Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
Kaelan Castetter is the Managing Director of Castetter Cannabis Group
Kaelan has been in the New York hemp industry since 2015 as the founder of Sovereign Vines. Kaelan is also a co-founder of NYCGPA and helps to lead the discussion around adult-use cannabis legalization and legislative efforts. He played a key role in negotiations over the Hemp Extract Bill during the 2019 legislative session. the founder of Sovereign Vines: America’s Only Hemp Infused Wine and Castetter Sustainability Group (CSG), receiving the first issued hemp processor license in 2017. As CEO, he has developed CSG as a leader in helping New York hemp companies, and farmers navigate the complex supply-chain, regulations, and compliance on a state and national level. He strives to make CSG a leader in political, regulatory, and compliance advisement throughout the state and helping small businesses succeed in all sectors of the cannabis markets. Kaelan is also a co-founder of the New York Cannabis Growers & Processors Association, a group that was heavily involved in discussions around adult-use cannabis legalization and helped to write the Hemp Extract Bill during the 2019 legislative session.
https://www.castettercannabis.com/
This show is presented to by 8th Revolution:
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in regard to the hemp & cannabis industry. Our forward-thinking team can diagnose, analyze & optimize every detailed nuance of your company to keep your business safe, smart, and profitable. Our flexibility and experience combined with ongoing research create unique insights into how to best grow your market share. Contact us directly at [email protected]
Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24
Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: What’s up guys. Welcome back to episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is my guy Kaelin Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest, a second killing in the billing Kaelin.
[00:00:12] Kaelan Castetter: how you doing Kevin? Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. And this is going to be confusing here with Callan and myself, but it’s okay.
[00:00:19] I’ve dealt with it before and it’ll be, I will
[00:00:22] Bryan Fields: try to do a better job deviating other Kellen. How are you?
[00:00:26] Kellan Finney: I’m doing well. I mean, honestly the same name thing really helps fees. The, the east coast favoritism
[00:00:32] Bryan Fields: today, I guess, before we get started, it’s very important to state exactly where you’re located.
[00:00:38] Kaelan Castetter: Yeah, so well, I’m, I’ve been based out in New York, my entire life, but right now we’re based out of Manhattan. I’m in the our Manhattan office, which is in Rockefeller center. But we do do work all the stages before we got on. We’re chatting about how I just got back from a Buffalo yesterday, work with a lot of great businesses out there and and it states massive and it’s just, you know, it’s, it’s really great to see all the different ideas [00:01:00] and these regions, you know, kind of develop their own identity within cannabis.
[00:01:04] Yeah. And it’s a really
[00:01:05] Bryan Fields: exciting time, especially here in New York. So I guess before we kind of dive into the state of New York and some of those other areas, can you take us back before? Was there a time before you got into cannabis? Can you tell us a little bit how you got into.
[00:01:17] Kaelan Castetter: Yeah, so, well, I’ve kind of been in cannabis my entire life.
[00:01:20] Right. So, you know, my father had started hemp infused wine. When I was before I was born, actually, technically. And so in the late nineties he developed that business. It became nationwide. So my earliest memories, you know, I was like three, four years old is, you know, traveling with them to the New York state fair and sleeping.
[00:01:38] You know, as he sold wine and the wine pavilion there. And when I started college at Binghamton university, I decided to try to restart the venture, the hemp infused wine venture. And that was back in 2015. And so, you know, ever since then, you were the first licensed processor in the state of New York.
[00:01:52] And ever since I’ve just been knee deep in it, you know, and that’s been, my life is, is cannabis here in, in the empire state. I love it. So I want to talk [00:02:00] right about
[00:02:00] Bryan Fields: the Hampton fuse wine. Can you tell us like what that is? How does it taste and kind of
[00:02:05] Kaelan Castetter: the little origin. Yeah, I mean, you need to taste it, right?
[00:02:08] Like I’m not going to give it justice. You know, my dad is excellent at explaining, you know, have infused wine, but essentially, you know, what it was is it was a terpene, a hemp derived terpene that we put in the wine and it just, it gave the wine and added layer of depth and this move earthy roundness to the finish.
[00:02:28] That was unbelievably unique. Right. And so we always used to say, we’re a wine. That we’re using a hemp derived, you know, ingredient to enhance, right? We’re not a hemp product that has wine, right. This isn’t gonna get you high. There’s no CBD. And it doesn’t mean additional benefits. We are going to compete and we actually won a double blind.
[00:02:48] We placed in, in a double blind, we got a bronze medal and a double blind test at the fingerlings international wine competition. So we’re in the blend category. So no one knew is happened for his wine. These judges were tasting it and they said, wow, [00:03:00] this is really good. And we met him. I mean, that’s, that’s huge.
[00:03:02] Right? So at that point we really knew. Or wine was in the Rosa mansion. Our Rosie was, and that was huge. So you know, we felt really great about it until the feds shut us down at the beginning of 2020. But you know, it’s. Got a lot of reserve bottles. And at some point I think the regulatory landscape will open up for us to bring it back.
[00:03:24] I think that’s really well
[00:03:26] Bryan Fields: said, and I know you’re really involved there. So I’m excited to kind of dive into some of those topics, but I want to go to, to kill him Finney on that. Have you heard anyone doing that? And also like it’s pretty unique from standpoint from we’ve spoken to a lot of people in the space.
[00:03:37] That’s the first time I’ve heard that about. That
[00:03:40] Kellan Finney: is the first time I’ve heard it. I’ve seen, I saw like a hemp vodka maybe two years ago out in California and I tried it and I was like, well, it kind of just tastes like vodka, right? Like I haven’t heard it with wine or even beer. And the only thing I
[00:03:53] Kaelan Castetter: have heard is integrating CBD.
[00:03:55] Right. Just the
[00:03:56] Kellan Finney: cannabinoid, not the actual flavor profile to [00:04:00] enhance the current like chemical constituent, but it’s present in Y so my first question was, is there a specific, like hemp strain that you guys had to focus on when you were developing that line? Or is it, how did that whole thing kind of
[00:04:13] Kaelan Castetter: come to fruition?
[00:04:14] W well, you know, so the context is, you know, we were doing this in 2016 and in 2017, in terms of R and D and what we had, what I had. You know, the description of what the wine tasted like. And. I didn’t remember what it tastes like. The wine at that point had been, it wasn’t good anymore, you know? And so it was basically me trying to figure out, and my dad had no idea because what he was doing is he was getting a hemp extract from the border, the German Dutch.
