Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
Bryan Fields (Twitter: @bryanfields24) and Kellan Finney (Twitter: @Kellan_Finney) discuss the next big companies to enter the Cannabis arena with Matthew O’Brien of Four PM.
In today’s episode catch insight into
- Companies that are currently investing in Cannabis
- Value and importance of the Budtender
- Educating and helping customers find their cannabis experience
- How the US legalizing Cannabis federally will impact Canada
- Uber and Amazon transporting Cannabis in the future
The goal of Four PM is to provide readers with valuable industry insights so they can stay up to date on the complex and rapidly changing modern cannabis industry.
Sign up to receive Four PM Newsletter on their site: https://www.fourpm.co/
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and
tangents. What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime has always got my right hand, man. Tell him Finney here with me. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Matthew O’Brien managing editor, founder of 4:00 PM.
Matt, thanks for taking the time. How are you doing today?
[00:00:25]Matt: I’ve never been better and I appreciate the invitation.
Yeah. We’re excited to dive in
[00:00:29]Kellan Finney: Kelly. How are you? I’m doing well, just enjoying the summer out here in Colorado. Are you Brian doing
[00:00:34]Bryan Fields: well? I didn’t have a great night’s sleep last night, but water under the bridge.
So let’s get after it. Not before we kinda dive into the hardening questions. I’d love to kind of get a little background about you and how
[00:00:43]Matt: you got into the Connecticut space. And cannabis really started back in 2016. I was actually an art at the time, and I read a book on the economics, which laid out a rather pragmatic argument as to why we as a sort of spices or species or civilization.
Should effectively embrace this [00:01:00] concept of legalizing all drugs. And at the time I was growing up in a pretty rural part of Donegal, which is in the Northern part of Ireland and very sort of dogmatic viewpoints on a variety of subjects, whether that be, you know, people attending church sort of women’s rights, et cetera, et cetera.
So this was like very much in conflict with my sort of worldview. And I just couldn’t deny the merit of the arguments that were being made quickly realized that if I want them to sort of pursue this path, Arden was not the place to do so. Realize that Canada was on the path to legalize cannabis in the upcoming months.
And then, yeah, in fact, we decided to pack up my things with a relatively short amount or a relatively smaller, minimally headed off into the great north van. I haven’t really looked back since
[00:01:40]Bryan Fields: 4:00 PM. And you kind of share a little bit about
[00:01:43]Matt: what that is. Yeah, for sure. So for myself, Extremely fortunate.
I’ve worked in pretty much every single vertical of the cannabis industry started off about 10 being have managed stores have managed supply chains. I’ve worked with every single person that operates in the industry. I’ve probably had some sort of relationship with them in [00:02:00] my prior occupations. And I often just felt that there was an absence of a publication specifically for cannabis professionals.
I feel like there’s a lot of good publications out there. For sort of consumers, whether that be like a Leafly or one of the others, would that be like the commitment and as a cannabis professional, I just felt that someone needed to be able to summarize the most relevant events that were occurring for me as an industry professional, such that I could continue to progress in the industry with an informed perspective.
And it was honestly just one of these things where by nobody else seemed like they were going to do it. So I just took it upon myself to sort of pick up that.
[00:02:31]Bryan Fields: Yeah, I love it. And I guess from my perspective, there’s like you were saying tons of opportunities in this space and tons of journalists and yours is one that I look forward to on a regular basis.
And it’s one of those where if I don’t get it that day, I look, I grab it the next day. And it’s always one of those where I really commend what you’re doing, because it’s not an easy challenge to kind of take on, obviously selecting a topic and then just proctoring through some virtual content. So I guess an easy question would be.
Take us through the approach from a day-to-day standpoint, you know, when you sit down, you’re like, all right, I’m gonna write about this [00:03:00] topic. How do you kind of go through that?
[00:03:02]Matt: So my sort of trade secret is that the first three hours of my day is really just looking at every single publication in the industry itself, you know, using platforms like Reddit using platforms like LinkedIn, Twitter, just trying to get a sense and kind of get my pulse on, like, what are people talking about?
What’s what’s happening in the industry from a sort of global perspective. I consider myself to be someone who’s like pretty well plugged in. So we’re often not, if something’s going to happen, I’ll have someone informing me. I had to tell him, you know, it should be on your radar. There’s going to be a press release coming your way.
There might be like a deadline on when you can talk about it. But usually I kind of know what’s going to happen ever before anyone else, because I have those relationships in place. So first three hours a day is really just trying to do like a pretty broad analysis of what’s occurring in the industry as a set from a global standpoint.
And then. For the next hour thereafter, it’s really just about refining. Like what do I want to talk about putting myself in the shoes of a cannabis professional, if I’m hustling, like every single person that works in this industry, what information do I actually need and really emphasizing that the need as opposed to want.
And [00:04:00] then, yeah, from there, it’s really just about me writing it in such a way. Whereby when someone receives this, they want to open it. They’re able to understand what I’m saying. There’s no corporate bullshit. We’re just telling it exactly.
[00:04:09]Bryan Fields: Yeah. And then at the end of every article you have the, and I’m probably going to say it wrong, who our take on it, which I think is the perfect way, because so many people kind of describe what’s going on, but the reason I come back is it’s not so you to summarize articles, I read I’m looking for your perspective and I enjoy that.
So the one I wanted to dive into today was one that I thought was really interesting. The built by the budtender theory. Can you kind of shed some light on that, what that means and kind of how that came about.
[00:04:34]Matt: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So my, my humble opinion is that there’s a huge disconnect in the cannabis industry from an executive level versus out of what’s actually happening on the ground.
I feel like there’s a lot of people coming into this industry from regular, the CPG industries, whether that be the alcoholic beverage industry, whether that be tobacco. And they’re trying to use these sort of frameworks to. Understand like what’s happening in cannabis. But my perspective is that I think there’s a lot of shortcomings in that approach.
I think that granted, those industries have [00:05:00] similarities, but at the end of the day, like they are miles apart. If you think cannabis is tobacco or alcohol, then you don’t understand cannabis. And that might sound like a cynical statement. But that, that to me is just a. And I feel like a lot of these individuals are very overdependent upon spreadsheets, no offense to, you know, some of the data providers that are out there, but at the end of the day, like there is only so much insight you can extract from these reports.
Whereas if you’re a budtender, you’re on the grind, having conversations with consumers on a day-to-day basis, you actually understand what’s happening in cannabis. A lot of times. Very far ahead of time before it will ever arrive at any of these people’s desks. So my perspective is that I think there will be many very successful cannabis companies built by budtenders based upon the insights we start gathering in lifetime.
