited to see is consumption lounges. You know, one of the things we put through is a lot of licenses on consumption lounges. And like you said, people are getting, letting loose on beverages and things like that.

I’m really interested to see the intersection of how many consumption lounges end up replicating looking like bars. So the consumption lounge space is so wide open that we’re seeing so many different varieties. It almost seems like restaurants where some are almost. [00:44:00] Fast casual. Some are high brow, some are more, you know, all different across the board.

And basically and I wonder how that’s going to affect bars and how much that’s going to end up replicating bars. But yeah, it’s another reason why I think beverages are going to be the dominant force along the way. And then if you know, CVS Rite aid and all of them end up getting into cannabis, like a lot of people think then I think pills will end up becoming very close by.

[00:44:19]Bryan Fields: You think that guide bars will be able to serve both. If they can get those licenses.

[00:44:24]Andrew Ward: I think eventually I think bars are going to eventually want it because they are going to see a lot of the district decrease into their consumers as time goes on. I mean, look, I love Buddhists. I love being drunk. I love the effect in the moment, you know, but you can overdo it real quick and your night can go to hell.

And the next day, we all know what a hangover feels like. And as you get older, they only get worse. We cannabis, you do sometimes feel a hangover effect where you’re tired or sluggish the next day. But you know, it’s never really all that bad. And going back to, like I was saying about CBD, you know, you can use that to offset the effects to a certain degree.

There’s different elements to it. And I think that bars eventually going to. [00:45:00] Really bad by this, you know, besides from people that really love alcohol, you know, a lot of people are going to opt for cannabis lounges and the alternatives in their varieties they have. So, yeah, I think possibly by a decade you could see bars asking to get cannabis integrated into their stuff.

Yeah.

[00:45:14]Bryan Fields: That’s, that’s so, so important because like you were saying, like the hangover effect is such a nasty one and for alcohol to me, like, I love it also, but the next day hanging over, it makes me wonder, like, why do I, why do I do this to myself? Like I can consume all of the THC products I want and I.

Feel as awful as this, the next day. And you know, if right now you were like one choice, one product, the rest of your life to buy boost. Sorry. Goodbye.

[00:45:37]Andrew Ward: A hundred percent. I mean, every time I’ve been hung over in my thirties, I’ve reached for a bowl to help me get through it. I’ve never the next day after smoking too much pot of reach for a bottle of booze to make me feel better.

Cause he imagined, oh my God. Yeah, that’d be terrible. So yeah, I think we’re heading in that direction.

[00:45:55]Bryan Fields: So I guess for all of our listeners that want to get in touch. You know, tell us where they can [00:46:00] reach you and how

[00:46:01]Andrew Ward: they can learn more. Yeah. So I’m social media. You follow me at the Cantor writer on Instagram and Twitter.

I’m kind of kicking around on tech talk, but you know, if you want to follow a dead account, go on there right now. You can follow me on my website. I am Andrew ward.com. All my social media is have a link tree where you can find more of my stuff too. And then yeah, if you have any business pitches, articles, or you want to talk about doing anything, feel free to reach me at Andrew at I’m Andrew Ward.

And they want to go

[00:46:26]Bryan Fields: by the book. So you understand what the highlight is and be sophisticated

[00:46:30]Andrew Ward: with your experience. Yes, please. Thank you. I’m terrible at plugging my book. So thank you for doing that. Simon Schuster, Amazon. There’s a bunch of links where you can buy from other bookstores and other independent sources too. So go check it out. I appreciate all the support. Thanks for your time, Angie. Thanks a lot guys.[00:47:00]

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Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

Bryan Fields (Twitter: @bryanfields24) and Kellan Finney (Twitter: @Kellan_Finney) discuss the next big companies to enter the Cannabis arena with Matthew O’Brien of Four PM.

In today’s episode catch insight into

  • Companies that are currently investing in Cannabis
  • Value and importance of the Budtender
  • Educating and helping customers find their cannabis experience
  • How the US legalizing Cannabis federally will impact Canada
  • Uber and Amazon transporting Cannabis in the future

The goal of Four PM is to provide readers with valuable industry insights so they can stay up to date on the complex and rapidly changing modern cannabis industry.

Sign up to receive Four PM Newsletter on their site: https://www.fourpm.co/

Don’t forget to follow The Dime Podcast (https://anchor.fm/thedime) on Instagram and Twitter


[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and

tangents. What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime has always got my right hand, man. Tell him Finney here with me. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Matthew O’Brien managing editor, founder of 4:00 PM.

Matt, thanks for taking the time. How are you doing today?

[00:00:25]Matt: I’ve never been better and I appreciate the invitation.

Yeah. We’re excited to dive in

[00:00:29]Kellan Finney: Kelly. How are you? I’m doing well, just enjoying the summer out here in Colorado. Are you Brian doing

[00:00:34]Bryan Fields: well? I didn’t have a great night’s sleep last night, but water under the bridge.

So let’s get after it. Not before we kinda dive into the hardening questions. I’d love to kind of get a little background about you and how

[00:00:43]Matt: you got into the Connecticut space. And cannabis really started back in 2016. I was actually an art at the time, and I read a book on the economics, which laid out a rather pragmatic argument as to why we as a sort of spices or species or civilization.

Should effectively embrace this [00:01:00] concept of legalizing all drugs. And at the time I was growing up in a pretty rural part of Donegal, which is in the Northern part of Ireland and very sort of dogmatic viewpoints on a variety of subjects, whether that be, you know, people attending church sort of women’s rights, et cetera, et cetera.

So this was like very much in conflict with my sort of worldview. And I just couldn’t deny the merit of the arguments that were being made quickly realized that if I want them to sort of pursue this path, Arden was not the place to do so. Realize that Canada was on the path to legalize cannabis in the upcoming months.

And then, yeah, in fact, we decided to pack up my things with a relatively short amount or a relatively smaller, minimally headed off into the great north van. I haven’t really looked back since

[00:01:40]Bryan Fields: 4:00 PM. And you kind of share a little bit about

[00:01:43]Matt: what that is. Yeah, for sure. So for myself, Extremely fortunate.

I’ve worked in pretty much every single vertical of the cannabis industry started off about 10 being have managed stores have managed supply chains. I’ve worked with every single person that operates in the industry. I’ve probably had some sort of relationship with them in [00:02:00] my prior occupations. And I often just felt that there was an absence of a publication specifically for cannabis professionals.

I feel like there’s a lot of good publications out there. For sort of consumers, whether that be like a Leafly or one of the others, would that be like the commitment and as a cannabis professional, I just felt that someone needed to be able to summarize the most relevant events that were occurring for me as an industry professional, such that I could continue to progress in the industry with an informed perspective.

And it was honestly just one of these things where by nobody else seemed like they were going to do it. So I just took it upon myself to sort of pick up that.

[00:02:31]Bryan Fields: Yeah, I love it. And I guess from my perspective, there’s like you were saying tons of opportunities in this space and tons of journalists and yours is one that I look forward to on a regular basis.

And it’s one of those where if I don’t get it that day, I look, I grab it the next day. And it’s always one of those where I really commend what you’re doing, because it’s not an easy challenge to kind of take on, obviously selecting a topic and then just proctoring through some virtual content. So I guess an easy question would be.

Take us through the approach from a day-to-day standpoint, you know, when you sit down, you’re like, all right, I’m gonna write about this [00:03:00] topic. How do you kind of go through that?

[00:03:02]Matt: So my sort of trade secret is that the first three hours of my day is really just looking at every single publication in the industry itself, you know, using platforms like Reddit using platforms like LinkedIn, Twitter, just trying to get a sense and kind of get my pulse on, like, what are people talking about?

What’s what’s happening in the industry from a sort of global perspective. I consider myself to be someone who’s like pretty well plugged in. So we’re often not, if something’s going to happen, I’ll have someone informing me. I had to tell him, you know, it should be on your radar. There’s going to be a press release coming your way.

There might be like a deadline on when you can talk about it. But usually I kind of know what’s going to happen ever before anyone else, because I have those relationships in place. So first three hours a day is really just trying to do like a pretty broad analysis of what’s occurring in the industry as a set from a global standpoint.

And then. For the next hour thereafter, it’s really just about refining. Like what do I want to talk about putting myself in the shoes of a cannabis professional, if I’m hustling, like every single person that works in this industry, what information do I actually need and really emphasizing that the need as opposed to want.

And [00:04:00] then, yeah, from there, it’s really just about me writing it in such a way. Whereby when someone receives this, they want to open it. They’re able to understand what I’m saying. There’s no corporate bullshit. We’re just telling it exactly.

[00:04:09]Bryan Fields: Yeah. And then at the end of every article you have the, and I’m probably going to say it wrong, who our take on it, which I think is the perfect way, because so many people kind of describe what’s going on, but the reason I come back is it’s not so you to summarize articles, I read I’m looking for your perspective and I enjoy that.

So the one I wanted to dive into today was one that I thought was really interesting. The built by the budtender theory. Can you kind of shed some light on that, what that means and kind of how that came about.

[00:04:34]Matt: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So my, my humble opinion is that there’s a huge disconnect in the cannabis industry from an executive level versus out of what’s actually happening on the ground.

I feel like there’s a lot of people coming into this industry from regular, the CPG industries, whether that be the alcoholic beverage industry, whether that be tobacco. And they’re trying to use these sort of frameworks to. Understand like what’s happening in cannabis. But my perspective is that I think there’s a lot of shortcomings in that approach.

I think that granted, those industries have [00:05:00] similarities, but at the end of the day, like they are miles apart. If you think cannabis is tobacco or alcohol, then you don’t understand cannabis. And that might sound like a cynical statement. But that, that to me is just a. And I feel like a lot of these individuals are very overdependent upon spreadsheets, no offense to, you know, some of the data providers that are out there, but at the end of the day, like there is only so much insight you can extract from these reports.

Whereas if you’re a budtender, you’re on the grind, having conversations with consumers on a day-to-day basis, you actually understand what’s happening in cannabis. A lot of times. Very far ahead of time before it will ever arrive at any of these people’s desks. So my perspective is that I think there will be many very successful cannabis companies built by budtenders based upon the insights we start gathering in lifetime.

And that really sort of speaks to how long it takes for these insights to arrive on these people’s desks. And I think even when they do. They didn’t want to understand it for what it is because they don’t understand the industry. And the only way you’re going to understand the industry is to understand the consumer.

And my perspective is that if you want to understand the consumer, we’re going to kind of this retail store for, you know, [00:06:00] a week at the very least, ideally a little bit more than that. Take the time to understand what consumers. And then work back from there. I think that’s

[00:06:06]Bryan Fields: perfectly said, I just want to push back on the Excel sheet nerds out there.

Those are kind of like domains we operate in. So Google hasn’t see with that, but totally understand what you’re saying. Kelly kind of take that, dive into that.

[00:06:20]Kellan Finney: I do, honestly, Matt, we’re going to be great friends for sure, because I got started by working in the industry. Right. Spent a lot of time in the lab, worked my way up last minute.

Ethicacy cultivation, vertically integrated and all these things. And the biggest mistake that I saw in the industry once I started consulting was you would come up with these groups that are very business oriented, as far as the team members. And they’re taught, you’re having conversations prior to building facilities.

And they’re like, well, if we just change this one, Variable in the Excel sheet, look how much more money we can make. Right. Right. And they don’t understand that. Like actually, if you change that variable, it’s [00:07:00] gonna create. A really low end product and you’re going to end up not selling it, or you’re going to have all these issues and the actual growing or cultivation of it.

If you start cutting corners here. And so there’s a ton of nuance items that go into designing these companies that I think that a lot of them right now are flawed and they’re, they’re going to spend a ton of money learning the hard way. And so I do think that budtenders potentially, or. Individuals who have kind of worked their way up from the ground up in these organizations.

And hopefully they get promoted to positions of decision-making power to kind of help drive these these shifts, if you will, because I mean time and time again, and at least in the U S in our kind of adult and medical market, I have a ton of friends that are down in Florida that say that they quit purchasing products from the dispensaries and floor.