[00:04:43] And bringing it into the United States and infusing it into the wine. And that was the extent of it. You know, at this time there wasn’t as many, you know, conversations about turpines the hemp industry was very nation in terms of especially cannabinoid, hemp growing. And so I just, you know, we tried, we started with seed [00:05:00] oil, right?
[00:05:00] That’s the most logical hemp oil, always hemp seed oil started with that. I mean, it tastes like shit, you know, I mean, in wine it tastes terrible. Right. And. So, so we’re, you know, we’re, we’re going through all this. And actually it was me connecting in with Bluebird botanicals, which was a small startup at the time.
[00:05:21] They had a little office in Broomfield Colorado and I went out there. So they actually, what happened was, is they sent me. Actually we think we might have something for you. Cause I described what I was doing. I was like, all right. And they sent it, they sent me the tracking information and I got this an emphasis on your list is going to be familiar with this.
[00:05:39] But I got an email saying, you know your packages at the post office. No, I go down to the post office. Right. And you know, they, they, you know, they asked for my ID and everything like that and they hand over the. And all of a sudden the entire post office smells like, but, and I was like, wait, this could be it.
[00:05:59] And I brought it to [00:06:00] my dad and immediately he was like, I think, I think we’re close. Yeah. Like I think this is, this is probably it. And so, so we did so for, they used it in the formulation of the CBD products. Right. And so for, you know, For a few years. I mean, that’s what we used. We used a, I don’t know if it was strain-specific at all.
[00:06:16] It was, you know, it was, it was coming in and it was coming from Colorado and it actually led to that, that question now gallon. That’s why we stepped into the research pilot program in New York state. We wanted to start growing. Specifically, you know, matching the genetics with what we wanted to see in the wine.
[00:06:35] And we started to think, Hey, I mean, maybe, you know, for a cab, we want a different terpene profile then for our Cuba. Oh smart. Yeah. So but yeah, that’s, that’s, that was what we’re driving at. There is spreading that and now, just now really has, turpines really advanced to a point where you can start to do that and you can start to pick and choose the flavors that you want.[00:07:00]
[00:07:00] Bryan Fields: So many questions. Right? My first one would be, has anyone like that has to be something where someone on the west coast has seen this and be like, we need to start this program immediately. And then my second question would be. Let’s say five years from now, is there a potential for cannabinoid infused wine?
[00:07:16] That’s something that you’ve kicked around at least thought about internally.
[00:07:19] Kaelan Castetter: Take us through that thought process. Yeah. Well, so yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s a great question. I mean, these, you know, to, to start off with, you know, in terms of competition, right? I mean, we, my dad was the first obviously, you know, we talking about in the nineties, right.
[00:07:31] And we were, you know, the, the first, because of the continuation and we were the only for a time, but you know, you start to see other products that have. The reason why it hasn’t been copied because there’s a good product. Right. And it’s definitely been tasted by people way more capitalized. And we were at a time and much bigger infrastructure in terms of wine, the TTB, right.
[00:07:51] It’s the feds, the feds do will not allow it. And so you start to see, you know, if you see in California non-alcoholic. [00:08:00] THC infused or a CBD infused, you know? Yeah. There was a a hemp hemp or beer and November that by, by new Belgium. And what they did is they use botanically, derived, TURPs to try to match the profile and you can’t do it.
[00:08:13] You just can’t do it. Botanically derived. Perhaps it’s got to come from the source. You see some like seed, you know, hemp extract, seed infused wine. It was like one out of Texas, but yeah, I mean that’s why no one’s ever done it again is because the TTB. There’s no path to the TTB. I mean, we anguished, you know, we spent years on it and right now there’s no, there’s no path that they want the FDA to approve hemp derived turpines as grass is generally recognized as safe.
[00:08:38] And I don’t see that happening anytime soon. Yeah, I agree. And
[00:08:42] Kellan Finney: also, I mean, in California where like the main wine industry is they, I mean, California just got their act together to grow him. Right. So they weren’t even able to grow hampered. The whole CBD and THC worlds were separate. So I could see why there no one could even touch it.
[00:08:56] And I mean, log Anita’s right. They got in a lot of trouble too, because they [00:09:00] started putting CBD in their beer. And so there is some challenges.
[00:09:04] Kaelan Castetter: What the tea TTB, what does that say? So that’s the tobacco Trek, tobacco tax trade bureau. And so what happened after nine 11 was the ATF. They regulate alcohol, will they split the TTB off?
[00:09:17] So the TTB is actually in the treasury department. And their main function is to collect tax on alcohol. Right. There’s a federal excise tax, but they also do all the label and formula approvals and every state. Defers to the federal government and the TTB in terms of, you know, whether their product can be sold or not.
[00:09:34] Do you have a TTB label? New York state was the same way. We actually got the first wine label approval for just New York state in state liquor authority, history. What was that process like? It was challenging. It was, you know, why I think I’ve charted this course in being so involved in policy.
[00:09:51] Right. Because I saw firsthand how this affects you know, businesses and also, I, you know, certain part of it, I, you know, I enjoy it. I think it’s fine. Right. You know, [00:10:00] but it culminated that process culminated in a meeting with myself, my. Three attorneys from the state liquor authority and chairman Bradley himself at a table talking through this issue.
[00:10:11] And then at the end of that going all right, I think we’ve got a solution here and they figured it out for us, you know, credit to your governor Cuomo’s office at the time, Donald Pardot, who’s our assembly woman. She really pushed. And yeah, they said, all right, well, we’re going to lie. You do this, but ag and markets, you know, who was regularly in the pilot program, they said, they’re going to have to cover you somehow.
[00:10:31] And they said, all right, well, let’s create this processing license and you’re the first processor. So yeah, so that it was it was taught. I mean, and basically I was told by the state If you think the federal government’s wrong, write us a letter on exactly why. And I think they thought that was it.
[00:10:46] They’re like, yeah, we got this kid, you know, we checked the box, you know, and I did, I came back with a 30 page letter on why the federal government was not, you know, their whole explanation on regulating this product was flawed and wrong [00:11:00] and you know, their idea that they had to be beholden to treaty obligation.
