Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
Bryan and Kellan sit down with Money Coach and Brand Builder, Jordan Highley of Make More Capital.
After working as a public school educator, Jordan Highley wanted to provide financial education to individuals who are looking to build generational wealth. Make More Capital is his financial education brand that seeks to empower ambitious people on how they can cut out expensive fees and keep more of their profit.
Listen to The Dime Podcast to hear Jordan discuss:
- Money Management
- What Cannabis company first caught his eye
- Background into the History of Cannabis
- Removing the Stigma of Cannabis
- Impacts of Global Cannabis being legalized
After listening to today’s episode, you can learn more about Jordan’s work by visiting https://makemorecapital.com/ and following him on Twitter @makemorecapital
Let @bryanfields24 and @kellan_finney know what you think of today’s episode on social media!
Become a supporter of The Dime Podcast: https://anchor.fm/thedime/support
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents. What’s up guys. And welcome back to another episode of the dime as always. I’ve got my right hand, man, Alan Finney here with me. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Jordan Haile investor and educator.
Jordan, how you doing? Welcome to the show.
[00:00:23]Jordan Highley: I’m doing well today, guys. Thanks for having me on happy to talk about cannabis and the big generational opportunity. No one seems to be. Yeah.
[00:00:30]Bryan Fields: Yeah. And some people may aware of, and we’re excited to kind of get the others that are not aware of it. A little more excited.
Kellen. How you doing today
[00:00:38]Kellan Finney: will doing well. Doing well. Brian, how about yourself? Doing
[00:00:40]Bryan Fields: good. Thanks. So I think before we start Jordan, I think it’d be great for our listeners to get a little background about you and kind of what got you interested into cannabis.
[00:00:49]Jordan Highley: Okay. So I’ll try to keep that short. I I studied at university with the idea of becoming a teacher.
So sort of communicating and teaching has always been something that I’d like to like to do and wanting to do what got me back [00:01:00] interested in cannabis though. I would just want to say that, you know, as a, as a teenager in a culture where, you know, you start drinking early in high school, And then there’s cannabis and you’re told growing up that cannabis is what’s going to kill all your brain cells.
And then just by personal experience, like, well, that doesn’t seem to be the case when I try one, you know, versus the other. And so for me, what, what just became very interesting about cannabis was, you know, returning to Canada in 2017. So I’ll touch a bit on that in a moment, but returning to Canada and seeing that it was going to be a reality that in Canada, we were legalized.
And that was a process that was being done. Now, just to backs up a bit, I said, I studied to be a teacher. I could’ve gone to teacher’s college in Canada for two more years. So it’s like I could have paid for more training to become a teacher. Or I knew that there’s the opportunity to go teach English in Asia.
And that just caught me. I was like, I thought about it a lot. And I was like, that just sounds like a better play to go get paid, to teach, to learn and actually do it and then get to travel and all that. So I took a different path and that sort of problem. Kept me on a different path than most people now.
So yeah, I went to teach in Asia and then I just want to say that I think this is really cool. So just that, like didn’t realize it at the time, but I had just a [00:02:00] good saving habit. I decided to save half my paycheck every month and then live off the rest. So after the two years in Korea, I had $30,000 saved and didn’t think leave it as a skill at the time.
Even like my ex-girlfriend was like, you’re just so cheap. I was like, no, this is a good habit. Hopefully I’ll be wealthy someday. But then, so just the whole idea with that is that for the year teaching abroad, I had saved up so much. And, but the first thing I did was I invested in. In Canada through a financial advisor in mutual funds, like the classic way.
So we’ll get back to that later, but that’s just something I did initially. Then I went to travel for a whole year with 20 grand and that sort of just opened my eyes to the value of a dollar. And you know, how people everywhere kind of the same, want the same thing. Generally, as long as, you know, basic necessities are taken care of.
So that. Took me around the world. And then I came back to Canada and cannabis was going to be legalized. So I think that’s just a good bit of history on how I came to be self-taught investor and all that doing what I do now. Random
[00:02:49]Kellan Finney: tangent, I have to ask, where are you part of
[00:02:51]Jordan Highley: the TOEFL? No, not Toffel, but I did United TESOL.
[00:02:54]Kellan Finney: Okay. My sister was part of the TOEFL and she taught in Asia for five, six years. So I just figured I [00:03:00] might as well throw it out there. You never know,
[00:03:03]Jordan Highley: sort restorative similar in that they’re required to, to get into like Japan, China and Korea. More more restricted countries, I guess, for teaching and cause they’ll pay you a better salary and all that.
So they want you to have more trains, but it was just such a cool experience. And I honestly had some of the best times in my life. So it was looking back. I was just like, so grateful I did that. But then I just want to like take this point and then lead that into how I became an investor because so at the 10,000 K I invested in classic beauty funds through financial advisor because I just asked my dad, I was like, Hey, I need to, to build some wealth.
How do I do this? And so it was funny though, because a year after year and a half, after that initial investors. I’d come back from traveling and decided to come home and just start over sort of thing. And I found out that I owed $1,400 in tax penalties because I invested when I was a non-resident. So I’d come home visited for a month, invested that 10 K then went backpacking.
If you’re not living in Canada, you can’t use a TFA, which would be like your Roth IRA because you’re not living there paying tax. So I found that out and I was like, [00:04:00] you know, I was someone that thought investing was too risky, so I wouldn’t do it. But I was like, if this financial advisor can do this and not know the rules, this is ridiculous.
Like I must be able to learn how to invest. And then I found out the difference between a real financial advisor and a mutual fund sales representative. Then I found out about the fees. Then I went down the rabbit hole of what is money and then started managing my money myself. But so it’s just funny how, like that’s, that sort of thing was done there.
And it brought me back into here. So it was like, kind of cool how it worked out.
[00:04:25]Bryan Fields: I applaud you for kind of going down that hole and figuring out and not being deterred from the club failure, the bad experience, because a lot of people might be a little more hesitant to kind of continue on that same path, but it seems like you kind of went the other route and kind of doubled down and said, you know what?
I can figure this out myself. This is not going to be an opportunity for me to shy away. I’m going to kind of dive in and get my hands dirty and figure it out. So I guess my followup question. What was the first cannabis company that caught your eye when you started kind of figuring out like there might be something here as an opportunity?