Because they can get better products from the black market, because they’re just all of these massive facilities that they’re cutting corners. And they’re like, Hey, well, if we just add [00:08:00] another 500 square feet to each bloom room, look, we’re going to grow 20 times more biomass. And now we’ll make more revenue and our shareholders will be happy, but it turns out when you add that extra 500 square feet.

You encounter all these issues with pest mitigation and proper light distribution and watering. And then that creates a ton of problems in terms of the actual grow cycle of the plant. And so it’s just systemic, right? Like they just don’t understand that cutting corners in specific areas right now caused ton of issues downstream from a processing production.

And so I couldn’t agree more with that, that statement as far as I think that the really, really successful cannabis companies in 2050 years are not going to be the top 10 companies right now, in my opinion, for no more

[00:08:44]Bryan Fields: reception as well, much one pack in so many different directions. So I guess my first one would be like organizations.

I’m not so familiar with have been educational policies that go on with the budtenders to kind of walk through, you know, making sure that they are armed and equipped with the correct information. But [00:09:00] at the same part from a leadership standpoint, obviously being with your customers and hearing what’s going on is critical.

And I would believe, I mean, you’d see it all the time. Kim rivers is always at the grand openings of all of these and, and I don’t believe, really believe it’s maybe just the phone rocket needs a good photo, but I’m sure she’s there just to kind of see and get a pulse for what’s happening. But at the same part, you know, she can’t be in all a hundred Florida dispensary.

You can all the time, she got to rely on her leadership structure in order to make, you know, informed. Decisions and recommendations. And it does start with the bud tender when the customer comes in and understanding that like, it’s not about promoting just the products that we have. It’s about promoting direct products and telling, and I kind of go back and forth all the time on that.

So I guess Matt, back to you is like, how does bud tender with being kind of pushed with management to push a certain type of product, but no, Internally it’s other products probably best for this customer. Like how does he balance that perspective when dealing

[00:09:57]Matt: one-on-one with these customers? It’s a great [00:10:00] question to be like, I don’t know, is there a one right answer or one wrong answer in the sense that it really depends upon what you value most?

Like if the manager and the store doesn’t appreciate the fact that you’re willing to pay, you’re willing to play the long-term game. And what I mean by that is you’re actually trying to develop a report with the customer, such that your customer attention increases. Money they’re actually spending in your store will increase correspondingly.

If they’re not actually willing to recognize the Marist, that approach. There are some times in any occupation whereby you just have to, you know, suck it up and implement the approach that has being asked of you. Ideally, as I said, we do have an organizational structure where by they’re actually open to receiving feedback.

I E if you feel the approach is flawed, that the C-suite is open to receiving, you know, critical feedback as regards the limitations of the approaches they’re putting in place. I think it’s really just an individual question. Like personally, when I was a bud tender, I actually had to leave the first store I worked with because I kind of clashed heads with the manager on the basis.

That to the very point you just made, he was asking us to recommend products, which he himself was telling us he would never smoke. And [00:11:00] I found myself in the situation. I was like, oh, you’re asking me to jeopardize relationships. I’m building what the customers, despite the fact that you yourself have said openly to every single member of your staff, that the products are, you know, dirt quality But yet you just want to move them such that you can, you know, get our award from your manager and so on, so forth. So I think it honestly just comes down to like, do you, do you believe in yourself, do you believe that if you leave the store, you’re going to have to get employment elsewhere? I personally think that the basketball tenders are in very short supply and I don’t think any of them will ever have difficulty getting employment.

If the store that we’re working with, isn’t actually willing to implement an approach whereby they put the customer first. I do. I

[00:11:36]Kellan Finney: think that that’s brilliant. I want to add one other thing too, is that I think in the United States, there’s it differs state to state too, right? In Colorado. That problem is so prevalent that I have specific dispensers.

I’ll go to. And I’ll talk to about tenders and in Colorado, most dispensers are vertically integrated with the grow, right? And so every single time, I pretty much say no to the first three or four products they recommend [00:12:00] because it’s products that they are trying to push. And then like once we start talking, they open up a little more and they get a little, little more warmer and then I can actually see exactly what products they’re trying, what they like.

And, but if, if I wasn’t aware of that, I, they would just guide me down the wrong path. Right. So we’re like Washington, when I was in, in the state of Washington, they, the retail dispensaries can’t be vertically integrated. They can still provide like incentives to the bond tenders. Right? Like certain brands can be like, oh, like, if we hit these numbers, I’ll give you some product or X, Y, Z.

I’ve noticed that it’s, it’s a lot that disparity is not nearly as prevalent in the state of Washington because it’s by design versus like a state of Colorado. So I think it, it is a case by case study even further down in the United States, at least.

[00:12:45]Bryan Fields: And then this is maybe just more of like an inexperienced, but just, I never been a bun tenor.

So are they paid hourly or are they commission-based saying, look, if you do X amount of total sales, you make commission on top, is it, is it structured? Like.

[00:12:58]Matt: I think they feel it’s quite like it [00:13:00] very much very state by state. I think it all just comes back to the regulations that they put in place. I know in Canada, it is entirely done in terms of RD compensation, but there are states out there where by you do get compensation, depending upon the sales, which you, you reach such that there are incentives in place for you to push products that you yourself might not actually get.

Yeah. And that’s

[00:13:19]Bryan Fields: where it really, it really gets tricky. And just a little story today when we were having you on, I went into the New York store for a medical purpose because I wanted to ask questions like that. I wanted to bring up with you and what my experience was, Barry non-pushy. I asked him questions.

He pushed me in the direction, but he didn’t recommend products aggressively where in some of the west coast states, they were a little more aggressive with like, this is the one you should go for. This is at, and it was always the highest. Price product. So I wonder like Dylan was saying, it probably is bearing and state to state.

And of course, New York being just medical only, probably very different experience with the bud tender style. So I guess the next question would be how build trust [00:14:00] and the blend, the education and the experience between the consumer and the budget. Because obviously the perspective of the individual is going to be not the perspective, but the end result of the experience is going to be influenced depending on what they know, what they don’t know, assumptions in that experience.

So how, how does that experience work? Because like, sometimes people walk in and ask questions like, Hey, I want to get stoned. Right. And they want to get a certain high THC product, but maybe the budtenders, like you might want to consume more like a one-to-one ratio. So how does, how does the bud tender kind of blend the educational level of understanding the consumer and how to communicate that information?

[00:14:37]Matt: I think you got to pick your battles. Like it’s a lesson, the hard way, which is that no, two cannabis conservators. Ideally, if someone’s coming in, they’ll have an openness to receiving information that sort of conflicts with their existing perspective, like one such being the whole indicus that be the hybrid dichotomy that exists in the industry as much as I would like to think that it’s only a matter of time until that sort of fades out of existence.

The reality is there is a cohort of cannabis consumers who are so bought into that, that even [00:15:00] in the mentioning that this might not actually be what they think it is, is enough for them to walk out the door. And I had that happen to me once and I just realized, okay. And certainly incidences the customer is always.

And I say that’s kind of a contradictory statement in the sense I’m saying in certain incidents, the customer’s always right, because more often than not, you know, you do have to sort of test the waters, just like, you know, when you’re, when you’re taking a bath, like you kind of dip your toes in the water and see is it too hot?

And if the water’s nice and warm, you know, you can go when it’s too hot and you probably don’t want to go in for a little while yet. So the way I approached it, You know, you’re not trying to completely change someone’s perspective and that single a ton of your having assumed that you’re going to have 10, 15 in Congress with this customer on an each one of those.

And Congress provided them with a small snippet of information, which over time will accumulate to change their perspective on the subject. So it really is all about personalization, understanding what the customer wants. If someone comes in and they’re saying, you know, The highest THC indigo. I don’t think it’s the right time in the right place to tell that person that they’re wrong.

You just have to acknowledge the fact that, okay, what you’re asking for is a high THC product, which is going to [00:16:00] produce relaxing effect. Yes. Okay. You don’t necessarily have to tell that customer that indicas it’s, the teams are bullshit. You just have to understand what is their actual desired experience we cannabis.

And then it’s your job to recommend products that are ideally going to provide that best express. Yeah, that’s perfectly said.

[00:16:16]Bryan Fields: And I hope we, if the Endeca sativa part, because I wish you’d would just say that louder and louder, because it is so ridiculous that that continues to be, oh yeah, I got this great sativa and it’s like, okay, dude, like how many times are we going to talk about this?

So I’m telling you from your perspective, right? Like, we’ve talked about like the high THC, we’ve talked about the terpene. I mean, is this all part of the experience of a bud tender kind of communicating from educational. Working backwards through you’re looking for a relaxed feeling. So here’s the kind of path we’d recommend you to take.

[00:16:45]Kellan Finney: I mean, I hadn’t heard that and I’ve never been a bud tender, but I think that that’s absolutely brilliant. And I got to applaud your soft skills for me being able to come up with that. Cause like a lot of people that is like, absolutely. One-on-one how you deal with like a disgruntled customer or anything like [00:17:00] that.

Like you take it away from what they’re attached to. And look for the underlying reason. I think that that’s brilliant. The only thing that I would add to that is that as science catches up with the black market, the more and more genetics that are run on these strains in terms of trying to trace the lineages back and try to either support or disprove the whole sativa hybrid IndyCar.

I mean, a lot of it is just shenanigans. When you really get into the actual genetic information, that’s coming out of some of these strains and, and there are strains, of course, that are higher and linalool are higher than Mirasee turpines. And, and that would be a better way to kind of organize the effects from a medicinal standpoint that the cannabis plants provide, but the sativa hybrid Endeca then needs to go.

It’s just, I mean, I understand that it was a good categorization system. In the olden days. Right. But at this point with more science, we need to come up with a better letter to classify the [00:18:00] expected consumer experience with what’s going

[00:18:02]Bryan Fields: on in those plants. We know when that like really became

[00:18:05]Kellan Finney: popular. I don’t honestly, it’s been my whole life, honestly, when I was in that 12, maybe 15 years ago in high school.

I never remember hearing sativa hybrid Endeca it has to be something. Came about with legalization. I’m not sure. Are you sure Matt, you know, Matthew,

[00:18:23]Matt: it’s a great question. And to be honest with you, like there’s still a lot of debate as to what those origins of those terms are actually representative of like my, my, I was gonna say my limited understanding is that it’s just a plant structure of cannabis plants.

Like an indicator is normally shorter and height with broader leaves as a TIVA is typically tolerant height with Natalie. So I think. I think we just got, I sort of tread carefully in saying that those terms do mean something, the way we’re currently presenting the consumers is just absolute bullshit.

Like let’s just call it what it is and the problem, and kind of not to go too far down. The rabbit hole is. We are starting off the relationships we’re trying to build with consumers based upon misinformation. And the end result of that is just [00:19:00] expectations that can never be fulfilled because we’re trying to tell consumers that this product is going to produce this outcome.

Despite the fact that we all know that that is absolute bullshit. And the problem then that then arises is that that consumer goes home. They consume that product with the expectation. It’s going to produce a specific outcome and say, for example, you know, Brian, Google home purchasing indicate you’re new to the cannabis.

If you’re consuming that right before you go to the bed with the expectation, it’s going to be relaxing. And then it’s actually producing a stimulating effect. You’re probably telling yourself, like cannabis isn’t for you. But the problem isn’t that cannabis has view. You’re just being told harsh information, despite the fact that we should know better at this point in

[00:19:34]Bryan Fields: time, that’s perfectly said.

And I mean, for me personally, I mean, it’s all right, because. At my house, my parents would often meet, say, Hey, Brian, like we know you typically don’t prefer the downers. So here’s some sativa. And I look at my dad and I’m like, why? Right? Like, what are we doing here? Like, you’re handing me something like someone you don’t really know.

So well, you bought off the black market and they told you this and we’re just passing rumor theory here. And it’s like, how many times are we going to take that approach and [00:20:00] say, Southern work anymore. Like, let’s actually go figure out what we’re looking for, because for me, like, I don’t want to have to be sliding into the couch and have my eyes closed because I’m so stoned.