[00:11:04] Flat-out incorrect. So that leads me to think too, you know, if I, if I had the, the money and the kahunas to do it, I could’ve probably sued the government, the federal government in Won But that’s not always the best idea. I love the mindset
[00:11:17] Bryan Fields: though, the approach, right? Like, they’re like, Hey, like write us a letter.
[00:11:20] And you’re like, absolutely. I will. So I guess my question is who do you address that to is a dear Mr. President, dear white house. Like, just start that because for me, when I started, it’s like, all right, who am I writing to? So.
[00:11:31] Kaelan Castetter: Yeah. I mean, it’s just to, to the SLA, right. Say liquor authority and it went to their attorneys.
[00:11:35] And I think after their attorneys read that, they said, wait, there’s actually something here. And then also we have the governor and governor Cuomo and this, you know, it comes out later and everything, but, you know, governor Como ran everything as part of that government. And if governor Como wanted something done, it was done.
[00:11:51] And so the governor was out there that summer that we were trying to get this done, seeing that the hemp industry was going to be big for you. Well, the first hand business is going to be [00:12:00] denied now, you know what I mean? So there was will, but without us providing serious legal justification, which we did, and you know, at the time, you know, I was in college.
[00:12:09] Right. And I was like I may have actually dropped out at that point. So they I’m a college dropout you know, a few policy classes. You know, and, and really sitting down and thinking about these issues. Yeah. You got to take on the
[00:12:19] Bryan Fields: federal government. Who’s got time for college when you
[00:12:21] Kaelan Castetter: got to take on the government.
[00:12:22] You’re precisely. Right. So let’s get into some of
[00:12:25] Bryan Fields: the policy. I appreciate you kind of setting that teeny, take us through your role here in New York state and kind of, you know, how your.
[00:12:32] Kaelan Castetter: Yeah. Well, so I’m involved in a lot of fronts, right? I’m I’ve been involved in of an operations throughout the, you know, throughout the past five years.
[00:12:40] Right now what I do is I’m the managing director of the cancer cannabis group. We’re a small boutique firm that helps you know, our clients, you know, medium-sized small businesses throughout the state, understand the regulations, understand the law. And also act on their behalf in terms of government relations and lobbying.
[00:12:56] So we’re a lobbyist. We work with a lot of legacy you know, market [00:13:00] operators. We work with a plethora of different industry operate. We, we bring an operational understanding to policy and advocacy plan development. I also serve, and I’m a co-founder. The New York cannabis grows and prosper association.
[00:13:14] And I serve on their board as vice-president and also co-chair of the policy committee. So we’re the largest trade association in the state. When it comes to cannabis, we have over 250 members and we are essentially a vehicle for the small businesses in the small business interests of the New York canvas industry through representing an Albany.
[00:13:33] So, you know, that’s what I spent. No my days and my time, trying to figure out how to effectively communicate to the regulators and lawmakers, how to roll this industry out in the way that they promised it would. Right. You know, with emphasis on equity and small business development and craft cannabis.
[00:13:49] So how do we get there and how do regulations seriously, you know, affect that process?
[00:13:54] Bryan Fields: I mean, that’s perfectly said, so I’m going to have to ask how do we get.
[00:13:59] Kaelan Castetter: Yeah, [00:14:00] well, yeah, I mean, listen, there’s a, there’s a lot of battles that have to be won, right. And they’re not just going to be one this year for next year, right.
[00:14:07] It’s over the net. But you know, first what the state needs to do is understand the three largest barriers to entry for any entrepreneurial business, especially these social equity businesses, or like see operators the first ones. Right. And the state just announced $200 million in a fund for social equity businesses.
[00:14:24] That’s unprecedented. That’s never happened before. Right? So, so the state gets that right now. The second barrier to entry is you know, probably a real estate, right. Site control as a huge barrier. And I think the state is trying to figure out how to address that and capital in some ways kind of dress that, but real estate is, is a big, is a big, big thing.
[00:14:41] The third one where I’m most focused on. Is compliance right? There is absolutely no reason to regulate this industry any more strict than alcohol. There is. Like, there, there is. There’s no public health justification for regulating cannabis, like a pseudo pharmacy. [00:15:00] Right. Especially when you don’t even have those pathways available, you even sell cannabis across state lines or as a supplement.
[00:15:05] Right. So, but yet you’re, we’re going to, you know, track and trace everything. We’re going to have to provide 20 pages of instruction manuals on what to do. If you get too high with every single purchase of a product. Right. You know, no billboards, I mean, these kinds of things are. Are are bad for the market.
[00:15:23] And what ends up happening is the only people they benefit or these companies that have in-house compliance teams, you know, the M the big MSLs, and those that can rise to an economies of scale where the compliance burdens don’t even matter. Right? Because they shrink the margin so much that everything is focused on top line.
[00:15:38] Right? Well, if you want small businesses succeed, you have to allow them to make money. Without having to worry about their top line being 50 or a hundred million dollars, right. Because that’s just not feasible. So the compliance is a big thing. It’s like, you know, how do we, you know, New York is this proving ground of innovation globally in across so many sectors [00:16:00] finance and tech fashion food, right?
[00:16:04] Cannabis can be the same, but if you hand it, if you handcuff these entrepreneurs and what they can and cannot do, that’s never gonna. Right. So, so that’s really from an overall, from a broad level, that is really a big focus is okay. How do we, you know, make sure that that things are not over-regulated just for the sake of over-regulating more because some regulators are nervous or in many cases undereducated.
[00:16:27] Right. I know think there is this and especially in New York, right. I think they want to get it right. They just don’t know the issues. They don’t know how these issues affect, you know, all this and this. You know, this is, this is why we, I decided to step in and become a lobbyist and register and, you know, work on behalf of these clients because they need to be at the table.
[00:16:46] Right. You have a right to petition your government and it shouldn’t just be those, the big moneyed interests being able to do so.
[00:16:53] Kellan Finney: So compliance. I have a question how much time you spend. Looking at like what’s working and what’s not working and all the other kinds of [00:17:00] adult use markets right out.
[00:17:01] Kaelan Castetter: Yeah.
[00:17:01] Well, so, so my team spends a lot of time on that. Right? I do spend all the time, you know, really the, you know, the star of the show in a lot of ways is my director of policy. Who’s Kate Ruby, and she spends her entire day, you know, diving into rags and other states looking at that, you know, looking at rags and other sectors, right.