[00:04:56]Jordan Highley: Yeah. So good timing. So I think this whole kerfuffle with that financial advisor [00:05:00] happened around September of 2017 and then it was November, 2017 that I got around to opening my first self-directed investigator. And that was a roar actually. So my first try investing was with the roar cannabis back in 2017, before everything had gotten a little bit out of control valuation wise, and it just, it opened my eyes within two weeks.
I had doubled my money with equity and I was like, holy crap. Investing works. So it was Aurora. I was in, I think I bought it 2 57. I sold out two weeks later or a week later at $5 and something just cause I didn’t know what I was doing, but I was like, this can’t go on forever. But that was the first. Yeah,
[00:05:30]Bryan Fields: it’s funny.
We can talk about this offline. I was in on that same, right around that same time. And my eyes were like, we shit. It was wow. Wow. Then, and I think there’s opportunity to kind of bring that back to us. And before we kind of dive into like the fun stuff and the investing standpoint, it’s going to take a different approach and talk about kind of like the history of cannabis.
I think sometimes it’s not really spoken about, about how we got to the point we are. So let’s kind of take it back from the beginning and start with like the story you were sharing before we
[00:05:58]Jordan Highley: started here. Good point. Yeah. [00:06:00] So I’m well, on my channel too, there’s a, I did a series last year called reality check cannabis in 2020.
And I did an eight episode series. I forget exactly. But at that time I was like, okay, this is like, I had the thought last year that the Senate and the devil. Biden could win. The Senate could actually flip just because things had gone so far, one way, it almost just feels like it has to go back the other way.
I had learned a lot about the history of cannabis myself there too. And it was just how, like, you know, first discoveries or first findings of it goes back 10,000 years to China being used as an original sort of textile for cloth material rope and then medicine. And there’s actually an excerpt that I have from that series.
So it’s a bit of a rap, like I rap on the series, so I’m just. Go through it for you guys here, but just, just goes to show. An entertaining way to sort of learn that the medicine, but then what I’ll get to is like the factors that helped it become illegal. That’s something that I learned. And I just want to mention, because you can look at it and just realize that it’s like, it’s just people that have it power that made decisions and it can be changed, but it’s just crazy that it hasn’t since then, but learning about like how cannabis has an [00:07:00] actual medicine over the years, Was just that, that was really eye opening.
And then even just my personal experience with it, seeing the data coming out now more and more it just made me want to look and it reaffirmed everything, but just this is it. So here’s where it gets crazy. It’s the OGN aesthetic. If you’re still numb to the pain caused over the years, it’s pathetic this man mixed cannabis with wine to get invasive in the skin, it worked, he realized it helps you heal from within discoveries of this magnitude were far and few in between Arabic scholars figured out its effectiveness for epilepsy at the same time.
Found it to be effective treatment for gout, oedema, headaches, this got published and repeated. And so then this is like 6,000 years ago to 4,000 years ago. Centuries later used by Arab traders for asthma, malaria, and fever from India and east Africa. The commodity was a keeper traveling alongside the Spanish, brought to the Americas.
He was practically foreclosing rope before the mass hysteria. Napoleon brought him back from Egypt to investigate the crop it’s pain-relieving sedative qualities, help with tumors and cough. Since the 18 hundreds cannabis rose to pharmaceutical success. Irish stock O’Shaughnessy deemed it had no negative medical effects.
And so this was in the 1850s, it was introduced in the U S Pharmacopia in 1842, actually as well, because it was becoming [00:08:00] popular in the U S by 19 hundreds, more than a hundred papers published in therapeutic uses for nausea, rheumatism, and pain. And over the counter solution, cannabis was never seen as criminal and idea totally absurd until it became associated with one little four-letter.
Drug, but so it just goes to show how, like that’s what anyone, you know, hundreds of years ago, 200 years ago would think of the plant. And it’s funny how we’ve been grown up to think of it as the complete opposite. And that’s sort of the anomaly, I think that’s really well said.
[00:08:24]Bryan Fields: Right? And it goes into like the stigma aspect of it.
And if you ask a large group of people, depending on where you are in the world, we can, we get mixed responses. Right? You have some people. It’s a gateway drug. We got one of our favorites, the devil’s lettuce. Right. And you got my personal favorite, the governor of Nebraska. If you legalize cannabis, he will kill your kids, which I will still put up on there on the, my favorite quotes of all time, because it is just so ridiculous
[00:08:49]Jordan Highley: at the same time.
It’s wild
[00:08:53]Bryan Fields: and it’s in this year, right? Like we’re not even talking about something that happened 10 years ago, 15 years. Correct. So like for someone like [00:09:00] him, who’s hopefully knowledgeable about what’s actually happening to make a statement like that. That’s so backwards is eyeopening. So I guess starting from the stigma standpoint, based on what you said, Jordan, how do we go forward and start educating people on the benefits of cannabis and start with removing the stigma?
Because I feel like we can talk about the benefits, but people aren’t going to get past that issue they have with thinking and knowing for so long, that cannabis
[00:09:25]Jordan Highley: is just. bad That’s a great question. And I don’t think it’s, there’s no simple answer. I do think it’s really a matter of individuals sort of choosing maybe, you know, their own lived experience over the the message the common messaging in society.
I also think too, it’s like, I don’t know about you, but I go through a lot of the studies and I see what comes out and. Despite Saying that Hey, THC or CBD seems to be very effective. All of these studies also say, but there needs to be a lot more looks into it. It’s just like, no, no. At this point we know THC seems to be the miracle pain reliever and we know CBD is good for inflammation and other things.
And like, I don’t know, it’s when our [00:10:00] established institution starts actually like take that seriously. And I think that will probably come from descheduling it because people need the, you know, the government to do at first and all that. But like, it’s just, it’s going to take decades, not decades, but like, Generations it’s going to take generations, but then I think the good thing is, is that at least, I don’t know how old you guys are.
Like, we’re pretty far into our life where I think any generation below us is going to be aware of what the, you know, more truths about the planet versus people that are older than us. But I think, yeah, probably descheduling just because people, they want it to come from the government or from leadership institutions for it to be true sort of thing.
Right. Can
[00:10:34]Bryan Fields: shed some light on that. I know we’ve been to some conferences a while back where there were representatives and of course we can’t mention specifics or any of those kinds of conversations, but it seems like the government’s been interested in kind of learning more about this and how to regulate this.
Can you kind of shed some light on that?