And then I have to like put the hood over. So I’m with you. Like it’s very off putting and it’s about kind of changing the stigma and starting with the education, which from the east coast standpoint, we got a long way to go because we just haven’t had enough exposure. Who kind of what you were saying, like good experiences with budtenders who play such a, such an important role with kind of taking the industry and moving it.

So I want to kind of switch gears and bring up one of the points you said in our previous conversation, why Canada is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Can you kind of expand on that?

[00:20:41]Matt: Yeah, it’s a, it’s a rather controversial viewpoint, but I think Canada became the sort of darling of the cannabis industry by lack of choice.

In the sense that the only G seven nation that legalized cannabis, you know, every single fortune 500 companies looking at cannabis, and they’re asking themselves like, is this industry, is this an Israel we want to partake in which for a [00:21:00] lot of companies, the answer is yes, perhaps it’s a little bit too early for emotes, but the outcome of that thought process is that, okay, we need to sort of capture market share as early as possible.

And with the current regulations that are in place. And a lot of these companies being publicly traded, like they can’t actually invest capital into us kind of as a company. So that, to the earlier point, right. Cannabis became the darling of the cannabis industry by lack of choice. Right. To sort of expand upon the point that cannabis is becoming our Canada is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

We all know it’s only a matter of time until such point as the U S legalizes cannabis on a federal level. It’s going to happen. 68% of Americans are not in favor of legalization if they don’t. I think it just makes an absolute mockery of the premise of America being the. Free leaders of the world and it being a democracy because if 68% of people want something, but they’re not actually willing to go out and enact legislative changes, then, you know, is it a democracy?

I, I, on that basis, I think that us has to legalize cannabis. And at that point in time, we’re going to quickly realize that a lot of the early capital that come into Canada, Shouldn’t have actually [00:22:00] been invested in those Canadian companies. They should have been a little bit more patient and they should have just decided, okay, what is the right play?

I personally don’t even think that investing in cannabis companies that are heavily focused on. Cultivation is the right approach, more than happy to get into that in a later segment of the conversation, because my sort of contrarian viewpoint is that the future of the cannabis industry is not cannabis it’s cannabinoids.

And I think we’re going to see a completely alternative approach to the production of cannabinoids. So all in all, I think all of those billions of dollars that have been invested are going to be written down in the not-so-distant future. And they’re all going to realize that it was just lack of patients that ultimately was the sort of underlying root cause of that.

Yeah, it’s

[00:22:37]Bryan Fields: really well set in and kind of take it one step further. I think the fact that those Canadian companies are on the public, both markets make it more accessible because they can’t tell you how many text messages I get. And you say, Hey, I’m looking to invest in cannabis. Like I want to invest in like canopy or till, right.

And it’s like, wait times we talk about like, this is, this is where it is. And he’s like, well, where are those? And it’s like, [00:23:00] Still the same place. And then we kind of get into this conversation about like identifying the right ones and it just kind of kicks a tailing down the wrong perspective. And I wonder, like, I know big canopy is trying to come over.

Right. They talked about the acreage approach and they’ve made some sort of announcement that they’re going to be in here. I think by December, end of the year, I think he said that in, I mean, we’re halfway through 2021. Yeah. Well, I wonder if he’s going to need good on his prediction. So do you have any thoughts on if those kinds of statements that, you know, I think it was David Klein when he made those statements that he was going to operate in the United States before the end of the year.

Do you have any statements on that?

[00:23:34]Kellan Finney: I mean, at the end of the day, if they have enough money, then they could totally make it happen. Right. I am not super privy on how that would work from like a stock market perspective. Cause they went public on the Toronto stock exchange. Right. I don’t know how a company can transition from the Toronto stock exchange to say the NASDAQ.

I know that Tesla did it, but they were listed in [00:24:00] America to begin with. So that is way above my pay grade. As far as like transitioning from the Toronto market, that’s centered around Canada’s currency, right to the United States market. That’s centered around the U S dollar. Because I think that that is going to be the most.

That would be the biggest benefit from a monetary perspective. Yeah. You’re going to capture some sales, but that’s a long ways down the road, right? Like building infrastructure, launching a brand that could of course make that quicker from an M and a kind of perspective. Right. But

[00:24:32]Bryan Fields: sorry to interrupt. The U S players could buy the Canadian companies, like at a certain point, like they’re outpacing the growth.

It used to be where the Canadians wanted to come in and now it can be the other way where like, Hey, we’re the bigger fish now. So like you maybe,

[00:24:45]Kellan Finney: maybe you see a pull, something like time Warner and Yahoo did, right where time Warner came in and, and clearly Yahoo is worth significantly more money and they merged.

Right. But then the executives at time Warner ended up having [00:25:00] more power than Steve case did after everything was said and done. And then. Well, when behold, now you have the executives and the management team at Aurora who now has a very. Attractive NSO and that exact brand name, but the people that are running the show are the people that were running the show for Aurora.

Right? So there, there could be something like that. I mean, it’s just, there’s a lot of different avenues for them to take in terms of approaching the U S market and getting into the U S market. I mean, I think it’s a really, really long shot to say that they’re just going to spend the money, go in, buy a license and set up shop in America.

I think that’s going to have to be done in a much more creative

[00:25:37]Bryan Fields: fashion. So they want that. And I kind of want to switch gears because I feel like we’re just kind of speculating on unknowns.

[00:25:43]Matt: So

[00:25:44]Bryan Fields: between the Uber CEO coming out and saying, they’re going to consider Canada. The Amazon, which is big, big news, the NFL, the recent news of the Olympian, not like why are all these massive, massive companies?

I mean, apple announced with the iPhone, the the apple store, all [00:26:00] these massive companies don’t have to make these proclamations. Why are they.

[00:26:04]Matt: Think they all know what we know, which is that inevitably the cannabis industry is a, is a trillion dollar industry. And if you’re, if you’re a big company like apple, Facebook, Amazon, you know, take your pick and any of the trillion dollar companies that are already in existence, like you, you have to, you have to penetrate new markets rather aggressively such that you’re still considered a quote unquote group stock.

And at the point at which these companies start stagnate, are you either not actually expanding into new markets? People are just going to sell off their stocks in favor of companies that are actually growing at a higher yeah. So I think it’s honestly just a case of the economics of the cannabis industry is driving a lot of these decisions for Uber as an example, I’m sure they know flying well, that it’s only a matter of time until they incorporate cannabis into their portfolio of the goods that they add, that they transport.

I think that’s going to happen relatively soon. I would actually be very surprised if they don’t actually make a move into the Canadian market relatively soon. BC, which is a British Columbia should say, which is on the west coast. Canada, I think is right for [00:27:00] an entrance points by Uber because they could transport products on behalf of cannabis retailers in that specific market with Amazon.

I think Amazon will be one of the most important cannabis companies in the world. In a matter of time, the reality is they have all the distribution in place as is. All they have to do is then introduce cannabis into their market. It’ll be very interesting to see how they approach their entrance into the industry, but just based upon the investments that they’re making in cannabis reform as this, I think they’ve invested like a hundred thousand dollars, which ultimately for Amazon is pennies on the dollar, but you know, it’s, it’s a signal that they are actively investing in.

And companies like Amazon don’t make those investments unless they feel as though they’re going to get an ROI on that investment. So inevitably Amazon’s going to enter the industry. My prediction is that they’re probably going to do a medical play to start. And I think then over time, they’re probably going to introduce adult use into that framework.

But yeah, I think it’s just the economic state. They know that there’s money to be made and ultimately they are for-profit entities and it’ll be a huge missed opportunity if they don’t explore the idea of actually monetizing or capitalizing on that.

[00:27:57]Kellan Finney: Yeah, I think we were talking to some other [00:28:00] highly intellectual individuals and they, they just said that for Amazon, it’s just another, another brown box to ship.

You know what I

[00:28:06]Matt: mean? Which is kind of depressing, but, you know, I, I hate to, I hate to agree because there is something special about cannabis. Like the, the culture of cannabis is an extremely different versus that of any other industry. Like, and it, maybe another industry. People from across the world are actively communicating on platforms like LinkedIn and Twitter and sharing ideas.

Like have you ever seen employees at burger king, having conversations with the employees at KFC as the, you know, potential best practices or ideas, et cetera, it just doesn’t happen. So I hope that it doesn’t just become another drawing box, but if I was asked, I think you’re probably correct.

[00:28:41]Bryan Fields: Being in factor is good.

Oh, hard to do from Uber standpoint. Right. You can get your Uber eats, you can get your drizzly booze, and now you can get your, your canvas. You can get like the trifecta three and one, and it kind of put it back on, on Amazon. Like those are the types of small, small steps they’re getting announced to the world.

And for the [00:29:00] majority of the world, it’s nothing right. It’s another news. But I think for the people in this room and for the industry, That’s a massive, massive sign. We’ve talked about one of like the global leaders coming out and making a public statement saying that like, we’re not going to drug test anymore.

Now they’re going to start making, you know, financial commitments. These are all steps like you were saying. So that way. They will reveal themselves and be like, Hey, we’re in the space. People are going to be, oh my God, no way. When did Amazon come in? And we’re all going to be like, back in July in 2021, they started taking all these steps forward.

And like that’s where these small steps kind of combined these massive boulders with the movement of the hand. Yeah. Right. Any predictions on next big company to, to kind of make an announcement coming

[00:29:45]Matt: in? I think Google is going to make some pretty big announcements in the not-so-distant future. I’ve had conversations with creators on YouTube, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of alphabet, which is the parent company of Google.

And they have said in private that Google or alphabet rather [00:30:00] is actively reaching out to them, offering monetization on the platform for the very first time. What that suggests to me is that. The current conundrum of cannabis companies not able or being in it, their inability, I should say to access programmatic advertising capabilities of YouTube and all the other platforms, which are under the alphabet umbrella.

I think that’s going to change. And it’s very interesting for companies like Leafly and Weedmaps because albeit their advertisement capabilities. are Sophisticated. They are nothing in comparison to that of Google. So I think going to be the next big company that makes an announcement I’m at, I think they’re going to apple as a starting point in that they’re going to allow cannabis marketplace apps to actually sell well cannabis through the apps that have been listed on the Amazon store.

I think the next step is they’re going to make a more sort of broad announcement that Canadian cannabis companies are allowed to advertise on their platform and then pending the federal legalization of cannabis in the state. I think that us operators will then be able to access the platform. You think Google

[00:30:56]Bryan Fields: will bite them, killing those businesses?

You said? Or do you think he’ll fall off? [00:31:00] Cause how does that work? Because it’s really hard. I mean, it’s almost nearly impossible to fight a Titan like that ensure they’ve got a stranglehold on the industry now, like you’re saying as soon as a massive fish comes into the, to the waters. Against

[00:31:13]Matt: substantially different.

They doesn’t yell like history has a habit of repeating itself and use that as a perfect case example as to what happens. Like what they’re probably going to do is they’re going to scrape all the data, which is being accumulate on these platforms. And as a consumer, it’s all about removing friction, or I should say for a company it’s all about removing friction for consumers.

So as opposed to you having to click on Weedmaps and actually interacting with our platform, they’re just going to surface that information in the search bar. And that’s exactly the playbook we used the Kelly Yelp, but I will not be one bit surprised when history repeats itself. Yeah. I mean, Amazon

[00:31:43]Bryan Fields: did it with Allbirds, right?

They sell batteries. They scraped the internet for products that they can resell and they rebuild it and can’t blame them because obviously the end of the day data is king. But, I mean, it’s one of those where as these massive conglomerate just keeps blowing up, swelling up bigger piece of the pie.

[00:32:00] There’s only five or six companies, but that’s a conversation for a different time. I don’t want to take it too far down that rabbit hole. So the next topic I wanted to bring up is cultured cannabinoids. What do you mean by that?

[00:32:11]Matt: Yeah. This to me is probably the most interesting of all trends and the trend I probably spend most time are, I should say that the train that pay closest attention to in the industry, because.

To sort of offer a little bit of context before we dive into what culture combos are. I think it’s important to remember that right now, as an industry, we currently have access to two, maybe three cannabinoids, like then in the sense that we’ve commercialized CBD and we’ve commercialized TNC, it seems like we’re sort of on the path to commercialize CDN.