And that really sort of speaks to how long it takes for these insights to arrive on these people’s desks. And I think even when they do. They didn’t want to understand it for what it is because they don’t understand the industry. And the only way you’re going to understand the industry is to understand the consumer.
And my perspective is that if you want to understand the consumer, we’re going to kind of this retail store for, you know, [00:06:00] a week at the very least, ideally a little bit more than that. Take the time to understand what consumers. And then work back from there. I think that’s
[00:06:06]Bryan Fields: perfectly said, I just want to push back on the Excel sheet nerds out there.
Those are kind of like domains we operate in. So Google hasn’t see with that, but totally understand what you’re saying. Kelly kind of take that, dive into that.
[00:06:20]Kellan Finney: I do, honestly, Matt, we’re going to be great friends for sure, because I got started by working in the industry. Right. Spent a lot of time in the lab, worked my way up last minute.
Ethicacy cultivation, vertically integrated and all these things. And the biggest mistake that I saw in the industry once I started consulting was you would come up with these groups that are very business oriented, as far as the team members. And they’re taught, you’re having conversations prior to building facilities.
And they’re like, well, if we just change this one, Variable in the Excel sheet, look how much more money we can make. Right. Right. And they don’t understand that. Like actually, if you change that variable, it’s [00:07:00] gonna create. A really low end product and you’re going to end up not selling it, or you’re going to have all these issues and the actual growing or cultivation of it.
If you start cutting corners here. And so there’s a ton of nuance items that go into designing these companies that I think that a lot of them right now are flawed and they’re, they’re going to spend a ton of money learning the hard way. And so I do think that budtenders potentially, or. Individuals who have kind of worked their way up from the ground up in these organizations.
And hopefully they get promoted to positions of decision-making power to kind of help drive these these shifts, if you will, because I mean time and time again, and at least in the U S in our kind of adult and medical market, I have a ton of friends that are down in Florida that say that they quit purchasing products from the dispensaries and floor.
Because they can get better products from the black market, because they’re just all of these massive facilities that they’re cutting corners. And they’re like, Hey, well, if we just add [00:08:00] another 500 square feet to each bloom room, look, we’re going to grow 20 times more biomass. And now we’ll make more revenue and our shareholders will be happy, but it turns out when you add that extra 500 square feet.
You encounter all these issues with pest mitigation and proper light distribution and watering. And then that creates a ton of problems in terms of the actual grow cycle of the plant. And so it’s just systemic, right? Like they just don’t understand that cutting corners in specific areas right now caused ton of issues downstream from a processing production.
And so I couldn’t agree more with that, that statement as far as I think that the really, really successful cannabis companies in 2050 years are not going to be the top 10 companies right now, in my opinion, for no more
[00:08:44]Bryan Fields: reception as well, much one pack in so many different directions. So I guess my first one would be like organizations.
I’m not so familiar with have been educational policies that go on with the budtenders to kind of walk through, you know, making sure that they are armed and equipped with the correct information. But [00:09:00] at the same part from a leadership standpoint, obviously being with your customers and hearing what’s going on is critical.
And I would believe, I mean, you’d see it all the time. Kim rivers is always at the grand openings of all of these and, and I don’t believe, really believe it’s maybe just the phone rocket needs a good photo, but I’m sure she’s there just to kind of see and get a pulse for what’s happening. But at the same part, you know, she can’t be in all a hundred Florida dispensary.
You can all the time, she got to rely on her leadership structure in order to make, you know, informed. Decisions and recommendations. And it does start with the bud tender when the customer comes in and understanding that like, it’s not about promoting just the products that we have. It’s about promoting direct products and telling, and I kind of go back and forth all the time on that.
So I guess Matt, back to you is like, how does bud tender with being kind of pushed with management to push a certain type of product, but no, Internally it’s other products probably best for this customer. Like how does he balance that perspective when dealing
[00:09:57]Matt: one-on-one with these customers? It’s a great [00:10:00] question to be like, I don’t know, is there a one right answer or one wrong answer in the sense that it really depends upon what you value most?
Like if the manager and the store doesn’t appreciate the fact that you’re willing to pay, you’re willing to play the long-term game. And what I mean by that is you’re actually trying to develop a report with the customer, such that your customer attention increases. Money they’re actually spending in your store will increase correspondingly.
If they’re not actually willing to recognize the Marist, that approach. There are some times in any occupation whereby you just have to, you know, suck it up and implement the approach that has being asked of you. Ideally, as I said, we do have an organizational structure where by they’re actually open to receiving feedback.
I E if you feel the approach is flawed, that the C-suite is open to receiving, you know, critical feedback as regards the limitations of the approaches they’re putting in place. I think it’s really just an individual question. Like personally, when I was a bud tender, I actually had to leave the first store I worked with because I kind of clashed heads with the manager on the basis.
That to the very point you just made, he was asking us to recommend products, which he himself was telling us he would never smoke. And [00:11:00] I found myself in the situation. I was like, oh, you’re asking me to jeopardize relationships. I’m building what the customers, despite the fact that you yourself have said openly to every single member of your staff, that the products are, you know, dirt quality But yet you just want to move them such that you can, you know, get our award from your manager and so on, so forth. So I think it honestly just comes down to like, do you, do you believe in yourself, do you believe that if you leave the store, you’re going to have to get employment elsewhere? I personally think that the basketball tenders are in very short supply and I don’t think any of them will ever have difficulty getting employment.
If the store that we’re working with, isn’t actually willing to implement an approach whereby they put the customer first. I do. I
[00:11:36]Kellan Finney: think that that’s brilliant. I want to add one other thing too, is that I think in the United States, there’s it differs state to state too, right? In Colorado. That problem is so prevalent that I have specific dispensers.
I’ll go to. And I’ll talk to about tenders and in Colorado, most dispensers are vertically integrated with the grow, right? And so every single time, I pretty much say no to the first three or four products they recommend [00:12:00] because it’s products that they are trying to push. And then like once we start talking, they open up a little more and they get a little, little more warmer and then I can actually see exactly what products they’re trying, what they like.
And, but if, if I wasn’t aware of that, I, they would just guide me down the wrong path. Right. So we’re like Washington, when I was in, in the state of Washington, they, the retail dispensaries can’t be vertically integrated. They can still provide like incentives to the bond tenders. Right? Like certain brands can be like, oh, like, if we hit these numbers, I’ll give you some product or X, Y, Z.