[00:10:48]Kellan Finney: Yeah, I mean, it was even five years ago. I was at a conference on California that was strictly a science-based conference associated with cannabis. Right. And the conference was the Emerald conference. And so [00:11:00] really, really heavy science, a bunch of really smart scientists, presenting very intense, scientific research that they’d been doing on the planet.
And there was groups from certain branches of the federal government that were there as focus groups internally that had been assigned. And at the end of the day, I think we were talking with some, some individuals the other day, too, that it’s kind of like a, an old Western standoff, right? Like the DEA, the FDA and other governing bodies that typically.
Regulate these kinds of substances, at least in the us are all standing there and little standoff. And unfortunately though they are not the ones that are going to be able to decide what happens. It’s going to, at least in the U S it’s going to have to come from the Senate and the house, right? Like we’re going to have to pass a bill through our legislative branch to be able to change the opinion of the masses.
You can reference surveys that say over 60% of the us population would approve of recreational cannabis right now. But unfortunately the representatives that [00:12:00] are speaking for part of those, the individuals that are in favor of cannabis legalization don’t share those same opinions. Right. Because if they did, it would already be legalized.
Right. And so there’s a huge standoff between the left and the right side of our governments, if you will, in those houses. Right. And until they. Come up with some legislation that. It can be agreed upon by both sides on the aisle and actually pushed through whether it’s the scheduling or rescheduling or decriminalization.
Right. One of those two things, nothing is going to change from a mass cultural stigma. Nothing’s going to change until that happens. Right. And, and then when that happens, you’re going to see all of these other governing bodies, like NIST, like FDA, like the DEA, they’re going to change all of how they behave and then that’s going to help accelerate.
And potentially be the huge catalyst that really, really drives the old way of thinking if you will, for the last 60 years out. Our society. Right. And I’d like to believe [00:13:00] that if the us does that, that it’s going to be a cascading effect across the globe. Right. Then Europe’s going to be like, okay, maybe it’s a good idea.
And you’re going to see all of these other countries across the entire globe kind of follow suit, hopefully. Right.
[00:13:12]Jordan Highley: That’s the idea. Germany has got an upcoming election on September 26 and apparently four out of the six parties. There are running on legalizing adult use cannabis because that’s become a really big issue there.
So that we’re seeing that first and foremost. So I’m glad that you touched on that. And I think it’s big dimension that the us is obviously the global leader. So with us, does everyone else will follow and just to touch on the history 1961, I think it was a UN convention or there was some sort of thing, but this is.
Harry Anslinger who was in charge of making cannabis illegal back. Then he basically bullied the rest of the world into following the U S drug policy and said that if you don’t do it, we’re going to veto anything you try to get done. So don’t even try. And so it’s like when you think the laws are still in place, based on that sort of mentality and that sort of negotiation, we just have to unlock that, that next step to, to see what can happen.
But I do think once the us does it, it’s going to be a domino effect and be faster. It’ll speed up the process, but let’s kind of
[00:13:56]Bryan Fields: tie that in too, from an investment stand. [00:14:00] The roadmap that Kellen presented to us, obviously he’s going to take some time to, and I’m sure you get flooded with this question, right?
You keep talking about fundamentals. The numbers are great. My stock price is down. Yeah.
[00:14:12]Jordan Highley: Why? Because. I want to quote Ben Graham in the short term, the market is a voting machine, but in the longterm, the market is a weighing machine. So yes, it seems weird that the fundamentals are so good and the share prices are down, but those don’t always correlate.
And that’s where opportunity is actually found in the market. But I think the other thing to remind people, and this is where most people aren’t going to understand it and they might miss the boat. Is that the media, I think, is always going to push that federal legalization needs to happen for these companies to be success.
And if you’re following that narrative, then you’re going to think that the big opportunity would be to buy the compromised bill maybe next year of getting passed. But I think if anyone’s been a bit more focused and paying attention to themselves, it is a state led story. Right. And state’s rights do supersede on before yeah.
Come before federal rights. So fundamentally I think that’s a very important thing to understand. [00:15:00] And like you said, if you’re living in a state where it’s not legal, you don’t know that it’s a different world versus states that are so that’s ultimately why though, just because they don’t correlate, but that’s where opportunities found.
So I think if you’ve done the research and you’ve read enough on it, like, I think you probably see what we’re seeing as an investor. Yeah. And like, I think
[00:15:16]Bryan Fields: you started really well about that’s where the opportunity lies, because I think sometimes people are so short-sided and looking for that instant gratification of, I bought this stock six weeks ago.
And since then, Even, and then down, I’m going to move into something more aggressive crypto, one of these names.
[00:15:32]Jordan Highley: I just want to use this to tie that to the example with your buddy, your buddy also is at stocks. It’s like, Hey, don’t forget, you’re investing in a real company, not just a stock. Right? So it’s, it’s so easy to over-complicate it, but like unconvinced yourself by doing that, you know, like an AB even kind
[00:15:45]Bryan Fields: of continue you on that roadmap where you kind of take a step back right.
From an investment standpoint and then take a step forward and think to yourself. Okay. I invested in February stock prices traded down. But New York. New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Maryland, [00:16:00] Pennsylvania, all the east coast is
[00:16:02]Jordan Highley: coming online, New Mexico, Virginia.
[00:16:04]Bryan Fields: Right. And we’re just like, this is just in the foreseeable future.
We’re talking about like a small
[00:16:10]Jordan Highley: cluster of states are coming online and New Jersey is going to be online November, according to Boris, I believe so.
[00:16:15]Bryan Fields: Hopefully New York will get their
[00:16:16]Jordan Highley: stuff together, but it’s good. That coma is gone. Cause that might speed up the process. Everything forward. Let’s just move forward.
[00:16:24]Bryan Fields: The question I always post to my friends when they asked me that it’s like, who do you think is going to get that piece of the puzzle, right? That, that piece of the pie, when it gets split up, it’s the companies operating in those states and look at some of these numbers that they’re projecting from a market size standpoint.
I mean, these are massive, massive markets that are currently underway. And then all of a sudden, they’re just going to hand out 20%, 30%, 15%, 8%. And those are just massive movements to these fish that are just massive already. And I think that’s the part that’s so wild to me is that like, if you take a more [00:17:00] forward approach and we’re a higher level approach and think about the future of what the space is, We’re still on the first
[00:17:06]Jordan Highley: day.