I guess you could make the argument that Delta eight has been commercialized. I think that’s a very short term play. I think a lot of those operators are going to fade out of existence because the regulators are going to make it as. However, there are about 180 cannabinoids that we know of. Now, the problem is the current genetics that we have make it such that it is very inefficient from a cost standpoint, to produce those [00:33:00] cannabinoids in a quantity that would actually allow for the commercialization of them.

Now, that is the, what I call the agricultural cannabis supply chain. We plant cannabis drops in the ground. They produce a flower. We extract cannabinoids from that biomass. Typically it’s about 22%. If you’re good at actually cultivating cannabis. However, what culture cannabinoids are is a completely, completely different alternative to the existing supply chain that we have in place.

So culture cannabinoids are, is effectively. We’re using fermentation tanks and we are using a approach whereby we are effectively using. Biosynthesis to produce cannabinoids, where this gets very, very interesting. And Ben, who is the CEO of a company called Solibri completely blew my brain on this topic because I was completely against the idea that a different alternative could emerge the cultivation of cannabis to ultimately obtain access to those.

But the approach which he presented to me is that they’re going to be able to produce these cannabinoids of a 10% of cost of what it currently costs today to produce cannabinoids and better yet, they’re going to be able to. [00:34:00] Each and every one of those hundred and 80 cannabinoids are referenced. Now, what that does in my humble opinion is that it completely changes the game.

At that point in time, it is no longer a cannabis industry. It’s a cannabinoid industry. Now I think there’s going to be like a small percentage of the market that will remain a cannabis industry. Ultimately, if you want to, if you are a consumer who has a preference would ride flower, then the only way to produce dry flower is ultimately cultivate.

However, I think we’re going to see a complete expansion of the market whereby all of the CPG companies. So like any fortune 500 company that has a CPG company is going to commit to the cannabis industry. And they’re not going to be acquiring cultivation facilities. They’re going to be working with these cultured cannabinoid companies, such that they can obtain access to any and all of the 180 cannabinoids that they want.

And then they’re just going to start adding them to their existing product portfolios as an ingredient. And to me, that is the future of the industry. And that’s why I like to say the future of cannabis is not cannabis. The future of cannabis is cannabis. Hey, good.

[00:34:53]Bryan Fields: Perfectly said. And I know this is bad audio, but Kellen has a massive smile on his face.

So killing one, pick up, take back to the next

[00:34:59]Kellan Finney:[00:35:00] level. Yeah. I actually saw a little pretext. I worked my graduate degrees in metabolic engineering. I worked on metabolic engineering. It’d be Kolai to manufacturer a molecule called a diffic acid, which is used to make nylon is the precursor for nylon.

So. I was a really, really big fan of the technology ever since I’ve been an undergrad. The applications are endless the couple issues that are going to have to be navigated before the consumer accepts cultured cannabinoids. And, and as far as the cannabis industry as a whole, I couldn’t agree more. I think that at the end of the day, Even hemp and the CBD companies are also have THC as an inventory product that they just can’t sell right now.

So regardless, it’s all going to fall under one umbrella in my opinion. But as far as cultured cannabinoid goes, there’s going to be a couple obstacles that need to be tackled. The biggest one that I haven’t come up with a solution yet, which of course, there’s going to be a lot smarter people working on it than me.

But [00:36:00] it’s going to be classified as a GMO. Right. And so you’re not going to have any access to the European market, unless you have significant lobbying that goes in to change those laws. Because at the end of the day, That molecule is being manufactured by a genetically modified organism, right? Whether it’s yeast or Cola, depending on how you want to navigate the, the IP and patent world, right.

That’s going to be one of the major hurdles that needs to be tackled from a consumer standpoint. The other obstacle I see that could potentially be detrimental to the culture of cannabis is right now, there’s only a couple of companies that can tactically utilize e-coli or yeast to manufacturer THC or CBD.

And that is solely based on the patents that they have on

[00:36:46]Bryan Fields: THCA synthesis. And CBDA so base.

[00:36:50]Kellan Finney: So the actual enzyme that converts CBG the precursor to either CBD or THCA CBDA, those are passed. So then you’re either going to [00:37:00] have to utilize some sort of CRISPR technology to generate a custom enzyme, to be able to manufacture that.

Right, or you’re going to have to go after a different capital. I didn’t. And there’s a couple companies in America. One is Criollo right. That I don’t know if I pronounce that. Right. We, we chatted with Jeff at gorilla and, and they’re actually doing CBG because of that exact situation. Right. And so what that tees it up for?

And I agree with you on this is that the fortune 500 companies are licking their chops for this week in their chops at this right now. And it’s because that entire process is patentable. So they can go out and start patenting these enzymes, and then they can own the process. And now big pharma has their means of running monopolies for 20 plus years.

Right. And when they have the opportunity to run monopolies, they find ways around the GMO hurdle that I mentioned previously. But that that’s where I think that it could be a big threat to canvas culture. And I mean, it could [00:38:00] potentially, I see it going this way.

[00:38:01]Bryan Fields: I see CBD and THC

[00:38:04]Kellan Finney: being solely derived from agricultural means.

Right. And I see the rest of the 138 plus cannabinoids, most likely being manufactured, either synthetically through like a biomimic Mammut pre-process that’s like your traditional organic chemistry, where they mix a bunch of stuff together and stir it up into that, like a potion, right. Or through.

Engineering the Surrey choli and then they’re going to kind of utilize a lot of those cannabinoids for pharmaceutical and medicinal purposes. Right. Which I’m not going to say if that’s good or bad, if there’s other cannabinoids that should be available from a recreational standpoint. Whole kind of situation looks like down the line, but those are definitely going to be some of the hurdles that will need to be crossed.

And I mean, I don’t think it’s, it’s an, if I just think it’s a win, especially if you look at Kronos and the amount of money they’re pouring it pouring [00:39:00] into biosynthetic means. And, and at the end of the day, the pharmaceutical companies see the opportunity to patent those enzymes and own that supply chain aspect.

And there will be money in it. So. It’s just a matter of when I don’t know exactly. I don’t have a great prediction on when that’s actually gonna kind of play out, but that’s, those are my opinions on the obstacles that, that technology is going to have to go through to be able to be commercial, commercially viable for

[00:39:25]Bryan Fields: conservators.

What sort of timeframe are we talking about for them? Because like, we have such a disconnect from a global standpoint, even like a domestic standpoint between the west coast needs. What type of timeframe do you think, Matt, are we talking about where these other cannabinoids are going to rise in popularity?

We did really interesting study where we found the massive difference from a search trend standpoint on THC and CBD based on location. And it was really surprising when you kind of correlated back to like which states were recreational, which ones are not. So, I mean, from an educational standpoint, like we’re already from a timeframe that you think it’ll be more.

Commonly [00:40:00] understood of this culture

[00:40:01]Matt: contamination from the information that I’ve been provided. I think five years is a pretty good timeline. And the reason why I say five years is that my understanding is that the company, which I referenced earlier asked lead by they’re going to start commercializing CBG at the beginning of next year now, because this is such a new technology and that there’s still a lot of R and D that has to be done before they can necessarily commercialize these products.

I think, I think they’re probably. Gonna take a few years just to actually reach scale whereby they can produce these cannabinoids in such a quantity that they can. Meaningfully supply the market based upon the demand for them. I don’t think there’s going to be any shortage of demand. Like if they can actually produce these molecules of a 10% of the cost of what cannabinoids are being produced at today, then to me, that is enough to drive consumer adoption of this approach versus the alternative.

I think, you know, brings up a fantastic point, which is, I’d say another. This particular sort of subsets there’ll be industry is going to have to overcome, which is that from a consumer standpoint, a lot of people have in their mind that, you know, [00:41:00] synthetic phenomenons are bad coming from Ireland, we were always told, never consume what’s called spites.

And a lot of people actually find it very hard to make a distinction between something which has produced the biosynthesis versus something, which is synthetic. So I’ll be at these molecules will actually be D. In reality, I’d say for a large percentage of consumers are going to have it in their head, that these are actually synthetic combines and the cause of all this sort of mass hysteria regarding the vape crisis, which actually proved to be actual synthetic cannabinoids, not biosynthetic and adenoids.

I think from a consumer education standpoint, there are huge hurdles that have to be overcome before you’re going to see consumers, meaningfully adopt them. So that’s why I say about five years. It could prove to be a little bit longer. But it would be very interesting to see then in Europe, if the same investments are actually made to produce these, you know, going to go with state of the art custom built cultivation facilities for cannabis.

Or whether they perhaps just skip a step, whether they, as opposed to building up those cultivation facilities, they actually just started to build out these fermentation times as opposed to necessarily pursuing that path, such that they just skip one step in [00:42:00] favor of adopting. What is a more sort of modern technology I’m going to take the

[00:42:02]Bryan Fields: other side of that approach though?

I disagree. I think if you could get a product for $21 or product for, let’s say $8. You’re not going to really look at the back and see BMO, not like I don’t think there’s enough information that can be consumed in one of these experiences where you can kind of go through it’s THC CBD, terpene understand type of product type, where it was grown, or there’s just too much going on.

So at least in my opinion, I think. We’ll be more trusting. I mean, people buy deed products all the time, off the internet and have no idea what is actually happening. Right. Like every time we talk to someone about that, they’re like surprised. They’re like, no, it’s definitely regulated. And I was like, what makes you think that?

And they’re like, because if I can buy it on the internet and I was like, it’s terrible, like silk road, right? Like that’s not how that works. That’s where I kind of, I, I challenged that thought and I mean, we count and I dove into this a bunch of times. I just don’t see. It’s just so much information to communicate in [00:43:00] such a tiny amount of time.

And that’s only one product, right? And I think price is such a differentiating factor when it’s a new consumer on only $1 or $8 substantial difference. And if, if they can drive that cost. I’m going to be willing to play game. I think,

[00:43:15]Kellan Finney: I think the cost is even more so if you’re looking at like CBC or even other cannabinoids that like are prevalent in less than.

0.1% in a natural cannabis plant. And now you’re able to manufacture it at scale with bioengineering, because like, you don’t have to grow it. You could literally make literal ton adenoid in, in a couple of days with this technology. And like, instead of like, okay, we planted the seed, like we’ll come back in 14 weeks and we’ll harvest.

And then we’ll cure it and then we’ll extract it. And maybe

[00:43:48]Bryan Fields: next, next September,

[00:43:50]Kellan Finney: we’ll have, have a couple of kilos for you.

[00:43:54]Matt: Fingers crossed

[00:43:55]Bryan Fields: of snow early frost in Colorado, right? Like fingers crossed nothing terribly.

[00:43:59]Matt: Yeah. Wrong

[00:43:59]Bryan Fields:[00:44:00] happens. Can you imagine that spreadsheet cell

[00:44:05]Matt: it is on that day? I will definitely vote in favor of moving towards the information we can extract from spreadsheets because.

It’s just obvious. I think to individuals like ourselves in this call, consumers are so price sensitive in the industry. And like, despite the fact that I’m not the biggest advocate of this whole idea of, you know, the highest tier, the highest ESE percentage products, the consumers don’t give a shit of, like my opinion, consumers are going to consumers are going to vote with their dollars.

And if someone comes along and they say, you know, there’s a GMO product, which is going to cost 50% last versus not a builder product I have. And you know, it was producing the cultivation of cannabis. I think we all know what they’re going to choose. There might be a very small percentage of consumers who opt for a different option, but I think long term, this has to be the future of the industry, if not for, you know, a failure on the part of these companies to execute and their already.

Yeah.

[00:44:49]Bryan Fields: And for consistency as well. So I think that was we could spend 50 minutes on that. Let’s take a different approach, Matt, your biggest misconception since you’ve been in the cannabis. [00:45:00]

[00:45:00]Matt: My biggest misconception is that we’re all in the industry can. Same reason. I think that there is a to kind of articulate that in a different way, this assumption that there is a culture of cannabis.