I’ve noticed that it’s, it’s a lot that disparity is not nearly as prevalent in the state of Washington because it’s by design versus like a state of Colorado. So I think it, it is a case by case study even further down in the United States, at least.
[00:12:45]Bryan Fields: And then this is maybe just more of like an inexperienced, but just, I never been a bun tenor.
So are they paid hourly or are they commission-based saying, look, if you do X amount of total sales, you make commission on top, is it, is it structured? Like.
[00:12:58]Matt: I think they feel it’s quite like it [00:13:00] very much very state by state. I think it all just comes back to the regulations that they put in place. I know in Canada, it is entirely done in terms of RD compensation, but there are states out there where by you do get compensation, depending upon the sales, which you, you reach such that there are incentives in place for you to push products that you yourself might not actually get.
Yeah. And that’s
[00:13:19]Bryan Fields: where it really, it really gets tricky. And just a little story today when we were having you on, I went into the New York store for a medical purpose because I wanted to ask questions like that. I wanted to bring up with you and what my experience was, Barry non-pushy. I asked him questions.
He pushed me in the direction, but he didn’t recommend products aggressively where in some of the west coast states, they were a little more aggressive with like, this is the one you should go for. This is at, and it was always the highest. Price product. So I wonder like Dylan was saying, it probably is bearing and state to state.
And of course, New York being just medical only, probably very different experience with the bud tender style. So I guess the next question would be how build trust [00:14:00] and the blend, the education and the experience between the consumer and the budget. Because obviously the perspective of the individual is going to be not the perspective, but the end result of the experience is going to be influenced depending on what they know, what they don’t know, assumptions in that experience.
So how, how does that experience work? Because like, sometimes people walk in and ask questions like, Hey, I want to get stoned. Right. And they want to get a certain high THC product, but maybe the budtenders, like you might want to consume more like a one-to-one ratio. So how does, how does the bud tender kind of blend the educational level of understanding the consumer and how to communicate that information?
[00:14:37]Matt: I think you got to pick your battles. Like it’s a lesson, the hard way, which is that no, two cannabis conservators. Ideally, if someone’s coming in, they’ll have an openness to receiving information that sort of conflicts with their existing perspective, like one such being the whole indicus that be the hybrid dichotomy that exists in the industry as much as I would like to think that it’s only a matter of time until that sort of fades out of existence.
The reality is there is a cohort of cannabis consumers who are so bought into that, that even [00:15:00] in the mentioning that this might not actually be what they think it is, is enough for them to walk out the door. And I had that happen to me once and I just realized, okay. And certainly incidences the customer is always.
And I say that’s kind of a contradictory statement in the sense I’m saying in certain incidents, the customer’s always right, because more often than not, you know, you do have to sort of test the waters, just like, you know, when you’re, when you’re taking a bath, like you kind of dip your toes in the water and see is it too hot?
And if the water’s nice and warm, you know, you can go when it’s too hot and you probably don’t want to go in for a little while yet. So the way I approached it, You know, you’re not trying to completely change someone’s perspective and that single a ton of your having assumed that you’re going to have 10, 15 in Congress with this customer on an each one of those.
And Congress provided them with a small snippet of information, which over time will accumulate to change their perspective on the subject. So it really is all about personalization, understanding what the customer wants. If someone comes in and they’re saying, you know, The highest THC indigo. I don’t think it’s the right time in the right place to tell that person that they’re wrong.
You just have to acknowledge the fact that, okay, what you’re asking for is a high THC product, which is going to [00:16:00] produce relaxing effect. Yes. Okay. You don’t necessarily have to tell that customer that indicas it’s, the teams are bullshit. You just have to understand what is their actual desired experience we cannabis.
And then it’s your job to recommend products that are ideally going to provide that best express. Yeah, that’s perfectly said.
[00:16:16]Bryan Fields: And I hope we, if the Endeca sativa part, because I wish you’d would just say that louder and louder, because it is so ridiculous that that continues to be, oh yeah, I got this great sativa and it’s like, okay, dude, like how many times are we going to talk about this?
So I’m telling you from your perspective, right? Like, we’ve talked about like the high THC, we’ve talked about the terpene. I mean, is this all part of the experience of a bud tender kind of communicating from educational. Working backwards through you’re looking for a relaxed feeling. So here’s the kind of path we’d recommend you to take.
[00:16:45]Kellan Finney: I mean, I hadn’t heard that and I’ve never been a bud tender, but I think that that’s absolutely brilliant. And I got to applaud your soft skills for me being able to come up with that. Cause like a lot of people that is like, absolutely. One-on-one how you deal with like a disgruntled customer or anything like [00:17:00] that.
Like you take it away from what they’re attached to. And look for the underlying reason. I think that that’s brilliant. The only thing that I would add to that is that as science catches up with the black market, the more and more genetics that are run on these strains in terms of trying to trace the lineages back and try to either support or disprove the whole sativa hybrid IndyCar.
I mean, a lot of it is just shenanigans. When you really get into the actual genetic information, that’s coming out of some of these strains and, and there are strains, of course, that are higher and linalool are higher than Mirasee turpines. And, and that would be a better way to kind of organize the effects from a medicinal standpoint that the cannabis plants provide, but the sativa hybrid Endeca then needs to go.
It’s just, I mean, I understand that it was a good categorization system. In the olden days. Right. But at this point with more science, we need to come up with a better letter to classify the [00:18:00] expected consumer experience with what’s going
[00:18:02]Bryan Fields: on in those plants. We know when that like really became
[00:18:05]Kellan Finney: popular. I don’t honestly, it’s been my whole life, honestly, when I was in that 12, maybe 15 years ago in high school.
I never remember hearing sativa hybrid Endeca it has to be something. Came about with legalization. I’m not sure. Are you sure Matt, you know, Matthew,
[00:18:23]Matt: it’s a great question. And to be honest with you, like there’s still a lot of debate as to what those origins of those terms are actually representative of like my, my, I was gonna say my limited understanding is that it’s just a plant structure of cannabis plants.
Like an indicator is normally shorter and height with broader leaves as a TIVA is typically tolerant height with Natalie. So I think. I think we just got, I sort of tread carefully in saying that those terms do mean something, the way we’re currently presenting the consumers is just absolute bullshit.
Like let’s just call it what it is and the problem, and kind of not to go too far down. The rabbit hole is. We are starting off the relationships we’re trying to build with consumers based upon misinformation. And the end result of that is just [00:19:00] expectations that can never be fulfilled because we’re trying to tell consumers that this product is going to produce this outcome.