[00:17:20] Looking at the alcohol beverage control law here, you know, looking at. No waste, they regulate different products. But yeah, I mean, other states are, are key to give us insights and what has worked and what’s not, and what you can borrow and what you shouldn’t be looking at. Right. I mean, like, you know, Massachusetts has gotten so many things wrong in so many ways, but they’ve also got some things, right.
[00:17:38] You know, same thing with Illinois, same thing with California, same thing with all of these places. Right? So you can find things that have worked and things that haven’t worked in, all these other states and the difficult part of that. Is that every state has completely different demographics and completely different marketplace that then saying this worked here, so it work here or it didn’t work here, you know, a regulator can go back and go, wow.
[00:17:59] [00:18:00] Yeah. But we have 29 people or, yeah. But, well, it’s not quite like that, but I will look at this other state, so you can go down a rabbit hole and looking at other states and sometimes you just. And I block that out and think about what’s best for New York.
[00:18:11] Bryan Fields: So I want to stay with the educational piece because I think that’s so important, especially when you’re talking about the lawmakers and people, making the decisions.
[00:18:17] I saw a quote from you, communicating with lawmakers, providing them with data is important. Is that challenging to present the information let’s say in a simple, clean understanding way. So you’re not kind of talking down to them, but you’re also communicating the benefits of certain areas because that’s a really fine line.
[00:18:32] When you’re speaking with some of these individuals, can you take us behind the scenes on how that
[00:18:35] Kaelan Castetter: conversation. Yeah, absolutely. So there’s two ways that you really have to present this data and experiences, right? From a qualitative perspective and a quantitative. My favorite way of going in with a client is telling my client, listen, be as authentic as possible and explain to them who you are, how you fit into the marketplace, you know, with this craft robust, you know, equity focused marketplace.
[00:18:58] Give them some specific examples [00:19:00] of how this specific piece of regulation would hurt you as a business, or I already is. Right. So that’s really important. And as that especially works with lawmakers too, because now they really understand, you know, constituency with it, they’re across all these different issues.
[00:19:11] Right. But to center it, you know, with someone, with, you know, a real life experience, I think is huge. The second part is the data. Right. And, you know, right now, and one of the major initiatives of the NYC GPA and myself and my clients is getting rid of this potentially disastrous THC tax in New York.
[00:19:27] Right. It’s just absurd. And so, and it actually was you know, the, the, the, the brainchild of a former regulator, who’s not here in New York Norman Berenbaum, he’s not even here. Right. And he’s not part of the New York program anymore. And so. You know, it’s a holdover and in many levels it is not going to work, but, you know, to explain to the state how changing it won’t result in a loss of tax revenue for them, and actually could end up with a, you know, a positive bump in revenue forecasting.[00:20:00]
[00:20:00] That’s really important because you know, the, the tax analysts at the. That’s all they care about. And the budget director, that’s all they care about is continuing to balance the budget. Right. They don’t want to see, you know, they made these projections and they’re like, well, listen, you know, we made, so, you know, for instance, you know, we’ve looked at other states and how, when you drop the tax rate, Total receipts per capital go up.
[00:20:21] Right? So that means tax revenues actually going up, you know, and it’s hard to make them understand this, that, Hey, listen, you drop the tax revenue. You’re going to get people purchasing it more. Right. Cause the illicit market still here and you have a certain amount of price parity with consumers. So, you know, bringing that data in is really important.
[00:20:36] But did that is sometimes tough. Right? So another, another example is we’re looking at the correlation between California decoupling their, their tax code from two 80. And then you actually see their tax revenues rise, but it’s that just because more consumers are coming online or is that because they decoupled it from, from two 80?
[00:20:52] Right. So, you know, sometimes it’s hard to draw you know, correlations in the data. Yeah.
[00:20:58] Bryan Fields: There’s so many moving pieces. Right. And [00:21:00] without kind of like a constant, you, can’t kind of, you’re not tweaking, just one variable. There’s multiple variables at play here. So continuing on that path is the THC tax that’s financially driven or is that like to protect the.
[00:21:11] Kaelan Castetter: Well, I don’t know. I mean, listen, why they implemented that is beyond me. I mean, if you look at their justification last year on why they won, they said to promote temperance. Right. And again, I think that’s old guard. I mean, you got to understand New York, we have a new governor, right. Completely new way of doing things.
[00:21:28] And and so. You know, under the last governor, governor Cuomo was not a huge supporter of cannabis at all. Right. And was very hesitant. And so I think they, you know, whatever, you know, regulator thought this up that, well, if we have a THC tax, then like higher potency strains of cannabis, won’t be purchased by consumers.
[00:21:44] Right. Because it would be more expensive and yeah. I mean, there’s certain amount of truth that. You know, there’s just so much nuance to why a consumer makes the choice they do. Right. And in a, I truly believe in a mature marketplace that doesn’t have too much, you know, [00:22:00] regulatory intervention consumers are going to buy the cannabis that makes them feel the best.
[00:22:04] Right. And yes, maybe if their first few years they’re going, you’re going to see the highest THC strains purchase. But as you start to deregulate the industry and really give them choice and access there, they’re going to fall into a point where they’re going to buy, you know, right. You know, if you’re a consumer.
[00:22:19] You don’t know what the percent of THC is in the, in the bud that you’ve been buying for 20 years. Right. All of a sudden you do, of course, that’s going to influence your buying decision. Right. But that’s, that’s just the beginning, right? Let’s look long-term and they’re going to want the canvas that makes them feel the best.
[00:22:35] That has a brand that they relate to most, you know, maybe provide some sort of a social status symbol, right. Is where we get into this whole. You know, quality craft cannabis brands. So yeah, I mean the, the, the reasoning behind it doesn’t really make sense. I think it’s just, it’s convoluted, right? I mean, it goes down and basically assigns attacks to the milligram of THC in a product.
[00:22:54] And anyone who’s grown cannabis knows that, you know, cannabis matures from the top down until your bottom buds are [00:23:00] going to be a lot, have a lot less THC than your top buzz. Right. So how you homogenize a sample across an entire batch to get, you know, an accurate reading also. You know, it, it creates incentives for growers maybe to leave a little more trim on the buds before it goes through testing to get a low, lower number.
[00:23:17] I mean, and then it just it’s, it’s, it’s strange. And then edibles are also taxed at a higher rate per THC, per milligram, THC than flour. Right? So it kind of disincentivizes the purchase of that. Bye. I don’t know. You know, so yeah. I mean, if it’s a real, truly a public safety approach, you know, then the state should invest in education and, and not a strange convoluted tax scheme.