I think there is many cultures of cannabis. I think. For myself. I’d like to think I’m part of the culture of cannabis, where by I am much more interested in our patients receiving access to cannabis versus that of our companies making profits from the plant. I think that the new sort of cohort of people going into the cannabis are much more interested in cannabis from a commercialization standpoint.

And that’s not to say that I’m not, I am deeply interested in what’s happening from a commercialization standpoint, but if I’ve just started defining the culture of cannabis that I sort of recognize. It is this idea that, you know, we are a community, we are collectively seeking to change the world for everyone’s best interest.

My assumption was that everyone sort of shared those ideals. I think I quickly realized that as I said, there are many different cultures of cannabis. That is the one I recognize most with our self identify with, but I’ve just come to accept that. You know, very different motivations for joining the cannabis industry.

And I, I don’t [00:46:00] look down upon anyone who is coming into the industry, such that they can generate a dollar. I do look down upon people who are coming in to screw people over. That is something I have no tolerance for, nor will I ever have a tolerance for. However, that was sort of an assumption, which has recently been challenged.

And I just kind of came to accept that there is no single culture of cannabis. Rather. There is multiple that exist within the industry. You could sum up your experience

[00:46:20]Bryan Fields: into a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation. What would that be

[00:46:26]Matt: play? The long game? This industry is just getting started.

And I think there’s a lot of people who can make this industry with the intention of making a quick buck. I think this industry is going to change the world in ways, which we can barely begin to even estimate. Right. Honestly, I think if you’re in this industry and you’re willing to play the long game, you will be significantly rewarded as a result of that.

And that might mean, you know, taking a lesser down position, such that you work with a company who actually values your values and going to go back to the original conversation of, you know, not asking your staff to recommend products that use yourself with not [00:47:00] consume items like that. I think a lot of people are really in a rush.

I think a lot of people will feel as though if they don’t really sort of. Make the most out of the industry right now, they’re going to miss out on the chance to the reality is cannabis remains illegal in 99% of nations around the world. We are all going to look back upon these times and laugh at how nerdy we were and how, you know, we were overlooking the fact that it was just getting started.

So I think if you play the long game and you’re patient, and you’re willing to work with people who share similar values to you, I don’t see a world in which you don’t actually benefit from the. I guess the commercialization of cannabis, but just, just play the long game. Short term games are great, but unfortunately short term gains usually come at a cost.

So yeah, to play the long-term game. All right, prediction time, we’ve talked a

[00:47:42]Bryan Fields: ton about the importance of budtenders and the role that they play in helping consumers find the right product. In my opinion, for bud tender, to make an accurate product recommendation, the customer needs to be able to answer a few basic questions about their own personal experience and what they’re looking for.

Matt. What do you think is the most [00:48:00] important item for a consumer to know about themselves prior to asking a bud tender a

[00:48:04]Matt: recommendation that cannabis affects everyone differently? That to me is if we want to change the conversation away from the advocacy to the bill economy, that single piece of information is enough to completely turn the industry on its head in terms of phasing that out of its existence.

The reason why it’s at the intensity of a hybrid economy is based on the assumption that the same effect you have in the cup from a cannabis. It’s going to produce the same effect for that on myself, liquidity, beginning to realize that each of us has a pretty unique endocannabinoid system, the way cannabinoid and terpene profiles interact with each of us is very pro.

So at time, if I’m a consumer, you know, granted, I can take some of the things which has been offered from a bud tender from a quality standpoint, like as an example of keynotes about Pedro. And he told me that this product was high quality. I can take that at face value. However, if he was informed me that this product is going to equal this outcome, I would then sort of cross reference that with you.

That’s what affected you, but I know that cannabis affects everyone differently. So I have to sort of work through the process [00:49:00] of what is the right chemical composition of cannabis for that of myself. So I think that singular piece of information is enough to completely turn the industry on its head and finally phase out this indicative of economy.

[00:49:10]Kellan Finney: I agree with that. I would just add that consumers need to understand why they’re going into, to purchase any cannabinoid product, right. And also what they’re comfortable, what means or media they’re comfortable consuming that cannabis with. Right. A lot of people are uncomfortable smoking for health, health reasons, right?

So going in knowing that you’re not going to purchase something that you’re gonna light on fire and you’re using it to help you sleep is going to have. The bud tender died you through that selection process the first time? I think those two factors coupled with understanding that everyone reacts differently to, to cannabinoids and terpenes together, I think that could really make a, make your, if you’re a first time consumer it’ll make your experience so much more enjoyable.

What do you think, Brian? [00:50:00] I think

[00:50:00]Bryan Fields: for me, it’s about you don’t always have to be consuming cannabinoids to get it. Sometimes I’ve got pain and I want CBD to kind of alleviate the pain. I don’t want to take Advil. So that’s the route I can take. Or if I am looking to feel kind of light, I’ll take like a two to one because the balance of the cannabinoids together make me feel like my intended hopeful, hopeful perspective.

So I think it’s about having more chances than not, right? Like you go in there, you can have an authentic experience, maybe a bad bud tender, maybe bed, product choice, maybe a bad day. There’s so many variables to play and it’s not one size fits all. And it’s one of those. It’d be great if it was like a Lockton science where this product that makes you feel like this for this individual, but we’re not there yet.

So I think being patient and trying different product types and kind of taking a variety of different information recommendations you have, I think will be the perfect way for people who are experiencing cannabis for the first time and not have a one and done experience. It’s not the same type of cannabis where you had an edible.

And he got so scared. He couldn’t leave your room. It’s not the same space anymore. [00:51:00] Very, very different. And it starts with understanding that you have to know about all of these in place, what you’re doing and how the game works. So, Matt, before we wrap up, where can our listeners get in touch with you?

I’ll link up everything

[00:51:12]Matt: in the show notes. If you want to reach out, I’d say, do it on LinkedIn or Twitter. Alternatively, a funny enough, I probably would see the last messages on Twitter. So if I was like sort of reverse engineer myself, I said, that’s probably the best place to reach out. I’ll probably respond to you fast run that ever settling in, just because like so many messages of people pitching me services.

I don’t want on LinkedIn such that I’ve kind of reached the point in time or by a filter a lot of that out. But yeah, if you wanna check out for VM, it’s just fou rpm.com. Newsletter. We send out every single day. What the excitement of some, if there’s no news to report, but yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter are probably the two best platforms, which I don’t.

I would definitely

[00:51:46]Bryan Fields: recommend it for everyone out there listening. It’s well worth the read and it’s not too long. If you’re one of those where at, I don’t really have time to read, you can quickly skim through it. And sometimes if I’m looking for, in a rush, I just go right down because I’m just looking for Matt’s take on it.

So I definitely recommend it. Thanks for your time, Matt. [00:52:00] Appreciate it. And look forward my [00:52:01]Matt: absolute pleasure precipitation. Just thanks.

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Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

Bryan Fields @bryanfields24 and Kellan Finney @Kellan_Finney sit down with Peter Vogel, the CEO of Leafwire. Leafwire was founded to provide a welcoming and safe community for Cannabis business professionals. This community allows entrepreneurs, investors and individuals interested in cannabis to connect, share news and collaborate. With Leaf wire, everyone grows together.

Featured in Today’s episode:

  • How Leafwire has become the LinkedIn of Cannabis & Hemp Industry
  • How investors can find upcoming businesses to invest in
  • What is new and upcoming for Leafwire
  • How Leafwire is helping people network in the Cannabis industry

You will also hear what Peter thinks the biggest misconception in the Cannabis Industry is as well as advice he has to share.

Peter Vogel is the CEO of Leafwire. After working in Technology startups for 20 years, Peter Vogel decided to step into the Cannabis business industry. You can join Leafwire to learn industry news and to network to

Don’t forget to Follow The Dime Podcast (https://anchor.fm/thedime) on Instagram and Twitter


[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents.

What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime as always. I’ve got my right hand, man, Colin Finney here with me. And this week we’ve got a very special guest here, Volvo CEO and founder of belief, wire pier.

Thanks for taking the time, how you doing today?

[00:00:24]Peter Vogel: Doing great. Awesome to be here. Thanks for having me on

[00:00:26]Bryan Fields: We’re excited to kind of dive in . Kellan, how are you doing?

[00:00:29]Kellan Finney: I’m doing well. I’m doing well. How about yourself, Brian?

[00:00:31]Bryan Fields: Doing well. Thanks. So before we kind of dive in Peter, I’d love to get a little background about you and they got into cannabis.

[00:00:38]Peter Vogel: Yeah, for sure. I was before cannabis. I was in the tech startup space for about 20 years and I’ve helped co-found and work for lots of startups in the kind of online marketing and advertising space. And that was where I was basically since I got out of college. And then back in, I guess now it’s about 2017.

I had lunch with [00:01:00] a buddy who I knew from also being in the tech startup space, a guy who’s now CEO of a company called simplifier. His name is Maryann Rasmussen, very experienced guy in the cannabis space and he, and a bunch of investors that come up with this idea for Leafwire. But they, they were all running their own companies and they had no one to kind of take it and run with it.

So we had lunch. I was. Kind of bored of the same tech startup world that I’d been in for 20 years. And I lived in Denver, so obviously tons of people around me who worked in cannabis and I knew it was a legit real industry. And I basically said to my wife, you know, where do I want to be in five years? So I want to be stuck in the same industry or do I want to be, you know, an experienced cannabis executive with, you know, lots of contacts and knowledge and be an industry.

Little me. So I made that call and decided for my future down the road, that cannabis was the industry that was going to be the place to be. So I jumped in headfirst and haven’t looked back. And

[00:01:57]Bryan Fields: for those who are just unfamiliar with Leafwire, can [00:02:00] you give us the simplistic version of what it is and the value it brings to the space?

[00:02:04]Peter Vogel: Yeah. Yes. We’d love to, of course. So the simplest way we pitch Leafwire to new people. Who’ve never heard of us is that we’re the LinkedIn of the cannabis hemp industry. So we’re the largest business network in cannabis. There there’s not really any other business networks out there. That, you know, have any audience or that are, you know, known by anyone.

So we’re, we’re mostly the only really business network and we’re, you know, by far any of the other people that have sites that are anyone similar, we’re probably 10 X bigger. And we’re up to, we now have about 40,000 members. And those 40,000 members all join, create profiles. So just like a LinkedIn or Facebook, he joined as an

individual, create your profile and you can add your company and your experiences.

And we’ve had about 18,000 company profiles created as well. So that’s 18,000 companies in this space. So it’s pretty wide following and, you know, on a day-to-day basis, we often have, you know, a thousand people on the platform, you know, [00:03:00] posting news, promoting events, connecting, messaging, commenting, et cetera.

So it’s, it’s a pretty engaged, vibrant community,

[00:03:07]Bryan Fields: the very main dashboard. So I guess my question to you would be, do you have to be in

 the industry to be operating on.

[00:03:12]Peter Vogel: You do not we don’t have any requirements of who joins. We have a job board with thousands of cannabis and hemp jobs. So if you want to come on and look for a job, you know, great.

If you want to come on and learn about the industry because you want to get into it, you know, great as well, people always ask me when they’re new in the industry, what, what they should do, how they should get start. And I always tell them one to get on the Leafwire, and just start reading the newsfeed every day, see what everyone’s posting, get a feel for the industry, read the news.

And when you see a lot of the articles, you can go subscribe to their newsletters. And then all of a sudden you could be getting 10 newsletters a day and you can get a really good gauge on the industry just by seeing what’s everyone writing about what are people asking about? What’s what’s everyone on Leafwire.

Like what events, what questions, what industries are hot. And then you can also, if you want to get a little more [00:04:00] aggressive, you can start connecting with people versus just, you know, a lot of the users are passive. They just want to watch and listen. You know, a lot of people deal with social media differently.

If you want to get more involved and you actually want to get more connected, or if you want people to actually reach out to you, you need to start connecting with people. You need to start posting. Occasionally you need to start commenting, liking like participants. You know, like any social network or business network, the more you participate, you know, the better your terms will be.