Despite the fact that we all know that that is absolute bullshit. And the problem then that then arises is that that consumer goes home. They consume that product with the expectation. It’s going to produce a specific outcome and say, for example, you know, Brian, Google home purchasing indicate you’re new to the cannabis.
If you’re consuming that right before you go to the bed with the expectation, it’s going to be relaxing. And then it’s actually producing a stimulating effect. You’re probably telling yourself, like cannabis isn’t for you. But the problem isn’t that cannabis has view. You’re just being told harsh information, despite the fact that we should know better at this point in
[00:19:34]Bryan Fields: time, that’s perfectly said.
And I mean, for me personally, I mean, it’s all right, because. At my house, my parents would often meet, say, Hey, Brian, like we know you typically don’t prefer the downers. So here’s some sativa. And I look at my dad and I’m like, why? Right? Like, what are we doing here? Like, you’re handing me something like someone you don’t really know.
So well, you bought off the black market and they told you this and we’re just passing rumor theory here. And it’s like, how many times are we going to take that approach and [00:20:00] say, Southern work anymore. Like, let’s actually go figure out what we’re looking for, because for me, like, I don’t want to have to be sliding into the couch and have my eyes closed because I’m so stoned.
And then I have to like put the hood over. So I’m with you. Like it’s very off putting and it’s about kind of changing the stigma and starting with the education, which from the east coast standpoint, we got a long way to go because we just haven’t had enough exposure. Who kind of what you were saying, like good experiences with budtenders who play such a, such an important role with kind of taking the industry and moving it.
So I want to kind of switch gears and bring up one of the points you said in our previous conversation, why Canada is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Can you kind of expand on that?
[00:20:41]Matt: Yeah, it’s a, it’s a rather controversial viewpoint, but I think Canada became the sort of darling of the cannabis industry by lack of choice.
In the sense that the only G seven nation that legalized cannabis, you know, every single fortune 500 companies looking at cannabis, and they’re asking themselves like, is this industry, is this an Israel we want to partake in which for a [00:21:00] lot of companies, the answer is yes, perhaps it’s a little bit too early for emotes, but the outcome of that thought process is that, okay, we need to sort of capture market share as early as possible.
And with the current regulations that are in place. And a lot of these companies being publicly traded, like they can’t actually invest capital into us kind of as a company. So that, to the earlier point, right. Cannabis became the darling of the cannabis industry by lack of choice. Right. To sort of expand upon the point that cannabis is becoming our Canada is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
We all know it’s only a matter of time until such point as the U S legalizes cannabis on a federal level. It’s going to happen. 68% of Americans are not in favor of legalization if they don’t. I think it just makes an absolute mockery of the premise of America being the. Free leaders of the world and it being a democracy because if 68% of people want something, but they’re not actually willing to go out and enact legislative changes, then, you know, is it a democracy?
I, I, on that basis, I think that us has to legalize cannabis. And at that point in time, we’re going to quickly realize that a lot of the early capital that come into Canada, Shouldn’t have actually [00:22:00] been invested in those Canadian companies. They should have been a little bit more patient and they should have just decided, okay, what is the right play?
I personally don’t even think that investing in cannabis companies that are heavily focused on. Cultivation is the right approach, more than happy to get into that in a later segment of the conversation, because my sort of contrarian viewpoint is that the future of the cannabis industry is not cannabis it’s cannabinoids.
And I think we’re going to see a completely alternative approach to the production of cannabinoids. So all in all, I think all of those billions of dollars that have been invested are going to be written down in the not-so-distant future. And they’re all going to realize that it was just lack of patients that ultimately was the sort of underlying root cause of that.
[00:22:37]Bryan Fields: really well set in and kind of take it one step further. I think the fact that those Canadian companies are on the public, both markets make it more accessible because they can’t tell you how many text messages I get. And you say, Hey, I’m looking to invest in cannabis. Like I want to invest in like canopy or till, right.
And it’s like, wait times we talk about like, this is, this is where it is. And he’s like, well, where are those? And it’s like, [00:23:00] Still the same place. And then we kind of get into this conversation about like identifying the right ones and it just kind of kicks a tailing down the wrong perspective. And I wonder, like, I know big canopy is trying to come over.
Right. They talked about the acreage approach and they’ve made some sort of announcement that they’re going to be in here. I think by December, end of the year, I think he said that in, I mean, we’re halfway through 2021. Yeah. Well, I wonder if he’s going to need good on his prediction. So do you have any thoughts on if those kinds of statements that, you know, I think it was David Klein when he made those statements that he was going to operate in the United States before the end of the year.
Do you have any statements on that?
[00:23:34]Kellan Finney: I mean, at the end of the day, if they have enough money, then they could totally make it happen. Right. I am not super privy on how that would work from like a stock market perspective. Cause they went public on the Toronto stock exchange. Right. I don’t know how a company can transition from the Toronto stock exchange to say the NASDAQ.
I know that Tesla did it, but they were listed in [00:24:00] America to begin with. So that is way above my pay grade. As far as like transitioning from the Toronto market, that’s centered around Canada’s currency, right to the United States market. That’s centered around the U S dollar. Because I think that that is going to be the most.
That would be the biggest benefit from a monetary perspective. Yeah. You’re going to capture some sales, but that’s a long ways down the road, right? Like building infrastructure, launching a brand that could of course make that quicker from an M and a kind of perspective. Right. But
[00:24:32]Bryan Fields: sorry to interrupt. The U S players could buy the Canadian companies, like at a certain point, like they’re outpacing the growth.
It used to be where the Canadians wanted to come in and now it can be the other way where like, Hey, we’re the bigger fish now. So like you maybe,
[00:24:45]Kellan Finney: maybe you see a pull, something like time Warner and Yahoo did, right where time Warner came in and, and clearly Yahoo is worth significantly more money and they merged.
Right. But then the executives at time Warner ended up having [00:25:00] more power than Steve case did after everything was said and done. And then. Well, when behold, now you have the executives and the management team at Aurora who now has a very. Attractive NSO and that exact brand name, but the people that are running the show are the people that were running the show for Aurora.
Right? So there, there could be something like that. I mean, it’s just, there’s a lot of different avenues for them to take in terms of approaching the U S market and getting into the U S market. I mean, I think it’s a really, really long shot to say that they’re just going to spend the money, go in, buy a license and set up shop in America.
I think that’s going to have to be done in a much more creative
[00:25:37]Bryan Fields: fashion. So they want that. And I kind of want to switch gears because I feel like we’re just kind of speculating on unknowns.