[00:23:44] So I
[00:23:45] Kellan Finney: have, yeah, I just cause I’m out in Colorado and I’m not as close to this THC tax that you guys are discussing right now. So there could potentially kind of be a double. Going on from the government’s perspective. Right? So in Colorado, the [00:24:00] cannabis that has higher THC concentrations, it’s, what’s called like top shelf.
[00:24:04] Right. And you pay a premium for that. Right. And so if all. Cannabis flower is taxed the same, but this flower, you pay more for technically the government’s going to get more money for that flower because the percentage of the large numbers is going to be a large number. Correct. Right. And so then they’re also taxing it on there’s a separate tax then on the THC milligrams per.
[00:24:27] As well, that’s separate from the sales tax. Am I
[00:24:30] Kaelan Castetter: understand correctly? Yeah. And it gets assessed earlier on in the chain. So it actually gets assessed at the wholesale level. So you actually have compounding of taxes. So the retail tax paying tax on a tax. That’s
[00:24:41] Bryan Fields: what I thought.
[00:24:42] Kellan Finney: Yeah. I was like,
[00:24:42] Bryan Fields: I just want to make sure we’re clear.
[00:24:43] Kaelan Castetter: Okay. You’re paying tax on a tax. Fundamentally. We don’t do that in the United States. We don’t have that tax in the United States because of that. We don’t compound taxes, so it doesn’t make sense. Yeah. So our suggestion is just to increase if they need more tax. Yeah. No right now, it’s like I believe it’s [00:25:00] 12.2, 5% or 13.2, 5% is the retail sales tax.
[00:25:05] Right. You can increase that to 20%. I think we’re still in a good zone there and that, and then remove the excise tax here completely. And I think you have more grocery seats actually. The state and to the state tax coffers. Yeah.
[00:25:18] Bryan Fields: It turns out if you just change an Excel sheet number to a higher number, you can really exponentially increase your return.
[00:25:25] So they’re like, well, look at this and we just change this number here,
[00:25:27] Kaelan Castetter: look at the return for us. And
[00:25:29] Bryan Fields: it’s like, that’s great and dandy, but that’s not how real life works. So I want to go back to you when you have these conversations with these policymakers and you let them know you overtax the consumer, the one who wants this.
[00:25:39] They’re going to still purchase their product, but they’re going to go back to the legacy market and you can use, obviously California’s a really strong example. Are they understanding that there’s a very thin line or are they more like, we don’t really care? This is how it’s going to work?
[00:25:50] Kaelan Castetter: Meaning, well, it depends.
[00:25:51] I mean, it depends on who you’re talking to. Right? I mean, there’s all these different stakeholders. Right. There is, you know, lawmakers who are very [00:26:00] interested in their ag cultural communities. Right? So for instance, assembly woman party, I talked about earlier, she’s chair of the ag committee, right? And Senator Hinch is chair of the ag committee in the Senate.
[00:26:08] And they’re interested in their constituencies who, you know, we’re talking about agricultural communities. Growers and processors. Right. But then, you know, you have you know, some lawmakers like Senator Liz, Krueger who champion the MRTA she’s so Manhattan, right? So her constituents is completely different.
[00:26:23] And when she’s thinking about is completely different from then regulators and some regulators are brought from department of health, some are being brought over from, you know, the governor’s office. I mean, all different places. So you have all these different perspectives and these different stakeholders.
[00:26:35] And then when you get to the advocacy side, you know, for instance, you know, as an association, we have. Legacy operators. We have retail, prospective retailers. We have CBD manufacturers, we have growers, we have all these different. So we have to kind of distill, you know, what’s best for, you know, the, the broad, the overall membership and the lawmakers and regulators, you know, kind of are too.
[00:26:55] And the reality is, is sometimes, you know, the only intent is okay, how [00:27:00] can we make this a revenue opportunity now what the legislature did though, which is in a lot of ways. Great. They allocated the tax. Right. And so, you know, and, and, and the context behind that too, with Como Como and the legislature never really got along.
[00:27:17] Right? So the legislature always wanted to know where tax revenue was going when they created new mechanisms and the. One it into his discretionary, we call the general fund here in New York state. Right? So there’s always this back and forth, and this is the tax issue and where the tax revenue goes was probably one of the most important discussions to legalization actually happening.
[00:27:38] And that was probably where the lawmakers were most engaged. Right. So, you know, the, most of the revenue is already allocated. You know, there’s community reinvestment fund, you know, some of it’s going into the state lottery fund, which it goes to education. So, you know, it’s already allocated. And so yes, those specific programs, you want to be funded more, but the state isn’t looking at.[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Tax revenue from cannabis as helping, you know, with any sort of deficits or, well, now we’re in a surplus in New York, but, you know, adding a surplus or anything like that. So there isn’t that incentive necessarily on the table to increase tax revenue. I really think it’s, this is an economic and social equality and equity bill at its core.
[00:28:20] Bryan Fields: So slightly switching gears. Obviously New York is a little behind New Jersey and Connecticut made some waves for moving fast. Are we going to be that far behind we as in New York, when, when New Jersey comes rec and I don’t have an actual date, maybe you can share one on the anticipation, but are we gonna just allow everyone to cross the bridge and go into New Jersey?
[00:28:40] Or are we going to expedite our process to try to align a little closer to.
[00:28:45] Kaelan Castetter: Well, listen, I think there’s reasons why we should be trying to move forward and move quickly. I don’t see New Jersey selling products as too much for that, because the reality is, is like, if you’re a new Yorker, why would you go to New Jersey when you can just order from a serve right here in New York?
[00:28:59] You know what I [00:29:00] mean? Like it’s like really easy to get good. In New York and especially New York city. And then you go out to Western New York. It’s very easy. Right. So, you know, I think that actually maybe create more urgency is that the gray market is now becoming even more sophisticated. Right. So you know, New Jersey, I think their speed has created some flaws for instance, are not allowing edibles.
[00:29:21] You know, so there’s some flaws and then the way that they have a lot of local control of the application process, probably isn’t the best way to go. Connecticut is like licensing like a dozen licenses across the entire state. Weird too, you know, so, you know, if it’s going to take a little bit longer for New York to get it right, I’m fine with that.