Of course. And I don’t, I don’t necessarily know you a whole lot of future growth valuations. Like I imagine a lot of technical investors do with Tesla or Amazon, but I don’t see why you would not put a cannabis company in that exact same category or even more potential growth because a hundred percent growth year over year, pretty evident for all of them still, you know, in like the third or fourth year of operation.
And then, like you said, they’re just getting better. I completely agree. We might be in the second inning or we might’ve just gotten there, but it’s still so early. But I think too people often look back right. And instead of looking forward and that’s their biggest.
[00:17:36]Bryan Fields: Yeah. And it’s, it’s just so wild too, because like these companies released these blowout earnings and people’s first responses.
Well, the stock
[00:17:42]Jordan Highley: price went down. Yeah, exactly. Now I’ve got a question for you guys actually, just to flip it. Are you guys getting a lot of good questions that poke holes in the thesis? Because that’s one thing I’m always trying to get people to poke holes and try and find gaps in the story. But the only gap anyone can say.
But the share prices are down, which is good because that doesn’t poke any holes.
[00:17:59]Kellan Finney: Right. I’ve had [00:18:00] one kind of conversation that’s been reoccurring in terms of investing
[00:18:04]Bryan Fields: instead of trading
[00:18:05]Kellan Finney: cannabis stocks. Right. Right. And the one kind of pushback I get from a lot of individuals that are more sophisticated than me is parking their money.
Cannabis stock right now. Cause there’s only one. I think that technically pays dividends. Right. And so that the whole dividend aspect of it and the security from a longterm perspective, that’s a big pushback I get in terms of, oh, it’s not, do I invest in cannabis or do I not? It’s do I invest in cannabis or do I invest in another sector?
Right. And with the entire market showing so much growth, at least in the U S. A lot of individuals have pulled their money out of cannabis because they’re trading cannabis stocks. So you see this huge volatility. They’re not investing in cannabis companies because there’s no incentive. They say, okay, yeah, that’s a potential growth story.
Like Amazon, or like Google or alphabet, excuse me. Right. But there’s no. Passive income for [00:19:00] individuals to just park their money there for 10 years while they live off of the dividends or something like that. So that’s one pushback I’ve been given as far as like being true investing in the
[00:19:09]Jordan Highley: cannabis sector.
That seems more of just personal methodology versus actual what we’re seeing unfold though. So that’s helpful, but that makes total sense. But at the same time, like I just gotta ask you guys to like re are you guys cannabis, connoisseurs, or is it almost more of a. You want to write the past wrong and you want this to get done and not to say that, like, you’re letting your emotions get in the way, but like, it just doesn’t seem like anything can stop this as
[00:19:32]Bryan Fields: that’s one of my biggest fears is that like, I feel like sometimes my circle gets kind of like a lot of confirmation bias and that kind of gives me some hesitancy seeing part, like I’m thinking about it and it’s like, I am emotional.
Tied to this, which is probably the first reason you gotta like tell yourself this is not a good thing. But then I think about it and look at the fundamentals and thinking about forward approach. And then I tell myself, I’m like, all right, like whatever, emotional fears that I have, make sure that it’s a sizeable portion so that it’s diversified [00:20:00] against my overall approach and obviously different risk profiles for different people.
And everyone should consult and advise. But the, the pushback that I get often is it’s the Canadian reference. Well, or on Canada, B, they were doing great. And now they got murdered. Why is the U S going to be any different?
[00:20:16]Jordan Highley: Oh, that’s I love that too, because that is like, and it’s true though, because in investing the quote, this time that’s different is, is obviously you don’t want to say that too loosely or not, but if you actually were to look at like the U S companies ran two prices higher than they’re trading at right now in 2018.
So that’s something crazy to think about. This time, it really is different fundamentally. And you know, in that aspect, obviously saying that it’s just, it’s funny and that’s the irony of it, but the U S situation is very different. And that’s why I think with what we saw on Canon 2018, once safe passes that allows trillions of assets under management, potentially billions, but, you know, to flood in it if possible.
And I think just as much as I’ve tried to find holes too, and been like, okay, like what could possibly go wrong? Obviously you just want to make sure that you have enough cash [00:21:00] right. To last, so that you don’t have to dip in. But I think Todd has a great point. Todd Harrison, when he mentioned. New York and New Jersey need functional banking.
Right. And like, that’s the one thing that is like, that’s, that’s so true. And I don’t think you can really argue that. And so that’s one thing that at least that’s the best case. That’s like, I, I still think safe is a matter of when, not if right. But it’s just, that’s got to come for that to come alive. So
[00:21:23]Bryan Fields: we’ll continue on that thesis though.
Like when someone asked or why is it different this time? You know, why is it different than Canada? Why is the U S different? What would you say.
[00:21:33]Jordan Highley: Well, so it’s the amount of money that these companies are actually making on the ground. So in 2018, I recall canopy, I think was making maybe $20 million free.
I might’ve been making 25 or like in, in revenue revenue. So not even earnings. And when canopy was making 20 million in gurning or in revenue, sorry, they were valued at $20 billion making 20 million. And then rate like canopy on August six, they just posted their numbers 134 million or [00:22:00] 136 million in revenue.
And they posted a positive net income just because of some of their biological assets. I’m sure. And then lost cashflow loss of this. And then you look at Cara leaf valued at 8 billion posting 320 million in a single quarter. It’s just like it is night and day. It’s just because since three years have passed two groups of companies, Canadian LPs.
And S MSO has have been operating. Canadian LP has been growing a ton of cannabis for a market that they can’t sell that cannabis to, and therefore losing money versus like you’ve explained today, the new markets opening up as these more efficiently run USMS MSO are actually not burning the money that they’ve been given working with what they have and, you know, not pulling, not biting off more than they can chew.
And we’re just seeing the fruits of that. And so you do have to take that you do have to take that step back and see that, that big overall view. But I think if you can identify that then the writing’s on the wall.
[00:22:50]Kellan Finney: I think it’s also important to mention that I’ve heard that clearly. Inventory problems in the U S in terms of not being able to grow enough cannabis to supply some of their markets in [00:23:00] different states.