So that that’s, that’s what I tell people when they’re getting into the industry. So yes, we welcome new people. Most people we get are people who already work in the industry, but we’re happy to have anyone who wants to come learn about the cannabis industry or look for it.

[00:04:42]Bryan Fields: Yeah, I think that’s really well said.

And for those who haven’t have Basit and see with the social media, because their aunt Sarah is liking all their posts. They don’t have to worry about aunt Sarah being on Leafwiree. Right. You can, you can operate on there. And I think, you know what you said, Peter is really valuable for our listeners out there who are interested in the space, but are kind of unfamiliar with exactly how it is art, [00:05:00] right?

It’s a daunting task, the industry being so ever evolving. And we’re exactly a star night. I think what you said is perfect, right? Start somewhere and continue to operate forward and utilizing a platform like leaf buyers, really good resource for those out there who are junk, familiar. So telling where do you get your news?

How do you operate with other individuals? Obviously we’re connected with a bunch of different people across the space. Are you utilizing the more platform kind of diving. Yeah, no,

[00:05:25]Kellan Finney: I actually do utilize leaf buyer for exactly what Peter was saying. I just use it to scroll the news and kind of get an idea of what’s trending in the space.

I do it probably once a week. It helps us with keeping our finger on the pulse and see what everyone else is kind of talking about in the space. I use that and then. As well as a 4:00 PM. Okay. So there’s a bunch of really good sources out there, but I like Leafwiree. Cause it’s like almost like my apple news, you know how it like combines all these different sources to look at so that you can go into these various rabbit holes is what, but my favorite thing about

[00:05:56]Peter Vogel: it.

Yeah. We also have, I’m sure you get to, [00:06:00] we have an email now that we’ve recently rebranded as the daily wire that goes out every day. And we curate what we think are like the top six posts of the day. So these are all user generated posts from members that they’re either posting mostly it’s news or events, things like that, that we think would be applicable or interesting to everyone.

So, so we do, we do just that when, when, when we do that daily email, we’re trying to make. An easy way that someone could look and see what we think are like the top six things of the day. And when we put that in the email and send it out every day. So that’s kind of a good point you made of, I think what’s valuable to people is being able to see what’s relevant and that kind of thing.

I want to

[00:06:38]Bryan Fields: take two steps. We’re probably a bunch more steps backwards. The idea before. Right. Like, obviously you’re having that conversation with your friends. What sort of like thought process was it? Was it the idea of a cannabis based community of trying to bring everyone together? Can you kind of take us through that idea?

Because I think, or at least my perspective, I’m always interested in hearing how these early conversations happen with founders, with [00:07:00] understanding. This is the idea. I think I’m ready to kind of dive in with, can you try to share some

[00:07:04]Peter Vogel: information in there? Sure. It did evolve a little bit. When I first came on, the concept was a little more to be the angel list of cannabis, not, I don’t know how familiar you are with angel list, but it’s basically became very popular in Silicon valley for tech startups to go on and then investors to go on and meet them.

So it was kind of like a meeting platform for techie startup. And in the beginning, it was mostly VCs and Silicon valley folks, and then it expanded. So the idea was to create a platform where investors could meet companies were looking to raise funds. So when we first launched, I mean, Leafwire, it kind of looked the same and it operated the same.

We realized pretty fast. It’s really hard to make money from companies who are fundraising, even trying to get them to pay a monthly subscription fee of 50 to a hundred bucks a month. Was like pulling teeth. So it was hard to figure out how to monetize it correctly. It didn’t really function as we thought it would.

And we also found it was really hard [00:08:00] for investors to Wade, through hundreds of companies, a lot of which, you know, in cannabis, there’s a lot of brand new young companies, which really aren’t far enough along for investors to be interested. So we had the dual problem. Not really having a direct monetization strategy.

We thought we did when we started, but it turned out. It didn’t really work. Like we thought. And then we found out it wasn’t even that valuable to investors because there’s so many companies and most investors were hesitant to kind of act on their own. And then at the same time, we were getting thousands of people joining and using leaf are much more like a LinkedIn.

So we realized. Why don’t we pivot a little bit here. We’ll still have investors join. We’ll still have companies post about their fundraising, but let’s focus more on being a networking platform for the entire industry. And so that, that’s where when that shift happened and we realized that we could be that to the entire industry and not just, you know, the folks who were trying to read.

Yeah,

[00:08:56]Bryan Fields: I think that’s, that’s really important because I haven’t seen a startup failing [00:09:00] fast is really the most critical. And what we originally described as a business plan sometimes realize, oh man, we really missed the marker here. And what we saw was actually was going to be our business case is really far to the right.

And the most important way is to continue to evolve and move forward. It’s interesting because I remember the conversations we had a couple of years back and seeing like, we’ve worked, it feels so similar to LinkedIn when I’m on there with the events and the news and the connection, it kind of company in that respect where I could feel like I’ve been on this type of platform.

And it’s not one of those where I’m not sure how to use it. I know exactly when I’m on the dashboards clean. I see the events. I see the news. I see the people. Pretty pretty vocal about what their interests are post to LinkedIn, where I get tons of people saying, Hey, I just want to connect this one.

There’s actually a purpose and a feasibility in their connection, which really helps me when I’m trying to allocate my time towards the social media. I find value in the platform. So I want to take it one step kind of back to the current, your day to day and lead fire. Let me see. There’s a million things going on in cannabis and your time is really valuable to how you want to help grow the platform.

But [00:10:00] what specifically, can you take us through what your role is like on a day to day?

[00:10:04]Peter Vogel: Well, it basically shifts throughout the year, depending you know, as CEO, if we’re fundraising, I’m very heavily invested time-wise in fundraising, helping create materials, helping strategize about what, what we should be doing.

Reaching out to investors, having calls, creating reports and things like that. Other times, my partner heads up kind of the tech side. We have a development team in Sri Lanka. So my partner kind of manages them and heads up product development and just overall strategy, what we’re, what we’re creating in a day-to-day basis.

And I have another partner who is now VP of marketing, who heads up kind of. Sales operations and marketing. And we we’re right now, we’re actually hiring for for a VP of sales as well. So currently as things shift, since we don’t have a VP of sales right now, I’m spending a ton of time doing sales.

A lot of our revenue comes from advertising and our revenue and on the platforms. While we’re hiring [00:11:00] someone one, I spend a lot of time interviewing people and then two, I spend a lot of time filling that gap. So it’s kind of like any startup, you do whatever needs to be filled at that specific time.

So it kind of changes all the time. Yeah. You were many

[00:11:13]Bryan Fields: can tell that burner. So let’s kind of take it a couple steps further. The future roadmap for leap wire. Obviously we know the current direction of where it is now, but where, where do you foresee moving towards as the industry kind of evolves? Is it going to be location?

Are you going to try and get it down to where for us east coasters who are new to this space, you’re going to kind of formulate more of the information on a more personalized note, or are you going to take it more general, broad, where others can kind of find whatever they’re looking for?

[00:11:38]Peter Vogel: Well, I mean, I guess the answer is kind of both one, we’re changing a database from one to another so that we can optimize the newsfeed based on each user.

So right now everybody sees the same name. W whatever you see is the same as what I see. And we know a lot of people would rather see, you know, only specific kinds of news. So they only want to see stuff from people that are connected with. So we’re [00:12:00] optimizing that the database and the way we show that.

So the people will actually be able to curate and see almost exactly what they want to see in the news stream. So we are doing that. We are though, you know, anticipating having more and more of an international footprint. I mean, right now, I think it’s like 92% us 5% Canada and about three or 4% international.

So we do already have members from Brazil, the UK, Germany, Argentina, all, all over the place. And you’ll see people on leaf wire posting pretty regularly. So we do want to continue to participate in some international conferences, some international podcasts, some get our help, continue to get our name out there with some partners.

In regard to kind of, what’s new for Leaf Wire though, and sense of what we’re doing. One we’re, we’re building a mobile app right now, which everything we’ve done in the fire so far has been web based. And you can use your phone. I mean, leaf are works on a phone it’s web optimized for mobile. It’s not great though.

And there are some people who just prefer apps. So we think [00:13:00] we can appeal to some new demographics, potentially some younger demographics also in increased engagement. So that even just our regular users. When they wake up in the morning, you know, a lot of the things first people do is roll over, pick up their phone and start flipping through smash.

When you’re waiting in a doctor’s office. You know, when you’re in line somewhere, a lot of people will we’ll use that time just to check the news. Or I know personally, you know, I go check Leafwire, I’ll check something like, you know, CNN or. I, I use LinkedIn as well, so I’ll check LinkedIn. So to have an app like that, I think will help a lot.

Another cool thing we’re doing is we’re tying in some more, you, you mentioned location, which is interesting. We’re tying some more location-based features so that people can use us at conference. As a tool for networking. So we’re right now, we’re the biggest network for people to use while they’re just sitting around at home.

We want to be the biggest network that people can use just as well when they’re at a conference. So we’re going to do some things in there. One that’s a geographically location-based so you can look up on your app and see of all the people you’re connected to [00:14:00] on leaf. How many of them are within, you know, quarter mile of where you’re standing and see, you would see at an event like who’s there and then it’ll give you a chance to schedule a meeting with that person.

And you can schedule it through the Leafwire and you’ll be able to take notes on that meeting. And then when you leave the events, all of your notes, all your contacts are still in there. Cause I find that things frustrating when you go to vet and you use a lot of events, have a mobile app, you download it.

It’s something you’ve never heard of or Hoover, or you’ve used a once or twice. You use it and you set up meetings and this and that, but when you go home, you never opened that again. So all of the contacts you made, everything are kind of lost and it’s wasted. So the idea. If you can, every time you connect with someone, we also want to make it, there was a company that did this back in the mid to late two thousands that kind of went away, but we want to make it so that if you’re on Leafwire, you can essentially hit a button and get connected with someone else via their mobile phone via, you know, some location technology.

So have it happen at like NFC or something like. So that you get connected [00:15:00] immediately without having to exchange business cards, which in our post pandemic world, not everyone wants to hand business cards back and forth all day long, or even remember to carry them around anymore. So imagine if you could just connect with everyone, just hit a button on your phone, and now they’re connected to you.

And there’s a little tag that says you met them at this conference. So when you get home, you can use your Leafwire network and look up and say, oh, who are those people I met at MJ biz. And they’re all. In your Leafwire network where you’re connecting with people anyway. So the idea is to be the adult bunch of those mobile features that make it networking and conferences easy.

[00:15:33]Bryan Fields: Yeah. I think that’s such an important point because I think, you know, trade shows have been around since beginning of time. And they’ve tried to adapt from networking stands by providing these apps, but when only. That statistic, just going to guess 30% of the users are downloading the app. And I want to connect with you specifically, and I’m sending you messages, but you’ve never downloaded the app.

There’s no connection. So having some sort of universal tool, right, don’t have to go to the conference, download the app, then hope that people are using it. [00:16:00] Just having one tool that I can rely on that have all that information is so valuable because I mean like that part is such a headache. And then the business cards that you push them.

How many times, Carolyn, have you lost a card or someone where you’re like, oh, this guy was great contact. I got to email him to become home. You’ve got 200 cards. You’re exhausted. And you’re like, which one was it? So depending on his app, is that a tool you would consider using? Obviously it’s, it’s connecting on a real pain point that you and I are.

No totally.

[00:16:29]Kellan Finney: And I was, this is that’s so funny. You mentioned all those features, Peter. Cause I was actually trolling the internet, looking at these new credit cards that they have that have like a RFID chip in them that literally linked to all your personal information. So then the idea is you take the little credit card.

And you like put it up against someone’s phone and it’ll just automatically pull your contact information into their phone. But then now you have all of these contacts just floating around in your phone. So with Leafwire, think it’s brilliant because it creates a database for you as well, like a record.

[00:17:00] Right? So then you can go home, you get back on your Leafwire and you’re like, okay, here’s all the people I contacted. It’s organized, it’s sorted, it’s all clean. So I think that that’s absolutely a brilliant idea from a networking standpoint at conferences. Yeah.

[00:17:14]Peter Vogel: I have the same pain point that that’s kind of part of the reason we came up with a strategy.