[00:29:39] I think a lot of people are too. But no, I think, I think the process in New York is underway, right? The regulations are going to be, are being drafted. I think we see them sometime, maybe in the spring. And then a public comment period is going to commence and that’s the way it should, you know, public comments.
[00:29:52] The state has to respond to those comments. And, you know, we saw with the hemp extract law, which we’ve been very engaged with. The state will [00:30:00] change their regulations based on the comments. And I think that’s what we need. And I think if you know, this year of 2022 services a year, that New York state figures it out in 2023 is when we launched the marketplace.
[00:30:12] So be it, you know, it’s better to get it right then to be, get it done quick. Yeah, I think
[00:30:16] Kellan Finney: it’s hard to clean up a giant mess and like go back and try to fix things. And it is to like, just build a solid foundation. You know what I mean,
[00:30:23] Bryan Fields: as tough as that is for you, Brian, I mean sure. Right. And, and yeah.
[00:30:29] It’s fellow test, right. You’re right though. It is, it’s super important that we get it right this time, instead of going back, especially because we can look to other states who have done it wrong or said they were going to do it right. And then did it wrong and then have to kind of walk back the process.
[00:30:42] And it’s really important, especially being the. Of most starting grounds to get it right. So not to put you on the spot, but is there a hopeful anticipation date from an adult use standpoint that we could say we’re targeting
[00:30:54] Kaelan Castetter: this period of. Well, I don’t know. I mean, if you listen to, you know, the [00:31:00] chair Tremaine, right.
[00:31:01] And you know, this is, this is one of those situations where we’re recording at the end of January. Right. And you know, was going to really sit down in February so things could change. Right. You hear a lot in the news about 18 months, 12 months out, stuff like that. Yeah, we’re really going to know. As soon as the, the one, when the regulatory draft package gets released, that’s when the timer starts.
[00:31:25] Right. So I think when they get released, we’re looking at about eight months before we start to see applications and licenses really get underway. Right. So if the regs get released next month, then meaning February, by the time this airs. I doubt it, but it could happen. There we go. That’s when the timer starts.
[00:31:44] Right. And we’re looking at, you know, Q4 if we’re talking about April, we’re looking at the beginning of 20, 23. So
[00:31:52] Bryan Fields: fingers crossed hopeful for adult use purchase before 2023 Not on
[00:31:57] the record, but. Yeah,
[00:31:59] Kaelan Castetter: I [00:32:00] know, I think, and I think it’s plausible too. Honestly. I think it’s plausible that we see, I don’t think we see a full rollout.
[00:32:06] I don’t think you see hundreds of stores throughout the state, but, but maybe, you know, maybe some stores opening up also. I mean, some businesses are going to take longer than others once they get licensed, you know? And so, you know, when I think the state also wants to develop these very complicated incubator programs, social equity fund, those are going to take a little bit longer than.
[00:32:24] Right. So I think we see a rollout over the next three years, and I think three years from now, we are seeing immature New York marketplace. But yeah, I think you might be able to walk in and dispense who adjust your ID and no med card and a in New York and buy Cannabis for the end of the year. I think that’s absolutely on the.
[00:32:41] Just a question just
[00:32:42] Bryan Fields: before you go, you just made a ton of people. Very, very
[00:32:45] Kaelan Castetter: excited and potentially happy. My
[00:32:48] Kellan Finney: question is, so when Washington legalized, they let medical, dispensary’s applied for recreational license. So it kind of, and same with Arizona, correct. In terms of it kind of expedites [00:33:00] that building up the foundation of storefronts, is that something that New York has kind of.
[00:33:04] Kaelan Castetter: Well, so this is the problem. You have 10 licensed medical cannabis companies in New York. We call them Aros, right? The registered organizations nine out of 10. RMSs right. Now 10 out of 10 RM Osos cause one of them was 18, but now I have a license in New Jersey. So technically they’re an MSL. Right. But they are in your company.
[00:33:23] It’s you’re talking about. Columbia care madman will, or Sandra will say, you know, it’s a jump ball. Right. But so, so you have these huge companies, right? And then it’s kind of antithetical to the ideas of equity and small businesses and craft cannabis. So they’re not going to be. First necessarily, but they are all entitled to having a vertically integrated adult use cannabis license at scale, which no one else in the marketplace will be able to do.
[00:33:51] There’s actually a, there’s a cap on vertical integration in New York. So basically the way I explained this is either you can be on a production side or it can be touching the consumer, but you can’t do both [00:34:00] unless you have a micro business, which is like all in contained, you sell your own products and there’s gonna be a cap on production or you’re one of these 10 Aros.
[00:34:06] Right. So that. On when they get to the market and how big and what they can do is a pretty controversial issue. And it’s just because, you know, they’re going to have an outsize advantage in the marketplace and that doesn’t line up with the goals of the law. Right. And so I think regulators are trying to balance that out.
[00:34:25] But they are apps, undoubtedly going to be players in the adult use marketplace. You know, those, those 10 hours.
[00:34:34] Bryan Fields: What’s your feeling on west coast brands coming east? Obviously there’s always a west coast versus east coast battle. And when we talk about premier brands the west coast some refer to it as the best coast and maybe you and I can challenge it differently.
[00:34:47] But when we talk about premier brands, there’s a lot of love for west coast brands based on the positioning and how long they’ve been in business. But I tend to believe that east coast is going to have a different messaging and different marketing scheme because the consumer is different and the experience is different.
[00:34:59] What’s your [00:35:00] thoughts on brand? Going from west to east
[00:35:03] Kaelan Castetter: east coast, east coast. Right. Thank you for that. Yeah. That’s you know it’s not as good, but it works after, but you know, listen, I think what makes New York great and New York city specifically, is that you can find any brand of any product.
[00:35:25] Whether it’s clothing, you can find any sort of food that you want, any sort of, you know, a type of experience you’re looking for. And I think that will continue into the cannabis market. So absolutely west coast brands will have a place in the market. Or are they going to dominate? I don’t think so.
[00:35:42] And, and the reason why is because the consumer is different also, I don’t know how many real brands have taken serious hold and really have captured consumers the way, you know, some of these legacy alcohol brands have, right? Like when you’re, you know, you’ve got people who are Budweiser drinkers through and through to the day they die or highlight, you know what I [00:36:00] mean?