So it’s a, it’s a complete opposite
[00:23:02]Jordan Highley: problem. Exactly. And then you just have
like, California has more people than Canada. That it’s a thing. People just. You know, if our just country in the world by GDP,
[00:23:14]Bryan Fields: like people don’t grasp that, right? Like they don’t grasp that concept. And they, and another concept I don’t think is understood enough is this whole vertical integration scheme.
And this interstate is inability to kind of operate like economies of scale. And I think we’ve talked about this, a bunch on this podcast that like, this is just another hurdle that the cannabis operators have to fight through that are going to have to change their business line. And when they do. Get these kinds of chains released and they’re able to kind of double down on what they do best.
Then you can really see core competencies and unique selling points kind of start to shine through, and then you can see the real growth happen, right? Like right now they’re making handover like just out way, just not of my, like Helen was saying with purely, they don’t have enough product to keep on the shelf.
Like that’s just an insane concept. And then here we are in east coast, we don’t [00:24:00] even have Spencer’s open. We don’t know when from New York standpoint, hopefully soon, like you said, this is the part where it’s really attractive. And my guess, coming back to you. When was the last time or in history, what other sort of opportunities do you see that you can kind of associate with something like
[00:24:16]Jordan Highley: cannabis?
Yeah, I think it’s a good point. You mentioned that. I think most people don’t comprehend the scale because it’s really difficult and you have to almost practice every day to try and get that under wraps. But I do compare this to like tech in the late nineties and obviously I wasn’t alive. Versed in ed investing that or would not.
But I remember saying as a teenager, like when I’m an adult, like I’m, I would not have missed out on investing in apple or Amazon, even though I don’t, I didn’t know anything about investing for some reason. I remembered saying that to myself and I’m glad I said, that’d be an to remember that because it almost stuck in like, just when I get older, if there’s a big opportunity, like.
this Then I want to make sure that I’m in and I’m not going to miss out because it’s just like, you know, being concentrated in an opportunity, this potentially big, just based on all the fundamentals. You know, that’s where I would say someone who doesn’t see [00:25:00] this as a good place to park your money time in the market’s better than timing the market for such a big sort of opportunity.
But yeah, I’ve compared to tech because we’ll prohibition. Like my thought too is when I, when I you’ve probably heard me say this on the channel, prohibition only ends once in a lifetime usually. And like, how lucky is that? But then the U S. 50 individual prohibitions 18 of which have sort of been, you know, reformed only 12 or so are online.
We haven’t even seen the other six from online and then you’ve got another 32 states. So how are we not going to be able to play this entire, you know, the cycles of this industry for the next decade? I don’t see how that’s not an option. The
[00:25:33]Kellan Finney: opportunity there too, is that from a retail investor, you have an opportunity that’s never, ever been presented.
Yeah, as opposed to any other industry, because right now I think it’s like 4% of institutions actually are invested in the industry and with this kind of growth potential to be able to participate in something that the big banks can’t back right there as a generational wealth opportunity in and of itself.
You know what I mean? Cause they’re going to, they want to, they’re going to want in based on just the fundamentals
[00:25:59]Jordan Highley: of these companies. [00:26:00] Yeah. I can imagine. It’s it’s weird seeing all of that. You know, whether, whether banks are not allowing people to buy, but then, you know, so that’s typically why we might see more selling because if people can’t buy more of a get impatient, but yeah, I think so anyone that has enough wealth or money they’re going to be wanting to get in, in the next session.
And that’s why we’re seeing all this momentum and probably some positive results of the lobbying effort we’ve seen over the summer so far. And it’s just like, I just think it’s going to carry on through. Yeah, I
[00:26:28]Bryan Fields: think it’s going to surprise a lot of people. I think people have heard cannabis and there they know about the opportunity.
They might not be familiar with some of the bigger players, which they should check out your channel and this dollar podcast, if not sure, but I think it’s the same breath. I think when they see the real fundamentals and they see the. Total size of these companies. They’re going to be blown away by what they’ve been able to accomplish it.
And I wonder when we have that first outside industry acquisition kind of come into the space for just a ridiculous amount of money. I think that’s when you’ll see people go, oh, this is real. Like there’s some real companies in [00:27:00] here that are, are starting to really dominate the space. And I think that’s going to be the biggest push forward.
[00:27:07]Jordan Highley: I’d say, I’ll just, I’ll say in first and second, but just like, we don’t know, we don’t know. Right? So as, as a retail investor too, we don’t know how high us capital once they are allowed to get, and we don’t know how high they can take this. And I’m not to say that they’re, you know, these companies are going to be worth a hundred billion or anything like that.
But if you look at it in 2018 and these companies were making 20 million in revenue and they got up to 20 billion worth of valuation, there’s no reason to believe that when given the opportunity, these companies wouldn’t. You know, shoot up to most, probably more because they’re in the U S and because the numbers are so much better, it’s just, you know, it, because it hasn’t happened.
We can’t imagine it, but I, I just, I do think, like you say, it’s going to surprise people because it’s going to be quick. Like it has in the past. Right. When it happens, it happens fast and you don’t want to be chasing, you want to be in, so yeah, that’s sorta. So
[00:27:54]Bryan Fields: I, I guess one of the negative standpoints that I think can get brought up and I think we should do a better job of addressing some of those, [00:28:00] because I think sometimes people we do kind of like pro confirmation bias.
That’s kind of what the circle is. So one of the hesitancies that I think some people come to address and say, it’s like, well, talk about the vaping market and how like that has a negative effect. I think there’s going to be continued to have negative. PR. So tell him from your standpoint, obviously, cannabis there’s safety issues, because people are unsure of exactly what’s happening.
Plus people are consuming black market products to be proud of from guests. Is there any hesitancies from your standpoint that safety could be a reason or health concerns could be a reason that cannabis never makes it to the evaluation Jordan’s talking about. Yeah. I mean, I’ve had some
[00:28:37]Kellan Finney: conversations with some of my friends and there it is a really unique point in time that cannabis is at right now.
I mean, right now you can go purchase cannabis flower. That is clearly unadultered, it’s the flower. They haven’t added anything. And I compare it to, or I didn’t put my buddy, he compared it to the back of industry in the early 19 hundreds. Right. And so [00:29:00] if we get to a point where cannabis starts to be adulterated, and we saw that in the vape industry with the vape crisis in early 2019, and, and granted it wasn’t legal companies, it was the illicit market, cutting it as they do with other illegal narcotics in terms of stretching what they’ve purchased.