[00:25:44]Bryan Fields: between the Uber CEO coming out and saying, they’re going to consider Canada. The Amazon, which is big, big news, the NFL, the recent news of the Olympian, not like why are all these massive, massive companies?
I mean, apple announced with the iPhone, the the apple store, all [00:26:00] these massive companies don’t have to make these proclamations. Why are they.
[00:26:04]Matt: Think they all know what we know, which is that inevitably the cannabis industry is a, is a trillion dollar industry. And if you’re, if you’re a big company like apple, Facebook, Amazon, you know, take your pick and any of the trillion dollar companies that are already in existence, like you, you have to, you have to penetrate new markets rather aggressively such that you’re still considered a quote unquote group stock.
And at the point at which these companies start stagnate, are you either not actually expanding into new markets? People are just going to sell off their stocks in favor of companies that are actually growing at a higher yeah. So I think it’s honestly just a case of the economics of the cannabis industry is driving a lot of these decisions for Uber as an example, I’m sure they know flying well, that it’s only a matter of time until they incorporate cannabis into their portfolio of the goods that they add, that they transport.
I think that’s going to happen relatively soon. I would actually be very surprised if they don’t actually make a move into the Canadian market relatively soon. BC, which is a British Columbia should say, which is on the west coast. Canada, I think is right for [00:27:00] an entrance points by Uber because they could transport products on behalf of cannabis retailers in that specific market with Amazon.
I think Amazon will be one of the most important cannabis companies in the world. In a matter of time, the reality is they have all the distribution in place as is. All they have to do is then introduce cannabis into their market. It’ll be very interesting to see how they approach their entrance into the industry, but just based upon the investments that they’re making in cannabis reform as this, I think they’ve invested like a hundred thousand dollars, which ultimately for Amazon is pennies on the dollar, but you know, it’s, it’s a signal that they are actively investing in.
And companies like Amazon don’t make those investments unless they feel as though they’re going to get an ROI on that investment. So inevitably Amazon’s going to enter the industry. My prediction is that they’re probably going to do a medical play to start. And I think then over time, they’re probably going to introduce adult use into that framework.
But yeah, I think it’s just the economic state. They know that there’s money to be made and ultimately they are for-profit entities and it’ll be a huge missed opportunity if they don’t explore the idea of actually monetizing or capitalizing on that.
[00:27:57]Kellan Finney: Yeah, I think we were talking to some other [00:28:00] highly intellectual individuals and they, they just said that for Amazon, it’s just another, another brown box to ship.
You know what I
[00:28:06]Matt: mean? Which is kind of depressing, but, you know, I, I hate to, I hate to agree because there is something special about cannabis. Like the, the culture of cannabis is an extremely different versus that of any other industry. Like, and it, maybe another industry. People from across the world are actively communicating on platforms like LinkedIn and Twitter and sharing ideas.
Like have you ever seen employees at burger king, having conversations with the employees at KFC as the, you know, potential best practices or ideas, et cetera, it just doesn’t happen. So I hope that it doesn’t just become another drawing box, but if I was asked, I think you’re probably correct.
[00:28:41]Bryan Fields: Being in factor is good.
Oh, hard to do from Uber standpoint. Right. You can get your Uber eats, you can get your drizzly booze, and now you can get your, your canvas. You can get like the trifecta three and one, and it kind of put it back on, on Amazon. Like those are the types of small, small steps they’re getting announced to the world.
And for the [00:29:00] majority of the world, it’s nothing right. It’s another news. But I think for the people in this room and for the industry, That’s a massive, massive sign. We’ve talked about one of like the global leaders coming out and making a public statement saying that like, we’re not going to drug test anymore.
Now they’re going to start making, you know, financial commitments. These are all steps like you were saying. So that way. They will reveal themselves and be like, Hey, we’re in the space. People are going to be, oh my God, no way. When did Amazon come in? And we’re all going to be like, back in July in 2021, they started taking all these steps forward.
And like that’s where these small steps kind of combined these massive boulders with the movement of the hand. Yeah. Right. Any predictions on next big company to, to kind of make an announcement coming
[00:29:45]Matt: in? I think Google is going to make some pretty big announcements in the not-so-distant future. I’ve had conversations with creators on YouTube, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of alphabet, which is the parent company of Google.
And they have said in private that Google or alphabet rather [00:30:00] is actively reaching out to them, offering monetization on the platform for the very first time. What that suggests to me is that. The current conundrum of cannabis companies not able or being in it, their inability, I should say to access programmatic advertising capabilities of YouTube and all the other platforms, which are under the alphabet umbrella.
I think that’s going to change. And it’s very interesting for companies like Leafly and Weedmaps because albeit their advertisement capabilities. are Sophisticated. They are nothing in comparison to that of Google. So I think going to be the next big company that makes an announcement I’m at, I think they’re going to apple as a starting point in that they’re going to allow cannabis marketplace apps to actually sell well cannabis through the apps that have been listed on the Amazon store.
I think the next step is they’re going to make a more sort of broad announcement that Canadian cannabis companies are allowed to advertise on their platform and then pending the federal legalization of cannabis in the state. I think that us operators will then be able to access the platform. You think Google
[00:30:56]Bryan Fields: will bite them, killing those businesses?
You said? Or do you think he’ll fall off? [00:31:00] Cause how does that work? Because it’s really hard. I mean, it’s almost nearly impossible to fight a Titan like that ensure they’ve got a stranglehold on the industry now, like you’re saying as soon as a massive fish comes into the, to the waters. Against
[00:31:13]Matt: substantially different.
They doesn’t yell like history has a habit of repeating itself and use that as a perfect case example as to what happens. Like what they’re probably going to do is they’re going to scrape all the data, which is being accumulate on these platforms. And as a consumer, it’s all about removing friction, or I should say for a company it’s all about removing friction for consumers.
So as opposed to you having to click on Weedmaps and actually interacting with our platform, they’re just going to surface that information in the search bar. And that’s exactly the playbook we used the Kelly Yelp, but I will not be one bit surprised when history repeats itself. Yeah. I mean, Amazon
[00:31:43]Bryan Fields: did it with Allbirds, right?
They sell batteries. They scraped the internet for products that they can resell and they rebuild it and can’t blame them because obviously the end of the day data is king. But, I mean, it’s one of those where as these massive conglomerate just keeps blowing up, swelling up bigger piece of the pie.