[00:36:00] Like that. That’s the reality. I don’t think you really have that in cannabis yet. Right. And so it’s not like we’re, we’re, we’re, it’s not like that’s coming in right now. You do have cookies and Stacey and you know, all of these other brand new can look, you know, but the other thing too, is those brands are available in New York.
[00:36:16] I mean, it might not actually be from those brands. Right. But at least the packaging says it. So we’re decently familiar with that, but the consumer is different and the way we consume is different. It’s very social I’m in New York city. I think things are very S status. Too, in terms of what you purchased a craft, you know, craft conscious consumers are, are, are, are all the rage in New York and Hudson valley in Western New York.
[00:36:39] So I do think that new you work brands will have an advantage because of that. And because of the story they tell but Hey, this is the ultimate proving ground save. You can make it in New York. You can make it. So I think New York, and I think, you know, myself open arms to west coast brands come compete.
[00:36:55] We’ll see what happens, right. May the best brand win. And I think we’re just, it’s going to be a [00:37:00] cycle. You know, the next 10 years is going to be, this brand is popular and this one and this one and this one and, and, you know, I think. Yeah, we’re still so
[00:37:07] Bryan Fields: early on in the process. And for all those west coast brands that are crushing it, it’s not a, it’s not a diss against you.
[00:37:12] It’s just that the consumer out here is different. They have different interests and they’re not exposed to the same type of messaging and experience. So it might take a little while to kind of have that positioning, but it’s going to be an exciting to watch, especially to see, you know, as let’s say, the market matures as an overall us standpoint, which brands continue to
[00:37:28] Kaelan Castetter: rise in their.
[00:37:29] Yeah, absolutely. I think the culture is different. I think that’s definitely part of it. It’s a culture
[00:37:34] Bryan Fields: and I wonder have monogram with their $50 join or blonde, whatever it is it takes up because that’s a really interesting approach. And when you’re talking about kind of a specific consumer, that to me plays into that status symbol.
[00:37:44] So well, and I wonder if that rises in popularity here when people have, Hey, like, this is what I spent because it is egregious from a spending standpoint, but for some other people it’s a normal, right. It’s a status.
[00:37:54] Kaelan Castetter: No. Yeah. I mean, luxury brands are going to be, are going to be huge. I mean, in New York city, those people who, you know, won’t [00:38:00] buy a bottle of wine.
[00:38:00] If it’s underneath a hundred dollars and people who won’t buy a bottle of wine, it’s underneath 500. Like, you know, you can go to the extreme in terms of wealth in New York. And so, and even though. I don’t have a lot of wealth are still jockeying for that status. And, you know, you can see it with clothing, right.
[00:38:18] You see with alcohol food, and so you, you know, yeah, absolutely. I think luxury brands, I think, are going to have a massive opportunity here in New York. And it will be interesting, you know, And the reality is, is sometimes new Yorkers don’t want New York brand, right? They want, you know, a brand that originates maybe, maybe California, you know, in some ways in the tech terroir and like, you know, everything like that, you know, I know you can’t legally bring that cannabis over into New York, but maybe that brand and that brand presence and using humble is similar to, you know, using.
[00:38:51] Yeah. You know, as a brand in, in, in wine. Right. Who knows? I mean, I think, but I think there’s a play there for sure. But you’re going to have to come with quality. You know, you [00:39:00] can’t come with meds into New York. It’s just not going to work. No, you go. Yeah.
[00:39:05] Bryan Fields: All right. What is one statistic or fact about cannabis that would surprise or shock and everyday?
[00:39:13] Kaelan Castetter: Oh man. Oh, this is this isn’t. This is a tough one, Brian. You know, I think it’s a fact or a statistic about cannabis. I mean, you know, I said it earlier and you know, I think this surprises me. What was that cannabis matures from the top down? I don’t think that’s well recognized and known and that it’s not a homogenous product and it won’t be right. Flower never will be by nature.
[00:39:33] Right. You don’t create it in a lab, you grow it. And so. I think unfortunately and well for, you know, I’ve been very lucky. My father is a grower. I get to see the cold. Most consumers never see those buds. And when you realize those top buds and those Cola’s are insane, they’re dripping with with, with THC, you know, and with, you know, flavor and [00:40:00] turpines so yeah, I think that that just fact, you know, peeking behind the curtain for your everyday consumer that, you know, those top buds or something super special that really grow growers always hold on to their beds.
[00:40:10] Yeah, I imagine. Do, do they
[00:40:12] Bryan Fields: market products in a dispensary to kind of identify that that’s the part of the plant, because that would be an interesting, you know, unique differentiator when you walk in and saying like, this is what I’m looking for from a plan standpoint, do they do that? Not to
[00:40:24] Kellan Finney: my knowledge.
[00:40:24] I know that there’s a trick and. Most cultivators and established adult use markets will send in part of the top bug for analysis. And then the whole planet gets sold with the top bugs
[00:40:37] Kaelan Castetter: CLA. Exactly. And that’s the part of the problem with the THC tax is that most people are getting the B cuts. Right.
[00:40:45] They’re getting the smalls which is okay, but that’s, and that’s why I think also if you go to Colorado and you look at it, you know, the THC usually has a range. I think, I think that’s why too, you know, that they’re trying to, but but but yeah, I mean, listen, I think that that’s a great [00:41:00] idea, right?
[00:41:00] And I think maybe one of your listeners are going to start selling a Cola, buy a Cola. You know what I mean? I think that’s an interesting idea from a dispensary because you can have all those Cola’s then you weigh it. I mean, cause you know, I’ve had six, seven gram Cola’s before, right? So you weigh it and there’s your, you know, 6.4 and you pay for the ground, you know, Yeah.
[00:41:18] I mean, talk about like,
[00:41:19] Bryan Fields: when you walk in and know exactly what you want and you’re not interested in, like, let’s say the lower part of the plan, you’re looking for like the highest portion. And that’s when you talk about like putting a premium on a price standpoint, people will pay for whatever, especially because, you know, if you don’t get it like this one piece, you’re not getting it again because it’s a limited quantity.
[00:41:35] It’s not like it’s a success. That also supports
[00:41:39] Kellan Finney: the craft cannabis thought process. You know what I mean? Because then you’re going to have all this care and love that goes into crafting this beautiful Cola. You know what I mean? Yeah,
[00:41:47] Bryan Fields: exactly.
[00:41:47] Kaelan Castetter: Well, fingers crossed someone.