Right. But at the same time, if that occurs in other products use across the, the cannabis industry, It could quickly change the conversation to look at how bad these products are for you. It’s a giant health crisis because I mean, in the early 1930s, doctors were recommending cigarettes and there was no huge health consequences.
And it turns out when they started adding all these addictive chemicals and doing all of these. Immoral
[00:29:46]Bryan Fields: things
[00:29:47]Jordan Highley: on opioids are healthy for you too, though. Right?
[00:29:49]Kellan Finney: Totally. Right. So like that’s one area I see that could potentially be detrimental from a PR perspective. For the industry. Right. But I think that the way around [00:30:00] that is federal legalization and regulation.
Do you know what I mean? Like legalize it and then we can regulate it. We won’t have to deal with these issues. You know,
[00:30:08]Jordan Highley: that’s the crazy thing it’s like, there is no black market issue of, you know, stuff coming from China or wherever stuff being created without knowing the safety of it. If you just create a legalized, right.
Besides that, that’s what baffles my mind, at least to counter with your friends. It sucks. And it, from a PR standpoint, and what’s sad is that PR is going to be what’s pumped out. But I mean, the good thing is, is there’s also studies like the 1894 British Raj commission, the lindane commission, the LaGuardia commission, the Shafer commission, all these studies over the years, gone to Jamaica.
Basically the us government paid top tier academics to study cannabis and all of them could not find any negative harm to the human. Besides, obviously putting smoke in your lungs is not good. So that’s moderation. Anyone should practice any smoking moderation if you’re going to. But like the whole idea is that like we’ve checked and there’s no negative effects.
So the only thing left is to deschedule it so that we can actually see what the positive effects are. But like you said, it’s PR is [00:31:00] different from reality. So GHD
[00:31:02]Kellan Finney: has this, like they’ve done huge toxicology reports on GHC because it’s a pharmaceutical, right? Like you can go get prescribed at THC. Right.
So like they’ve done toxicology analysis on it and it’s clearly very safe to subscribe as a
[00:31:15]Jordan Highley: pharmaceutical, really, because I wasn’t even aware of that, but yeah, no, like
[00:31:19]Kellan Finney: Delta, so Delta, H and Delta at nine have toxicology studies done on them. We were actually talking to a pharmaceutical chemist who was mentioning these things and like, he’s like, they’re completely safe to consume because they had to do those for the pharmacy.
Versions of them that are prescribed for cancer patients
[00:31:32]Jordan Highley: at this point. Gotcha. Is that dropping off Jonah ball or dropping off
[00:31:36]Kellan Finney: phenomenal. And then Syntech, I think is the other one, right? Is that what it was Brian syntax or
[00:31:41]Jordan Highley: something? I’m not sure.
Yeah, but they’re safe. And so it’s like the whole, like THC is as legitimate of a medicine on this earth as we can possibly.
[00:31:54]Bryan Fields: But it’s been stigmatized for so long. And I think some people have these issues with kind of getting past [00:32:00] and we challenged them and say like, Hey, I know you felt this way for 63 years.
But I’m sorry. You’re wrong. Police report says it and they didn’t make it. Who are you dude? And how long have you been in this
[00:32:11]Jordan Highley: space to go back and it can do the history bit with dancing or stuff. I forgot to mention that. So it’s just, it’s very interesting because I read a few books. Like obviously the emperor wears no clothes by Jack hair.
That was one that there were three or four that I read last year that sort of inspired that series. Yeah, looking at it. There’s obviously just players back then that were in positions of power and, you know, had the ability to make decisions that put the laws in place that they are now. And like, it’s just the crazy part is, is that they’re still in law in place today.
Right. And we haven’t changed them, but so let’s say let’s go back to 1980. There’s a lot of immigration coming from Mexico. And one way to sort of instill fear or at least make it seem as if there’s no reason to be afraid of this immigration. So William Randolph Hearst was a man. So he’s one of the three players.
I’ll name them out of Harry Anslinger, [00:33:00] who was head of the fear, federal bureau of narcotics. Then we have William Randolph Hearst who was think of like gay. A media empire magnet back then, and he created the yellow. I forget the word for it, but yellow sort of eye-popping sensationalists newspaper articles as opposed to real reporting.
And then Andrew Mellon, Andrew Mellon, who was the secretary? Secretary treasury of the U S back then he also happened to be the banker for DuPont chemicals. So, and I’ve looked at the history, I don’t know about you guys, and it’s not like I want to be politically correct, but I only use the term cannabis for cannabis and hemp for him.
So William Randolph Hearst with his media empire of newspapers, it was like, well, if we call it marijuana, it’s going to sound Mexican. And that way we can tie it to evil behavior and use it against the immigration problems. So that’s one way to get this message out into the room. And completely misinformed them.
And then around that same time, prohibition of alcohol ended and there was a former division for that federal bureau of prohibition. I forget something like that, but then that ended. And then [00:34:00] Harry J Anslinger was the head of that. A government bureau. And then when that ended, he ended up being recruited to become head of the federal bureau of narcotics.
So it’s almost like, well, since everyone wants alcohol, we need to find a new enemy in a way. And it also happened that his brother-in-law was Andrew Mellon, who happened to be one of the wealth, wealth, magnets from the east coast, like a hundred years ago, if you know, Carnegie Mellon, university Mellon, Mel LLO.
And it’s just very common. But so he was the treasury secretary and his brother-in-law was Henry, Henry J Anslinger. So convenient though, right. That he could just put his brother in there. Married to his wife in a position. But then at the same time, this treasury secretary who could do that, he also happened to be the bank of DuPont and DuPont in 1934 was creating a synthetic fiber called nylon.
And if you look at him, hemp is the most strongest natural fiber in the world. So if you can make the hemp plant illegal, or if you can create a tax so that people aren’t going to grow it, then DuPont is going to make a heck of a lot of money selling synthetic fiber nylon. So, you know, that just, it also just happened to line in sync.
And then it was, it happened to be though in 1937 [00:35:00] Where Harry J Anslinger ends up pushing towards like the American medical association that marijuana is evil or marijuana is bad. We need to get rid of it. And that’s where the doctors they’re like what’s marijuana. Like we know cannabis because cannabis is the name of a plant.
And so just imagine over years of people in power, being able to use that power, they basically. Made cannabis a little, they made it they introduced the tax. So farmers couldn’t grow it. Otherwise you’d be taxed. And back then, you, you wouldn’t risk growing it to be taxed You know, everyone was making like five, $10 a day sort of thing back then.