[00:32:00] There’s only five or six companies, but that’s a conversation for a different time. I don’t want to take it too far down that rabbit hole. So the next topic I wanted to bring up is cultured cannabinoids. What do you mean by that?
[00:32:11]Matt: Yeah. This to me is probably the most interesting of all trends and the trend I probably spend most time are, I should say that the train that pay closest attention to in the industry, because.
To sort of offer a little bit of context before we dive into what culture combos are. I think it’s important to remember that right now, as an industry, we currently have access to two, maybe three cannabinoids, like then in the sense that we’ve commercialized CBD and we’ve commercialized TNC, it seems like we’re sort of on the path to commercialize CDN.
I guess you could make the argument that Delta eight has been commercialized. I think that’s a very short term play. I think a lot of those operators are going to fade out of existence because the regulators are going to make it as. However, there are about 180 cannabinoids that we know of. Now, the problem is the current genetics that we have make it such that it is very inefficient from a cost standpoint, to produce those [00:33:00] cannabinoids in a quantity that would actually allow for the commercialization of them.
Now, that is the, what I call the agricultural cannabis supply chain. We plant cannabis drops in the ground. They produce a flower. We extract cannabinoids from that biomass. Typically it’s about 22%. If you’re good at actually cultivating cannabis. However, what culture cannabinoids are is a completely, completely different alternative to the existing supply chain that we have in place.
So culture cannabinoids are, is effectively. We’re using fermentation tanks and we are using a approach whereby we are effectively using. Biosynthesis to produce cannabinoids, where this gets very, very interesting. And Ben, who is the CEO of a company called Solibri completely blew my brain on this topic because I was completely against the idea that a different alternative could emerge the cultivation of cannabis to ultimately obtain access to those.
But the approach which he presented to me is that they’re going to be able to produce these cannabinoids of a 10% of cost of what it currently costs today to produce cannabinoids and better yet, they’re going to be able to. [00:34:00] Each and every one of those hundred and 80 cannabinoids are referenced. Now, what that does in my humble opinion is that it completely changes the game.
At that point in time, it is no longer a cannabis industry. It’s a cannabinoid industry. Now I think there’s going to be like a small percentage of the market that will remain a cannabis industry. Ultimately, if you want to, if you are a consumer who has a preference would ride flower, then the only way to produce dry flower is ultimately cultivate.
However, I think we’re going to see a complete expansion of the market whereby all of the CPG companies. So like any fortune 500 company that has a CPG company is going to commit to the cannabis industry. And they’re not going to be acquiring cultivation facilities. They’re going to be working with these cultured cannabinoid companies, such that they can obtain access to any and all of the 180 cannabinoids that they want.
And then they’re just going to start adding them to their existing product portfolios as an ingredient. And to me, that is the future of the industry. And that’s why I like to say the future of cannabis is not cannabis. The future of cannabis is cannabis. Hey, good.
[00:34:53]Bryan Fields: Perfectly said. And I know this is bad audio, but Kellen has a massive smile on his face.
So killing one, pick up, take back to the next
[00:34:59]Kellan Finney:[00:35:00] level. Yeah. I actually saw a little pretext. I worked my graduate degrees in metabolic engineering. I worked on metabolic engineering. It’d be Kolai to manufacturer a molecule called a diffic acid, which is used to make nylon is the precursor for nylon.
So. I was a really, really big fan of the technology ever since I’ve been an undergrad. The applications are endless the couple issues that are going to have to be navigated before the consumer accepts cultured cannabinoids. And, and as far as the cannabis industry as a whole, I couldn’t agree more. I think that at the end of the day, Even hemp and the CBD companies are also have THC as an inventory product that they just can’t sell right now.
So regardless, it’s all going to fall under one umbrella in my opinion. But as far as cultured cannabinoid goes, there’s going to be a couple obstacles that need to be tackled. The biggest one that I haven’t come up with a solution yet, which of course, there’s going to be a lot smarter people working on it than me.
But [00:36:00] it’s going to be classified as a GMO. Right. And so you’re not going to have any access to the European market, unless you have significant lobbying that goes in to change those laws. Because at the end of the day, That molecule is being manufactured by a genetically modified organism, right? Whether it’s yeast or Cola, depending on how you want to navigate the, the IP and patent world, right.
That’s going to be one of the major hurdles that needs to be tackled from a consumer standpoint. The other obstacle I see that could potentially be detrimental to the culture of cannabis is right now, there’s only a couple of companies that can tactically utilize e-coli or yeast to manufacturer THC or CBD.
And that is solely based on the patents that they have on
[00:36:46]Bryan Fields: THCA synthesis. And CBDA so base.
[00:36:50]Kellan Finney: So the actual enzyme that converts CBG the precursor to either CBD or THCA CBDA, those are passed. So then you’re either going to [00:37:00] have to utilize some sort of CRISPR technology to generate a custom enzyme, to be able to manufacture that.
Right, or you’re going to have to go after a different capital. I didn’t. And there’s a couple companies in America. One is Criollo right. That I don’t know if I pronounce that. Right. We, we chatted with Jeff at gorilla and, and they’re actually doing CBG because of that exact situation. Right. And so what that tees it up for?
And I agree with you on this is that the fortune 500 companies are licking their chops for this week in their chops at this right now. And it’s because that entire process is patentable. So they can go out and start patenting these enzymes, and then they can own the process. And now big pharma has their means of running monopolies for 20 plus years.
Right. And when they have the opportunity to run monopolies, they find ways around the GMO hurdle that I mentioned previously. But that that’s where I think that it could be a big threat to canvas culture. And I mean, it could [00:38:00] potentially, I see it going this way.
[00:38:01]Bryan Fields: I see CBD and THC
[00:38:04]Kellan Finney: being solely derived from agricultural means.
Right. And I see the rest of the 138 plus cannabinoids, most likely being manufactured, either synthetically through like a biomimic Mammut pre-process that’s like your traditional organic chemistry, where they mix a bunch of stuff together and stir it up into that, like a potion, right. Or through.
Engineering the Surrey choli and then they’re going to kind of utilize a lot of those cannabinoids for pharmaceutical and medicinal purposes. Right. Which I’m not going to say if that’s good or bad, if there’s other cannabinoids that should be available from a recreational standpoint. Whole kind of situation looks like down the line, but those are definitely going to be some of the hurdles that will need to be crossed.
And I mean, I don’t think it’s, it’s an, if I just think it’s a win, especially if you look at Kronos and the amount of money they’re pouring it pouring [00:39:00] into biosynthetic means. And, and at the end of the day, the pharmaceutical companies see the opportunity to patent those enzymes and own that supply chain aspect.