You know, you get home from a conference and you have, you know, a stack of 100 cards or something. And the last thing you want to do is sit there and enter them all into your Salesforce. You’re behind on everything. The day you get home. You don’t a lot of times people just don’t people follow up. I find it.

A lot of conferences is ridiculously low. I’m going to conferences walked around. And when we first started Leafwire little go to conferences, I go table to table and out a card, shake their hand, get their card, you know, invite them to join Lee fire. And then when I got home, I would literally email every single one of those people and invite them digitally and work pretty well.

I would in return, literally I’d hand out, you know, a hundred, 200. I would have probably one person [00:18:00] contact me and they were probably someone like selling insurance or something. So the quantity I’m always found that when you go to trade show, it is hundred percent up to you to follow up with who you want to.

Like, I always assume like no one else will follow up. Like you have to be the one to do it. Yeah. Proactively take the step that you want to happen. I think

[00:18:19]Kellan Finney: it’s also pretty wild that it’s taken this long for us to move away from a paper information, right? Like we were literally surrounded by computers 24 7, and we’re still just handing out paper with our information on

[00:18:31]Bryan Fields: it.

Yeah, and I mean, it’s even crazier too, because like, when you, when you digest as a business, you digest the total cost of a trade show event. And then two is, think about the connections, which are the most valuable part of the trade show or being kind of like forgotten part of the investment. You’re wondering like, how are companies evaluating these investments in these trade shows because the follow-ups are completely broken and that’s really where all the business.

He’s really invested in. So if you’re, if you’re able to kind of pitch the business and say, Hey, like [00:19:00] we know what the cost $70,000 for your team to do this patient, regardless of the other wasted time of travel, missed emails, delays all those things. Now you have a real tool to kind of connect and follow up so that those business opportunities aren’t left to like the sales person who like might get to it, or the person who entered the cards in it’s a huge, huge pain point.

And I mean, I think you can really nail down in a niche community. Like cannabis, which is ever evolving and find a tool like that, that can help automate the process to make it.

[00:19:29]Peter Vogel: Yeah, we hope so. That’s our goal. We want to make it all parts of it, easier for people. And to be the, like you said, the universal kind of tool for people to use.

And it just makes it easier. Cause you, you, you made the point, you know, maybe 30% of people download an app. How, what percentage of those people know how to use it? Yeah,

[00:19:45]Bryan Fields: so I don’t even use it. Like I’m sitting at the trade show, yelling at him. Also, did you message this person? He’s like, I didn’t download the app yet.

And it was like, well, great.

[00:19:55]Peter Vogel: There’s, there’s a learning curve. Like you download some brand new thing and you’re like, which, which tab do I [00:20:00] go to? And like, who’s on here. If there’s something that everyone’s already using, it’s so many times easier to just open up your phone and be like, oh, here’s the, and we also want to work.

This is kind of another step further, but we’re working with conference organizers and make it so that we can actually upload say the agenda to a conference. And at Leafwire, we can upload the map of the place and the Leafwire. We can upload whatever information they want so that you can actually use.

You don’t need that paper guide. You don’t need, which a lot of people are trying to get rid of. Anyway, I’m J visit. I think I already got rid of their paper, you know, the little thing to hand out. So if you also on your phone, you already have the belief, our app. If at every event you go to, you can just click agenda.

You can click, you know, map, but you can click meeting schedule meetings, and it just makes it, so it eliminates the need for all these other extra things.

[00:20:49]Bryan Fields: I can’t say how many times I’ve seen people like. Really valuable documents to someone else and then just turn the corner or even worse, right? Like you’re like, oh, this is really [00:21:00] valuable stuff.

I’ll look at it later. And you come home after the three days, you’ve got just tile of shit on your hotel. And you’re like, I don’t even remember how I’m going to ever go through any of these there’s handwritten notes across the 40. It’s just ridiculous to go back on gallons point. You’re right. Like the way we’re operating now with all the technology to think that we’re utilizing these pieces of paper.

Transfer information and it’s just

[00:21:20]Peter Vogel: ludicrous. I agree. A hundred percent,

[00:21:23]Bryan Fields: but let’s go into the recent investment into SeedInvest. Can you share some more details about that? I was really curious to learn, you know, how, how that thought process came about and kind of how that went. Yeah,

[00:21:34]Peter Vogel: for sure. That was essentially born out of necessity from the pandemic.

We are in the middle of raising a convertible note in 2020 I was about halfway through it was done pretty well. And then March hit and, you know, it was kind of like, there was so much fear and uncertainty people didn’t know, you know, if, if we’re going into this huge depression, people didn’t know. You know if the pandemic was going to get 10 [00:22:00] times worse.

I mean, there was no vaccine. People had no idea what would real life start up again ever? So we found one, everyone, all of a sudden was afraid to be spending money, doing anything. And the people who had money. So the VCs who have funds and they have money already ready. They were so worried about other current companies.

So each VC already has say 10 or 20 company they’ve invested in. They know those turn 20 companies might be struggling and they’re going to have to reinvest more money to keep their companies afloat. So all of the existing VCs who had money were doing that. So they were holding back and they were withholding funds for their own companies for reinvesting.

So I essentially counter my head on a wall for about nine months trying to raise money and had very little success and then started talking to some crowdfunding companies. We hit it off with seed invest. They liked the platform, they wanted to do it. And so we started a campaign and it worked. So we finished the note.

We raised a total of about a million dollars and it was, it was great because. You know, I don’t want to say it’s a [00:23:00] last ditch effort, but it was basically an alternative. It was the next thing to do besides just reaching out to investors directly. And at the time it worked I will say that it was definitely stressful.

You have to reach a certain level before you can kind of, so even if you raise, say 600 or 700, you have to get to X before you can actually withdraw. So you can go through the entire process and if you don’t reach some minimum, you don’t get anything and see you invest sets it up like that. Cause they’re trying to ensure you have enough to run.

So they don’t want to put their investors money into something that’s going to run out of money soon. So they, they have those minimums and we didn’t reach the minimums until essentially the last week of a 60 day campaign. So I didn’t know, for 50 days if it was going to work or not. Wow. So it was very a lot of early mornings, a lot of begging and pleading people.

To come on, you know, invest and it, it worked so I’m, I’m thankful for it, but it was definitely a, it wasn’t easy and it was a relatively stressful process, but, you know, at the time that was, you [00:24:00] know, kind of the, the best we could hope for. Yeah. And

[00:24:02]Bryan Fields: then in cannabis, nothing is really easy. Right. You can’t take the traditional route.

And I think like I would like it if you could kind of expand on that where like some of the options that are, that are opened to other industries. I’m just not a 40 here in cannabis and everything is harder. So, I mean, can you kind of take us through some of those traditional routes that weren’t affordable to you or what not available?

Well,

[00:24:23]Peter Vogel: so to answer that in a slightly different way first I get a lot of people come to me with brand new companies that want to raise money and they want to know what investors should I reach out to what VCs? And I basically tell most of them, like none of them like. No investors or VCs want to hear about your brand new company that has no traction.

You know, that you just started that mostly. And this is kind of true in tech as well. You have to go kind of the friends and family round to start to get some traction. You have to get people who know you and believe in you to invest. Not that require proof that it’s working or traction or anything like that.

So for most [00:25:00] brand new companies, that’s mostly the only thing available. And this wasn’t true back in, like, I’d say like 2015, 16, 17, 18. A lot of the VCs, everyone was investing in brand new companies because cannabis was so new. Any new company, people had money and they just wanted to jump on, you know, year or two late.

There’s hundreds of hundreds of startups and the VCs are getting flooded with everything under the sun. So now they only want to put their money into things that are kind of series a or later. And they want to see people that are generating at least, you know, 50 to a hundred K a month that have some proven product market fit that have like like an executive team in place that seems, you know, professional and seasoned.

They would rather do that and spend more money than invest. You know, in early stage companies, because they know it’s going to take them a lot more time, a lot more risks. So there a lot of the investing shifted from early seed stage to series a. So another answer your question. I mean the most obvious thing that’s not available to cannabis companies.[00:26:00]

Is larger institutional investors, a lot of private equity. Most of those funds have mandates in their company, directives that they’re not allowed to invest in anything that’s federally illegal. It doesn’t matter if it’s legal in a state or even if it’s an ancillary company, like likely far, like we don’t touch the plant.

We don’t sell anything. We’re just a tech platform. Like no, typically most big technology venture capital companies or private equity or institutional investors won’t touch anything with the word cannabis involved with it. So that’s definitely locked out a lot of loan programs as well. Aren’t available to play touching companies.

If they’re federal. SBA loans, that sort of thing. So you’re really focused on starting off friends and family. And then, you know, once you get some revenues, some traction you can start going to, you know, there’s lots of others, investors in cannabis. And then once you get to like a series a, you can actually hit up the VCs.

You know, there’s tons of funds out there that we all know that, you know, like Meredith [00:27:00] capital or Poseidon or Arkady and then I’ll have, you know, a hundred to 200 million in their funds. And they’re great at that point, but most of them aren’t errands until you.

[00:27:09]Bryan Fields: It’s hard. I it’s, it’s like hearing you say that, just kind of brings back some of the conversations we’ve had with partners where they, they thumbed us, especially during the pandemic and said, Hey guys, can you help us?

Like we’re running out of capital and everywhere we turn, people are closing the doors on that. You know, I had friends outside industry go like, why can’t they go like X? And it’s like, well, X isn’t available to people in the cannabis space because it’s federally legal. And they’re like, well, that’s silly.

And it’s like, I agree. It’s definitely silly, but still it doesn’t help them on how they can not close their doors. So Kellen, I mean, do you think other companies, especially in cannabis will take a similar approach? I

[00:27:44]Kellan Finney: do. I mean, there’s, I think until there’s actual preform from a federal law, But they’re going to have to kind of take every option that they have available to them, especially if they’re pre money, right?

If, if they’re pre money, like it’s really, really limited from an option standpoint. And if [00:28:00] you are pre money, you better have someone who either has an accounting background or is a CFA on your team because a lot of VCs and a lot of angels and high net worth individuals like Peter was saying jumped in just very excited about the industry, especially when California first went legal.

People were throwing money around, just try to get their share of this market. That’s going to be massive, but it turns out that cannabis isn’t tech and it’s still federally illegal. So it hasn’t grown like the tech industry grows. Right. And you don’t see these zero to a hundred million dollar companies that often it takes a long time to build these robust vertically integrated MSO kind of focused companies.

And a lot investors also got burned really, really hard, right. They jumped in super eager. Eyes wide open, like let’s go, cannabis is going to be the next big thing. And a lot of the entrepreneurs in the space just weren’t the right entrepreneur, I guess, for lack of a better. [00:29:00] A way to describe some of those individuals, but they got burned.

And then that really kind of forced a lot of the investors into these kind of groups. Right? So now you see like Poseidon and Ark view where the accredited investors kind of group together to help that potential different opportunities for investment, because. There’s strength in numbers, right? They were like, okay, I got burned by myself.

Now I’m going to go out and team up with all these other individuals. So that at least we have a fighting chance in terms of figuring out the needle in the haystack. Right. And so hopefully the safe banking act passes and a lot of these other means of obtaining capital. Become available to plant touching businesses as well as ancillary businesses.

And I think we’re going to start to see that change, right? I mean, Schumer mentioned that that’s probably going to be one thing that the integrates into that bill he’s putting together as far as making it institutions available to invest in, in the industry without any of the downside that the federal government.

Kind of threatened them with from an investment standpoint, but until that happens, [00:30:00] it’s you got to find every source available. And crowdsourcing, I think is probably one of the smarter ways to go. I know that it’s, there’s a lot more paperwork and you tend to end up, probably have to deal with a lot more investors and just kind of more busy work, but at least you’re still.

So doing it, you know

[00:30:16]Peter Vogel: what I mean? Yep. Yep. That’s that’s true. There’s a little bit more reporting. Once you do a public raise like that, not a ton, but there definitely is more more work,

[00:30:26]Bryan Fields: but you said Callan too, like needs to be said louder. Cause how many times have we been a part of these groups so that we’re going to raise 10 million in our first question?