[00:41:48] Bryan Fields: Does that for us and
[00:41:49] Kaelan Castetter: sends us some samples.
[00:41:51] Yeah. Right. Let me sick
[00:41:53] Bryan Fields: count. Since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest mistake?
[00:41:58] Kaelan Castetter: The biggest misconception [00:42:00] is just that you know, it’s only about these isolated compounds, right? There’s a plant is about THC or it’s about CBD and it’s just not the case. Right. We’re talking about multi Malkiel compounds when we talk about, you know, supplements, but the flower, the experience, everything goes into it and you just can’t neatly put a number on it.
[00:42:20] And I think. That fact right there is known by consumers especially, you know regular consumers, you know, at the core of, of them as you know, but it’s not well understood by the private equity, you know, finance bros in the boardrooms. It just, they don’t. You can’t put it on a spreadsheet, you can’t quantify that.
[00:42:44] And I think that’s the biggest misconception. I think that’s part of the reason why you see such poor performance you know, with these LPs and MSLs and, you know, publicly traded cannabis companies. I think that’s a driving factor is that they miss the point. You know, we’ll
[00:42:59] Bryan Fields: set [00:43:00] before we do predictions, we ask all of our.
[00:43:02] If you can sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would
[00:43:09] Kaelan Castetter: it be? Right. I think, you know, you gain so much from hearing all these people’s perspectives and never assuming that, you know, all about even the S the most specific of any issue. Right.
[00:43:24] And when I, you know, policy, I’m learning new things every single day from people. You know, you wouldn’t even think of right. You know even people all the way down the chain, all the way down to the bud tender and the tremor, right? I mean, when you learn these things in these experiences, I think that, you know, harms you to be a lot better at your job, whatever it is, even if you’re not, you know, looking at developing policy and advocacy platforms is listening and, and never, never trying to be the smartest person in the room.
[00:43:51] Right. If the smartest person in the room, you’re doing something wrong, Yeah,
[00:43:55] Bryan Fields: you’re
[00:43:55] Kaelan Castetter: on the road. You were in the wrong room. You’re in the wrong room. All right. Prediction
[00:43:59] Bryan Fields: [00:44:00] time. Will New York become the largest cannabis market in the United States? If so, when, if not, why not?
[00:44:10] Kaelan Castetter: Yes. By 2020. I thought about this.
[00:44:15] Yeah. All right. But absolutely. Yes. And I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you a big reason why is because we get tens of millions of visitors to New York every single year. And that I think is the biggest thing. We don’t have the population of California and obviously California has a thriving tourism sector and everything like that.
[00:44:35] But you know, New York people come here to spend money and leave. Good luck, Kellen.
[00:44:44] Kellan Finney: I mean, I’m going to go with California just from a straight population standpoint. I think they’ll end up getting their act together. I mean, the laws are written for big business and my one caveat is California in other industries is known as an agricultural Mecca [00:45:00] and the Mo the moment federal legalization passes and interstate commerce occurs.
[00:45:06] I think every single derivative product in terms of vape pens, edibles, anything that isn’t flour can be grown on a mass scale, like they do almonds or other industrial commodity crops. And I think at that point it’s going to be really, really challenging for any other state, including. Oregon Washington, Colorado to compete with just the sheer amount of agricultural land that California has access to.
[00:45:31] And because of that, I think is going to be challenging from a market size, for any other states, even compete with the just gross quantity of cannabis that can be grown in California. California has been the Mecca of cultivation for the last 35 years. And I mean, they’re not going to go down without a fight.
[00:45:48] Kaelan Castetter: What do you think? But what I would say Kaelin, I do think, I would say California will have a bigger industry than New York, but I think a lot of that production will go and be sold in New York. So that’s market [00:46:00] place in New York will be ended up being larger than, than California. That’s a good point,
[00:46:04] Bryan Fields: honestly.
[00:46:05] People come to New York to spend money is the Pitney of a perfect quote because it is absolutely out of control. You know, I had friends that would come and stay with me. I lived in the city and they would just buy everything they could. And it was as if they would never have a chance to come back. And, and it just, there’s a different, I guess, aura or energy when people walk around the city, when they just get just overtaken by that feeling and you’re right.
[00:46:28] I think. I would guess 20, 28, maybe a little more pessimistic than normal for me, but I think it’ll take us a little time to kind of change some stigmas and get those businesses up and running. I think in the short term, the biggest problem new York’s going to have is going to be shortage of product. I think that they’re going to consistently be running out of product and it’s going to frustrate consumers.
[00:46:47] And at the end of the day, the market, as you were saying, it’s going to take a little time to roll out because we want to do it correctly, which isn’t a flaw of the market or the space. It’s just a timing issue. So in that aspect, I think by 2028, when everyone. Absolutely ripping. I think the
[00:46:59] Kaelan Castetter: [00:47:00] numbers would just be absolutely.
[00:47:02] I totally agree. I think he’s going to be under supplied for years. Yeah. And I think that’s hard for
[00:47:06] Bryan Fields: some people, especially here in New York. They’re like, why, well, why do we think that we know that’s going to be a problem already? And it’s because there has to be limitations just given that the rollout and the process, it takes
[00:47:15] Kaelan Castetter: some time.
[00:47:16] Yeah. It takes some time to learn how to grow too. And you know what I mean? And that’s the biggest thing. We might have a supply ample supply of meds, but we’re not going to have a good enough supply of quality buds for years. Am I agreed? Yeah. They’re going to have
[00:47:31] Bryan Fields: to just bring, migrate all the
[00:47:33] Kaelan Castetter: big growers out here.
[00:47:34] Yeah. Right. Or the good growers.
[00:47:41] Bryan Fields: so Kellen for our listeners that want to learn more. They want to get in touch.
[00:47:43] Kaelan Castetter: Where can they go? Yeah. I mean, you know, follow me on Twitter. You know, Instagram, LinkedIn go to our website casts that are cannabis.com and reach out through the footer or, you know, come to me directly. And yeah, we’d love to chat.
[00:47:56] If you’re looking to enter New York, you’re looking to collaborate, you know, [00:48:00] with, with businesses in New York you have some services that you think might be great for some of my clients or whatever, just a yeah. Reach out. Awesome. Yeah. Well, when we get up in the show notes, I appreciate you taking the. [00:48:11] Yeah, thank you for having me.