And there will be money in it. So. It’s just a matter of when I don’t know exactly. I don’t have a great prediction on when that’s actually gonna kind of play out, but that’s, those are my opinions on the obstacles that, that technology is going to have to go through to be able to be commercial, commercially viable for
[00:39:25]Bryan Fields: conservators.
What sort of timeframe are we talking about for them? Because like, we have such a disconnect from a global standpoint, even like a domestic standpoint between the west coast needs. What type of timeframe do you think, Matt, are we talking about where these other cannabinoids are going to rise in popularity?
We did really interesting study where we found the massive difference from a search trend standpoint on THC and CBD based on location. And it was really surprising when you kind of correlated back to like which states were recreational, which ones are not. So, I mean, from an educational standpoint, like we’re already from a timeframe that you think it’ll be more.
Commonly [00:40:00] understood of this culture
[00:40:01]Matt: contamination from the information that I’ve been provided. I think five years is a pretty good timeline. And the reason why I say five years is that my understanding is that the company, which I referenced earlier asked lead by they’re going to start commercializing CBG at the beginning of next year now, because this is such a new technology and that there’s still a lot of R and D that has to be done before they can necessarily commercialize these products.
I think, I think they’re probably. Gonna take a few years just to actually reach scale whereby they can produce these cannabinoids in such a quantity that they can. Meaningfully supply the market based upon the demand for them. I don’t think there’s going to be any shortage of demand. Like if they can actually produce these molecules of a 10% of the cost of what cannabinoids are being produced at today, then to me, that is enough to drive consumer adoption of this approach versus the alternative.
I think, you know, brings up a fantastic point, which is, I’d say another. This particular sort of subsets there’ll be industry is going to have to overcome, which is that from a consumer standpoint, a lot of people have in their mind that, you know, [00:41:00] synthetic phenomenons are bad coming from Ireland, we were always told, never consume what’s called spites.
And a lot of people actually find it very hard to make a distinction between something which has produced the biosynthesis versus something, which is synthetic. So I’ll be at these molecules will actually be D. In reality, I’d say for a large percentage of consumers are going to have it in their head, that these are actually synthetic combines and the cause of all this sort of mass hysteria regarding the vape crisis, which actually proved to be actual synthetic cannabinoids, not biosynthetic and adenoids.
I think from a consumer education standpoint, there are huge hurdles that have to be overcome before you’re going to see consumers, meaningfully adopt them. So that’s why I say about five years. It could prove to be a little bit longer. But it would be very interesting to see then in Europe, if the same investments are actually made to produce these, you know, going to go with state of the art custom built cultivation facilities for cannabis.
Or whether they perhaps just skip a step, whether they, as opposed to building up those cultivation facilities, they actually just started to build out these fermentation times as opposed to necessarily pursuing that path, such that they just skip one step in [00:42:00] favor of adopting. What is a more sort of modern technology I’m going to take the
[00:42:02]Bryan Fields: other side of that approach though?
I disagree. I think if you could get a product for $21 or product for, let’s say $8. You’re not going to really look at the back and see BMO, not like I don’t think there’s enough information that can be consumed in one of these experiences where you can kind of go through it’s THC CBD, terpene understand type of product type, where it was grown, or there’s just too much going on.
So at least in my opinion, I think. We’ll be more trusting. I mean, people buy deed products all the time, off the internet and have no idea what is actually happening. Right. Like every time we talk to someone about that, they’re like surprised. They’re like, no, it’s definitely regulated. And I was like, what makes you think that?
And they’re like, because if I can buy it on the internet and I was like, it’s terrible, like silk road, right? Like that’s not how that works. That’s where I kind of, I, I challenged that thought and I mean, we count and I dove into this a bunch of times. I just don’t see. It’s just so much information to communicate in [00:43:00] such a tiny amount of time.
And that’s only one product, right? And I think price is such a differentiating factor when it’s a new consumer on only $1 or $8 substantial difference. And if, if they can drive that cost. I’m going to be willing to play game. I think,
[00:43:15]Kellan Finney: I think the cost is even more so if you’re looking at like CBC or even other cannabinoids that like are prevalent in less than.
0.1% in a natural cannabis plant. And now you’re able to manufacture it at scale with bioengineering, because like, you don’t have to grow it. You could literally make literal ton adenoid in, in a couple of days with this technology. And like, instead of like, okay, we planted the seed, like we’ll come back in 14 weeks and we’ll harvest.
And then we’ll cure it and then we’ll extract it. And maybe
[00:43:48]Bryan Fields: next, next September,
[00:43:50]Kellan Finney: we’ll have, have a couple of kilos for you.
[00:43:54]Matt: Fingers crossed
[00:43:55]Bryan Fields: of snow early frost in Colorado, right? Like fingers crossed nothing terribly.
[00:43:59]Matt: Yeah. Wrong
[00:43:59]Bryan Fields:[00:44:00] happens. Can you imagine that spreadsheet cell
[00:44:05]Matt: it is on that day? I will definitely vote in favor of moving towards the information we can extract from spreadsheets because.
It’s just obvious. I think to individuals like ourselves in this call, consumers are so price sensitive in the industry. And like, despite the fact that I’m not the biggest advocate of this whole idea of, you know, the highest tier, the highest ESE percentage products, the consumers don’t give a shit of, like my opinion, consumers are going to consumers are going to vote with their dollars.
And if someone comes along and they say, you know, there’s a GMO product, which is going to cost 50% last versus not a builder product I have. And you know, it was producing the cultivation of cannabis. I think we all know what they’re going to choose. There might be a very small percentage of consumers who opt for a different option, but I think long term, this has to be the future of the industry, if not for, you know, a failure on the part of these companies to execute and their already.
[00:44:49]Bryan Fields: And for consistency as well. So I think that was we could spend 50 minutes on that. Let’s take a different approach, Matt, your biggest misconception since you’ve been in the cannabis. [00:45:00]
[00:45:00]Matt: My biggest misconception is that we’re all in the industry can. Same reason. I think that there is a to kind of articulate that in a different way, this assumption that there is a culture of cannabis.
I think there is many cultures of cannabis. I think. For myself. I’d like to think I’m part of the culture of cannabis, where by I am much more interested in our patients receiving access to cannabis versus that of our companies making profits from the plant. I think that the new sort of cohort of people going into the cannabis are much more interested in cannabis from a commercialization standpoint.