With operating the fund, like who’s distributing the money. Who’s making these decisions because as an investor, like, that’s going to be your first question, right? Like you got five or six people who were all good at different steels, but you’re going to hand them a check for $10 million and say, good luck guys.

Like, just figure it out. No worries on that. None of you guys have any sort of financial background. So if the money individually and just like, wish me the best of luck. And that’s the crazy part though, is. You don’t need that much money. I mean, obviously in some instance you certainly do because cannabis is expensive, [00:31:00] but I think to go back, well, you can either like you have to start sometimes.

And that means having a minimal viable product and just demonstrating that you can put the piece of the puzzle all together and any sort of experience that you have in your previous background or entrepreneurial spirit can make a big difference, but it’s also different challenges in cannabis. And one of the biggest challenges, I think for sometimes as people have these grand Bosso ideas, but are unable to actually start and put the pieces going forward.

And I think as an investor, You don’t want to invest in someone who’s not able to kind of actionize based on their ideas. You want someone that is going to actually do what they say. You continue to push forward because as a, as an entrepreneur, there’s fires every day in every other area, and you have to be able to prioritize the needs, to continue to wear different hats, to grow

[00:31:41]Peter Vogel: your business.

Yeah, definitely. There are a lot of skills and experience definitely does come through from your past, but there are also lots of brand new challenges and cannabis has all of its own problems. So both of those things, some

[00:31:56]Bryan Fields: of them silly, right? Like we can all agree that they’re silly challenges, but the challenges of [00:32:00] the challenges, regardless of what we think of them very true.

So let’s go slightly different approach. The biggest misconception since you’ve been in the cannabinoid space,

[00:32:08]Peter Vogel: the biggest misconception in general, most people who aren’t aren’t in the industry. Think it’s easy to run a cannabis company. First of all they think people are just making money, hand over foot.

They, they think everyone’s just raking in the dough with, without realizing that you know, how many people are there that, you know, I met three years ago that I thought were super experienced and had such great companies. And half of them are all gone. So there’s so many that come and go that, you know, it’s just like any other, like most startups do fail and in cannabis it might be even harder cause it’s such a untested industry.

And so many things are changing and the laws and regulations make things so hard. So it’s probably even more challenging than any other industry perfectly said

[00:32:50]Bryan Fields: and hits home really, really, really deep. Before we do prediction times, we asked all of our guests to, if you could sum up your experience.

And the cannabinoid [00:33:00] space into one main takeaway or lesson learned pass on to the next generation. What would that be? I would

[00:33:05]Peter Vogel: say to be open to collaboration and be honest with what you don’t know. I think there’s people need to work together in this space. And if you don’t, if you’re not really good at marketing, if you’re not really good at finance or to find the people that are, and actually work with them and have them on your team or partner with them, or do trades of your services and theirs, or just work together, I think one of the most valuable things we’ve done at Lee fliers, we’ve done tons and tons of collaborations with everyone from recruiting companies to media companies, to, you know, conference companies.

And it’s, it’s, it’s helped us in a huge way.

[00:33:44]Bryan Fields: Five years from now, we’ll leave wire be way more valuable to operators in the industry or for companies outside looking to get into the industry. Well, of

[00:33:57]Peter Vogel: course we want to be the most [00:34:00] valuable connection and networking communication tool for the whole nation.

So I have to one say that in five years from now, I would hope that almost every day, no one in the industry has the leaf, our app and their mobile phone, and it’s using it at every single conference you go to for their, you know, for their meetings, their connections, their networking, and that, you know, we’re just the go-to platform for all of networking communication.

So, I mean, that has to be, you know, super important. But of course I dunno if it has to be a one or the other answer, but. Assuming we are that if you want to get into the industry, obviously that we would be the most important tool or access point you could have, because, you know, you could go to LinkedIn, but you’re going to have everything else on LinkedIn.

And if all you want is cannabis and hemp industry, you know, news events, connections, learning, et cetera. You know, we would be the most, you know, probably the important thing for them to do. So I’ll say. He took my [00:35:00] answer.

[00:35:00]Kellan Finney: I was going to say both as well, because I think one other feature that a lot of people.

It doesn’t occur to them. If they’re not in the, in the industry is you can’t advertise. If you’re a cannabis company on LinkedIn, you can’t advertise on Google, right? Like these platforms are not available because of their company directives that say you’re not allowed to advertise for federally illegal companies.

Right. So I don’t think that that’s going to change until federal legalization changes and that could be five years. And so I’m going to say balls because if you’re looking to get in, in the industry, And Leafwire is going to be the gatekeeper, right. In terms of getting your name out there, advertising the service that you’re trying to sell to the industry.

Right. And if you’re in the industry, it’s going to be the best way to kind of see what’s going on from a trending standpoint, what products are kind of popular, who’s doing what and what companies are trying to enter the space. So I’m going to say both as well. I know that’s kind of a cop out answer, but I think it’s the right one.

[00:35:58]Bryan Fields: I agree that they don’t, they both work in [00:36:00] Tyrella right. And obviously the inner working simply far will be really beneficial for operators in the space. But I think from an actual evaluation standpoint, I think the outside companies will get more value from having a platform where hypothetically they could fish in knowing that all the fish in that pond or people in the cannabis.

It’s like you were saying, Peter’s like, you can go to LinkedIn inundated with just like random things across the board. And sometimes time is so important where you don’t want to spend the time on a navigate between if it’s a cannabis company. If not, you want to know right now I want people in this space.

Here’s, here’s where I can go. Are these outside companies that are looking to migrate in. They want to skip this massive kind of first step, second step, third step. They wanted to operate in because it comes in issues of floating and market share. Opportunities is still being fought over across the board and the quicker you can get in and the quicker you can start claiming that market.

The quicker, you can start building that mode to separate yourself in an industry that is literally filling an infancy stage. And I think while it will be [00:37:00] incredibly valuable operators, I think it will be more valuable for people outside looking to kind of understand the pulse and exactly how the industry yeah.

[00:37:07]Peter Vogel: Yeah, I can agree with that as well.

[00:37:09]Kellan Finney: Yeah. I think that’s a really good point, Brian, that it’s already a targeted audience if you’re trying to get a product into the space.

[00:37:16]Peter Vogel: So

[00:37:17]Bryan Fields: yeah, the first, my first thing, when you’re marketing is understanding, where are the fish that you’re looking to up, right? Where are they operating?

And if you’ve got to do seven to 10 different platforms, And to be expensive and not going to be as targeted as you want. And you’re likely gonna miss a bunch of the times, but if you can fish in a location, you know, you’re looking for specific type of salmon. I mean, all day, every day, these patients are going to be throwing the bait in just being like, oh, they’re going to lay in another one.

And for these outside investors, we’re looking to invest in companies specifically in cannabis, right. You can turn to the various platforms, but you want to kind of hear the messaging, the voice, you want to understand more about the leaders, how they positioned themselves, some of the news. You got to have a targeted place to kind of do all of that very well.

Thank you, Peter. Before we wrap up, where can our listeners learn more about [00:38:00] you? Obviously we’ll tag the flyer in the show notes, but if they want to get in touch with you, you know, where can they find you specific?

[00:38:05]Peter Vogel: Well, of course I would say Leafwire to start off. You know, if anyone out there is not a member, please come join the community.

It’s a hundred percent free to join. You can access all the different features. You can connect with people. You can learn about the industry. I learned about events, et cetera. So come join [email protected]. You know, the bigger our community, the stronger it is. You can also reach me at Peter Lee, fire.com.

[00:38:25]Bryan Fields: You automatically connected with everyone’s profile like Tom from MySpace. A message

[00:38:29]Peter Vogel: goes out for me to everybody offering to connect with them. But yes, you’re not

[00:38:33]Bryan Fields: automatically connect to the next time for my, honestly, if you’re you’re too young to know who Tom for my space is, I, I don’t know what to tell you.

[00:38:41]Peter Vogel: Yep. Thanks for your time, Peter. Thank you very much.

Wow.[00:39:00]

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New York tribe opens applications for adult-use marijuana retail licenses

The Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe, which has a reservation near the Canadian border in Akwesasne, approved recreational marijuana in a community referendum in December 2019 and is keen on launching sales as soon as possible.

NJ approves new cannabis grow site, but 24 other weed business licenses continue to languish

New Jersey’s cannabis regulators on Tuesday moved to streamline the licensing of new weed businesses and approved another marijuana grow site — but it did not announce the recipients of some two dozen businesses that have sat in limbo for nearly two years.

Medical marijuana dispensary license approved for Iowa City

The Iowa Department of Public Health announced Thursday it plans to award two new medical marijuana dispensary licenses – one to the Iowa Cannabis Company East in Iowa City and one to the Cannabis Patient Network in Council Bluffs.

Editors’ Note: This is an excerpt from our Monthly Playbook. If you would like to read the full monthly playbook and join the thousands of others you can sign up below.

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Note:
Figure 1. 2021 Emerald tests offered to 3rd party testing laboratories, data sourced from New Frontiers.

Cannabis with higher than 0.3% THC levels has yet to be recognized by the federal government and is only available in select states that have adult-use or medical programs in place. With the lack of federal recognition, states have been required to implement their own ways of regulating and ensuring consumer safety for the myriad of products containing THC. Fortunately, since Colorado and Washington legalized adult-use high THC cannabis in 2016 a company called Emerald Scientific has provided The Emerald Test to help 3rd party testing laboratories maintain consistent and proficient performance. The proficiency test is where ‘unknown samples’ are sent to the laboratory which must process them in accordance with their internal SOP. The results from this test are compared to the known concentrations of the ‘unknown sample’. Emerald has collaborated with the top reference material providers to facilitate the test ultimately helping the industry provide the safest products to consumers. These services barely scratch the surface of the offerings out there for brands wanting to provide only the safest possible products to cannabis consumers.

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First introduced in 2019 by Rep. Ed Perlmutter (D-CO) and passed in the House of Representatives on five separate occasions, including most recently in September 2021, the SAFE (Secure and Fair Enforcement) Banking Act would normalize cannabis banking in several important ways:

  • Financial institutions will be able to process legitimate cannabis business transactions, which will no longer constitute money laundering.
  • Regulators will not be allowed to terminate or limit a financial institution’s depository insurance because it provides services to a legitimate cannabis-related business.
  • Regulators will not be allowed to take adverse actions against or discourage financial institutions from providing services to legitimate cannabis-related businesses.
  • Financial institutions will be protected from civil, criminal, or administrative asset forfeiture for providing services to legitimate cannabisrelated businesses.
  • SAR reporting guidelines for legitimate cannabisrelated businesses will be amended
  • The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) will issue guidance and review procedures for financial institutions working with legitimate cannabis-related businesses.

The SAFE Banking Act is considered the most likely piece of major federal cannabis legislation to pass both chambers and become law this legislative session. All cannabis industry trade groups and many prominent banking and business groups support the legislation and have spent time and money to support its passage into law.

Now on its way to the U.S. Senate for the fifth time, the cannabis industry hopes the SAFE Banking Act will finally pass the Senate in a timely manner and be signed into law by President Biden thereby solving a significant problem for cannabis businesses – safe, reliable, and affordable access to the same financial services as non-cannabis businesses.

Please contact your Senator to support this important legislation.

Federal cannabis legalization could happen in the next 18 months. It represents some of the biggest opportunities and most significant threats your company faces. Arcview’s comprehensive Federal Legalization Readiness Review will help you prepare for the most likely federal legalization scenarios by digging into your business and identifying the risks and opportunities that are likely to accompany a change in federal policy.

Visit arcviewconsulting.com/federal-readiness for more information.

About the Author

Marc BrandlResearch Analyst,Arcview Market Research

Marc Brandl is a research analyst for The Arcview Group. He has over 20 years of experience in the field of cannabis – first as a campaign manager and policy activist in Washington, DC for Marijuana Policy Project (MPP) and other advocacy groups, and in the past seven years working directly in the cannabis industry.

He can be reached at [email protected]

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