But what’s crazy is too, is that world war II came around and the U S. needed to legalize hemp So they got all the hemp farmers to grow as much hemp as possible, so they can win the war for rope and like lubricants for airplane wheels and all that stuff. So like they brought it back and then after they won the war, they’re like, okay, we need to make it illegal again.
This is just so stupid, but that’s all out there in the history, if you want to look at it. And then last thing though, and I mentioned cannabis was introduced in the U S. In 1850 or 1842 or something like that? 1852 Harry dancing, or was the one that removed it [00:36:00] after world war two group mid world war II in 1942.
He who has no scientific basis or no scientific training whatsoever was able to remove something from the U S from a Copia as if. It’s just, that all happened. And then that led into the sixties where he forced the UN every other country disorder obliged by the, you can just imagine how that all happened because no one had the internet, no one had access to free information.
No one had the ability to object, but that was crazy that those are still in the Nixon and the 71, he was like, wow, we can make a lot of money. If we find an enemy to, to arrest and criminal. Creating the prison industrial complex. And yeah. So it’s
[00:36:35]Bryan Fields: one of those where I feel like we need like a Netflix documentary in order to do that for a lot of people would be like, wait a minute.
Like, is that really what happened? And they’re like, this is some emotion.
[00:36:44]Jordan Highley: I mean, you can go to my YouTube channel and check that out in episodes five, I cover five and six. The history of the plant and then history of the U S and I mean, it’s long, but it’s, it’s all there. And it’s just like shit eyeopening for you when you were kind of going through it.
It was, and who knows what their [00:37:00] intentions were back then. They probably knew that they could make money. And they’re not saying like, oh, well, Make this plant illegal, then no one else gets it. It’s just like, oh no, this will make it better. You know, nylon will sell more or something like that. The intent probably like they never intended for it to last this long.
And to go this big, I imagine, but you know, here we are today, it was eyeopening. It was crazy. And all I could try and do was try and present it in a way that people would want to watch it. So
[00:37:23]Bryan Fields: they’re probably like this got out of control.
[00:37:26]Jordan Highley: Yeah, it, it does. Like, we just think when no one does anything to object, right.
And just to think if individuals hadn’t started pushing and fighting for cannabis, legalization themselves and individual states, how much do you know we wouldn’t be where we are now? So it’s all about the individual on the ground willing to say, no, this is, this is crap. Cannabis has helped me. And, you know, I want to get that story out there.
So, so let’s
[00:37:49]Bryan Fields: go back to the individuals, right? I think a question that Kellen and I always get asked that we’d love for kind of your insight on, is from a fundamental standpoint, you’ve got all these different companies operating in the cannabis space [00:38:00] specifically here in the U S how do you Jordan make an informed decision and understand which one of these companies you would like to say?
This is how I separate the companies. This is what I would recommend.
[00:38:12]Jordan Highley: Good question. So I, I would say I’m a student of. Naturally starting with like the intelligent investor and a few of these. So for me, it was originally looking for under price value or a good margin of safety. So I typically like to look at the market cap of the overall company, because that’s really what matters.
It’s like when people talk about the share price being oh, truly is more expensive than Cresco. I should buy Cresco. It’s like, no, that’s not what it means though. Regardless. I like to look at market cap price to sales. You know, also for myself, like I just, I like to be looking at the numbers constantly.
And one of the reasons I do my show is because it keeps me in check. Obviously I get a bit of confirmation bias, but like, I, I do look for other stories that that would tell otherwise, but me doing that two times or three times a week, just make sure. Everything I’ve checked. You know, my plan is still in line, but I think if you were to look at any other industry, any [00:39:00] other industry that is allowed to trade on the New York stock exchange or the NASDAQ, and you look at their market cap versus their price to sales, especially if they’re in a growth industry and there’s still growth to come, you can find those companies trading at a price to sales.
20 X especially if it’s a high growth industry, at least, at least. And then when you look at the market cap to 2021 revenue estimates versus even 20, 22 revenue estimates, and we’re already in August, 2021, right? Like time is going by very quickly. When you see these price to sales are sitting at 3, 4, 5, that’s all I need to know.
Like there’s nothing else. It’s, it’s that. And then it’s seeing, you know, Illinois sales growing every single. And man it’s just that, that, that, that Colorado blueprint, seeing what Colorado has done from 2014 to now, it’s safe to say that just based on the fact that people have always consumed cannabis and it’s not like they’re creating a new market for a new product, they’re just creating illegal one.
It’s just, it’s a no brainer, but that’s really the one main metric I look at. Obviously you want to see what earnings and all that, but I’m not trained in finance. So [00:40:00] I like to just know that, you know, these few boxes are checked on the ground and that’s enough for me. I think,
[00:40:04]Bryan Fields: I think that’s really well said.
So let’s continue on that. What is the biggest misconception since you’ve kind of been headfirst into the cannabis
[00:40:12]Jordan Highley: space? That’s a good question. Well, I think a big one is that they need federal legalization. And I think I didn’t mention this earlier, but I’m glad that you asked this. If I can bring it back in 2018, when we saw the big bowl.
That’s when August 1st or second, few days into August constellation brands invest 5 billion into canopy. Right. And that’s that, that’s when it took off. And like at that point I’d invested about 12 grand into Fria. And I had made a plan. I told myself, Hey Jordan, when on October 17th, you’re going to sell all of your shoes.
And then October 17th rolls around and I didn’t know anything. I got greedy. I was like, no, this is going to keep going up, you know, classic mistake. But the whole idea for me was like, if, as long as I don’t sell, I will lose anything. And you know, it was a long process, but again, I’m glad I held out an average down and went up.
But that whole point saying is that like, I think people are going to think in the U S federal legalization is going to be that [00:41:00] big. That Canada had, but we know as investors that I think it’s safe, it’s allowing the capital to flow in. So I think the biggest misconception is just that as time goes on, I think federal legalization is going to take longer and longer.
And at the same time when 91% of America wants it legalized and work, technically living in a democracy, I think at some point you got to make the rules that line up with everything too. So like, I imagine they’re, they’re pushing for that. Regardless of how long that takes. I think the biggest misconception for investors is just keep educating yourself and just looking into why safe is that, that big catalyst and not federal legalization.