And that’s not to say that I’m not, I am deeply interested in what’s happening from a commercialization standpoint, but if I’ve just started defining the culture of cannabis that I sort of recognize. It is this idea that, you know, we are a community, we are collectively seeking to change the world for everyone’s best interest.
My assumption was that everyone sort of shared those ideals. I think I quickly realized that as I said, there are many different cultures of cannabis. That is the one I recognize most with our self identify with, but I’ve just come to accept that. You know, very different motivations for joining the cannabis industry.
And I, I don’t [00:46:00] look down upon anyone who is coming into the industry, such that they can generate a dollar. I do look down upon people who are coming in to screw people over. That is something I have no tolerance for, nor will I ever have a tolerance for. However, that was sort of an assumption, which has recently been challenged.
And I just kind of came to accept that there is no single culture of cannabis. Rather. There is multiple that exist within the industry. You could sum up your experience
[00:46:20]Bryan Fields: into a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation. What would that be
[00:46:26]Matt: play? The long game? This industry is just getting started.
And I think there’s a lot of people who can make this industry with the intention of making a quick buck. I think this industry is going to change the world in ways, which we can barely begin to even estimate. Right. Honestly, I think if you’re in this industry and you’re willing to play the long game, you will be significantly rewarded as a result of that.
And that might mean, you know, taking a lesser down position, such that you work with a company who actually values your values and going to go back to the original conversation of, you know, not asking your staff to recommend products that use yourself with not [00:47:00] consume items like that. I think a lot of people are really in a rush.
I think a lot of people will feel as though if they don’t really sort of. Make the most out of the industry right now, they’re going to miss out on the chance to the reality is cannabis remains illegal in 99% of nations around the world. We are all going to look back upon these times and laugh at how nerdy we were and how, you know, we were overlooking the fact that it was just getting started.
So I think if you play the long game and you’re patient, and you’re willing to work with people who share similar values to you, I don’t see a world in which you don’t actually benefit from the. I guess the commercialization of cannabis, but just, just play the long game. Short term games are great, but unfortunately short term gains usually come at a cost.
So yeah, to play the long-term game. All right, prediction time, we’ve talked a
[00:47:42]Bryan Fields: ton about the importance of budtenders and the role that they play in helping consumers find the right product. In my opinion, for bud tender, to make an accurate product recommendation, the customer needs to be able to answer a few basic questions about their own personal experience and what they’re looking for.
Matt. What do you think is the most [00:48:00] important item for a consumer to know about themselves prior to asking a bud tender a
[00:48:04]Matt: recommendation that cannabis affects everyone differently? That to me is if we want to change the conversation away from the advocacy to the bill economy, that single piece of information is enough to completely turn the industry on its head in terms of phasing that out of its existence.
The reason why it’s at the intensity of a hybrid economy is based on the assumption that the same effect you have in the cup from a cannabis. It’s going to produce the same effect for that on myself, liquidity, beginning to realize that each of us has a pretty unique endocannabinoid system, the way cannabinoid and terpene profiles interact with each of us is very pro.
So at time, if I’m a consumer, you know, granted, I can take some of the things which has been offered from a bud tender from a quality standpoint, like as an example of keynotes about Pedro. And he told me that this product was high quality. I can take that at face value. However, if he was informed me that this product is going to equal this outcome, I would then sort of cross reference that with you.
That’s what affected you, but I know that cannabis affects everyone differently. So I have to sort of work through the process [00:49:00] of what is the right chemical composition of cannabis for that of myself. So I think that singular piece of information is enough to completely turn the industry on its head and finally phase out this indicative of economy.
[00:49:10]Kellan Finney: I agree with that. I would just add that consumers need to understand why they’re going into, to purchase any cannabinoid product, right. And also what they’re comfortable, what means or media they’re comfortable consuming that cannabis with. Right. A lot of people are uncomfortable smoking for health, health reasons, right?
So going in knowing that you’re not going to purchase something that you’re gonna light on fire and you’re using it to help you sleep is going to have. The bud tender died you through that selection process the first time? I think those two factors coupled with understanding that everyone reacts differently to, to cannabinoids and terpenes together, I think that could really make a, make your, if you’re a first time consumer it’ll make your experience so much more enjoyable.
What do you think, Brian? [00:50:00] I think
[00:50:00]Bryan Fields: for me, it’s about you don’t always have to be consuming cannabinoids to get it. Sometimes I’ve got pain and I want CBD to kind of alleviate the pain. I don’t want to take Advil. So that’s the route I can take. Or if I am looking to feel kind of light, I’ll take like a two to one because the balance of the cannabinoids together make me feel like my intended hopeful, hopeful perspective.
So I think it’s about having more chances than not, right? Like you go in there, you can have an authentic experience, maybe a bad bud tender, maybe bed, product choice, maybe a bad day. There’s so many variables to play and it’s not one size fits all. And it’s one of those. It’d be great if it was like a Lockton science where this product that makes you feel like this for this individual, but we’re not there yet.
So I think being patient and trying different product types and kind of taking a variety of different information recommendations you have, I think will be the perfect way for people who are experiencing cannabis for the first time and not have a one and done experience. It’s not the same type of cannabis where you had an edible.
And he got so scared. He couldn’t leave your room. It’s not the same space anymore. [00:51:00] Very, very different. And it starts with understanding that you have to know about all of these in place, what you’re doing and how the game works. So, Matt, before we wrap up, where can our listeners get in touch with you?
I’ll link up everything
[00:51:12]Matt: in the show notes. If you want to reach out, I’d say, do it on LinkedIn or Twitter. Alternatively, a funny enough, I probably would see the last messages on Twitter. So if I was like sort of reverse engineer myself, I said, that’s probably the best place to reach out. I’ll probably respond to you fast run that ever settling in, just because like so many messages of people pitching me services.
I don’t want on LinkedIn such that I’ve kind of reached the point in time or by a filter a lot of that out. But yeah, if you wanna check out for VM, it’s just fou rpm.com. Newsletter. We send out every single day. What the excitement of some, if there’s no news to report, but yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter are probably the two best platforms, which I don’t.
I would definitely
[00:51:46]Bryan Fields: recommend it for everyone out there listening. It’s well worth the read and it’s not too long. If you’re one of those where at, I don’t really have time to read, you can quickly skim through it. And sometimes if I’m looking for, in a rush, I just go right down because I’m just looking for Matt’s take on it.
So I definitely recommend it. Thanks for your time, Matt. [00:52:00] Appreciate it. And look forward my [00:52:01]Matt: absolute pleasure precipitation. Just thanks.