But I do feel that when safe would come, we might see the numbers go super, super high, like overvalued, come pull back down. And then, you know, whenever that data we got, like, it’s the same thing. It’s just, it’s a cycle. And I think the biggest misconception is that it’s a one and done thing too. Like you can probably play this second.
In the coming year sort of thing, because we have so many different separated markets coming online and stuff. So it’s just yeah. To
[00:41:55]Bryan Fields: see an article that summarized what other aspects [00:42:00] 90% of the United States agreed on because I don’t. There’s going to be many. I just don’t think there’s many things. I mean, you could probably find maybe one hand worth of items and maybe we should spend some time on the internet looking to see that, but I’d be
[00:42:12]Jordan Highley: curious to know how many there were, where they were.
Maybe you shouldn’t raise your kids to lie. That’s probably one thing 92% can agree on. I don’t know about this
[00:42:23]Bryan Fields: research study that says like, lying is like good for your kids. It keeps you feeling safe. Right. And something like that, like while you’re hurt or feeling so like yeah. All right, continuing on.
Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you can sum up your experience into a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would that be?
[00:42:42]Jordan Highley: Learn to trust yourself? Again, I think that’s a big thing. Like being able to become a clearer thinker and think critically, and then being able to trust yourself, because believe me for the two years that I had invested in a freer and then, you know, began averaging again.
That was me basically building the stomach to be an investor, [00:43:00] but testing everything that I had learned, reading the intelligent investor and all these different books and it wasn’t easy, but the moment that a freer went from, you know, $3 in March to $35 last February, it sort of made it all worth it.
And that gave me the confidence that like, wow, I did this once and it was right then. So like, just to say. In the culture, you go to school and all that, you’re going to learn a bunch of stuff. Right. And you might be learning, you might be taught a lot of what to think, not necessarily how to think. And so we need to say like investing in yourself, but trying to trust yourself.
I don’t know. The more we get older, the more we think that all the answers lie out there. Right. But if you can just find the data and do the digging yourself, I think it’s just very worthwhile. So just flex that muscle as much as you can, because when you’re right, it gives you that confidence and you can keep building that snowball.
[00:43:47]Bryan Fields: All right. It’s prediction. What is number one last and that either the us or the individuals operating in the U S can learn. From the Canadian [00:44:00] process of cannabis,
[00:44:01]Jordan Highley: don’t allow a big tobacco or big alcohol to get involved. My one thought is just like, obviously now we want to see this happen because cannabis should be legalized for, you know, personal choice and just the freedom of that.
But like every other industry that becomes corporatized, that’s my one worry down the line. So. That’s to say, I don’t keep doing what they’re doing. Like what we saw in Canada. It just, it can’t happen though, in the U S I just, I don’t think that’s possible. So I want to say that actually, maybe that’s the answer, but stick to your guns and trust your gut, because what they’ve been doing, it seems to work fine.
Right? So like also, you know, a lot of just like kill them with kindness. Cause I think that’s the best thing that they’ve done so far, but they’re doing it as bad. Like that’s how you got to do it. So
[00:44:39]Kellan Finney: once federal legalization occurs, it’s not just going to be like, you can go buy pot anywhere. Or you can go get cannabis anywhere you want.
And if you’re an operator, if federal legalization happens, it’s not. You’re the next day. You’re just going to sell out every single day. Moving forward that, I mean, it’s still you still going to have to build a solid company. These companies are still going to have to [00:45:00] figure out where to put their best people in what positions.
And they’re still going to have to run sound businesses. It’s just going to be a relief that once it does occur from a federal standpoint, but it’s not going to change everything overnight, having federal
[00:45:14]Jordan Highley: legalization occur. Well, I would add too though, like individuals let’s get these non-violent drug offenders out of jail.
That’s huge. Unbelievable. Because listening to what wasn’t your podcast, it was another one recently with the Dangelo brothers and just saying. That’s not the case where they just get released. Like it takes time and it should be the people that put them in jail. That should be the ones taking initiative to get them out.
That’s not the case in a way. So that should be the priority even like right now in every state that has legalized
[00:45:40]Bryan Fields: for me, I’m going to go with the fact that like, even in Canada, when they were operating in 2018, they industry’s still so early. There’s still so much to learn, to uncover, to understand in order to improve.
And I think. Patience is going to be such a crucial factor where I think there’s a misconception where it’s like, oh, you’re in cannabis. You must be doing really well. And I [00:46:00] think that’s kind of a misconception that people don’t realize is that the industry is hard. There’s all these additional challenges.
And it’s still so early that it’s not as established where there aren’t these normal practices, like in tech or oil and gas. If you’re out there and you’re wondering about being in the space, it’s still very early, but there’s still all these challenges. So I think you could learn from what Canada did, but I think the us is going to make a ton more of their mistakes.
And I think we’re still so early and we’ve got a ton more mistakes to continue there
[00:46:27]Jordan Highley: to me a hundred percent. And we’re still on the first ending. Like that’s,
[00:46:29]Bryan Fields: what’s great. Yeah. Cool. Jordan for our listeners that want to get in touch, they want to learn more and they want to see your videos. Where should they.
[00:46:37]Jordan Highley: They can check out my content on YouTube. So the channel is I’d make more, make more capital. I do three episodes a week right now. So Wednesday, Friday and Sunday, typically Sundays, the good one with this weekend cannabis news, but I just, there’s just so much news. And so I just try to pump out whatever I can.
And again, it helps me with the research, but other than that, if you’re on Tik TOK, I actually go by highly invested. So it’s a different handle on their Instagram, [00:47:00] make more capital. And I had a podcast too called highway. So people can check that out, but that was more of like my entrepreneurship journey and same idea.
You guys are doing, communicating with other like minded people to learn and just share that knowledge. So all those spaces we’ll link that
[00:47:12]Bryan Fields: all up in the show notes and laughed Abby, come back on. And when we we get some good announcements here and kind of dive into the fundamentals, so appreciate your time.
Thank you.
[00:47:19]Jordan Highley: Thank you guys for having me. It’s been a pleasure and yes, after safe, let’s do that. So then we can go over that, but then also prepare that like, there’s still going to be lots to come because there’s still so many states that haven’t even gotten started. So we can
[00:47:29]Bryan Fields: all be here celebrating with champagne as our stock prices, just go right down and cannabis.
