Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
What is Delta-10 THC?
The Dime has its first returning guest, Dr. Matt Moore, principal scientist at Benuvia Manufacturing to discuss Delta-10 THC. Before listening to today’s episode, check out our prior session with Dr. Moore where we discussed Delta-8 THC (link: https://anchor.fm/thedime/episodes/Delta-8-THC-Deep-Dive-featuring-Dr–Matt-Moore-epgkvn) or our intro to Delta-8 episode (link: https://anchor.fm/thedime/episodes/Delta-8-THC-emd2s8)
Featured in today’s episode:
· Delta-10 THC
· Tetrahydrocannabinol clinical research and analysis
· Lawmakers lack knowledge about cannabis
· What should be on the radar of people in the Cannabinoid space?
Become a supporter of The Dime Podcast: https://anchor.fm/thedime/support
Benuvia Manufacturing is a leading developer and manufacturer of high-purity, pharmaceutical cannabinoid ingredients and products.
[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents.
[00:00:11] What’s up guys. Welcome back to the episode of the dime as always. I’ve got my right hand, man. Tell him Finney here with me. And this week we have our first returning guest, the doctor himself, Dr. Matt Moore, Matt. Thanks for taking the time. How are you doing?
[00:00:27] Matt Moorerv: Doing great, glad to be here. My name’s Matthew, I work at a company called the Navia manufacturing working on we process development of cannabinoids and the agendas and taking them through their clinical trials.
[00:00:38] Bryan Fields: Cool. I’m we’re excited to dive into a new topic for those who listened to back in February, we teased out one of our most popular episodes, the Delta eight and today we are returning to discuss the newly popular.
[00:00:53] Is that, is that a fair way to start? Nope, 10.
[00:00:56] Matt Moorerv: Probably so Delta 10 has an interesting story and it [00:01:00] definitely is referenced as far back as 19 63, 64 in a Japanese convention on psychedelics. They don’t have a synthetic route that they describe or anything like that, but it’s been referenced there.
[00:01:10] There’s also references to it in 1982 with material. And there’s conflicting stories about whether or not it’s psychoactive let’s
[00:01:19] Bryan Fields: let’s before we dive into that, like, let’s, let’s give the listeners a little more, just like an understanding, right? Like from like a simple, simple standpoint,
[00:01:29] Matt Moorerv: D 10 Delta tin is one of many, many forms of tetrahydrocannabinol.
[00:01:36] Tetrahydrocannabinol is a very, I, I brought up its name so I can say it an entire. It is six, a AR 10 AR Delta nine, tetrahydrocannabinol, negative friends night. So any one of those that isn’t Trent tetrahydrocannabinol can be changed to make a different comment. So if I have. 6 8, 10 ASMR Delta nine tetrahydrocannabinol plus trans nine.[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] That’s actually a different species. And the plant in general, and this is the case for a lot of plants. They only make generally one isomer of a given natural product. And if you make it synthetically, then you end up most likely with a lot of natural or a lot of isomers that would. Delta chin is a constitutional isomer.
[00:02:18] If you are familiar with the structure of THC, there is a double bond and the secondary range and the location of that double bond is what determines if it is Delta, H Delta nine, Delta 10 Delta, three Delta for Delta seven. And then there’s a subset among each of those, because the confirmation of that ring and the confirmation of the methyl group associated with that ring and the connection to the aromatic ring, all determined the shape as the like whether it’s a flat molecule, whether it has a ball shape and the direction that that bullshit gives whether forward or out of the face of the molecule all affects how it binds to the cannabinoid.
[00:02:56] And so this is, this is where it gets very [00:03:00] confusing. Delta eight and Delta nine, there are only two isomers of each of those. There’s the plus and the negative version of each of those. And if you’re starting from CBD, you can actually get, receive MC Delta eight out, which is not ideal. So, if you get received much, it means that you have a 50, 50 mixture of isomers.
[00:03:18] And ultimately what that means is you only get 50% if only one of the isomers is at. And there are also other, I mean, there are horror stories about this as well. So there’s the story that they tell you in. Oh, Ken is about a drug called thalidomide and in the UK would use as a prenatal vitamin. And if you have one isomer, it’s really great prenatal vitamin.
[00:03:39] And as it turns out, if you have the other items. Which it was sold as it was seeming to make sure it creates horrible, horrible, horrible effects. And so specifically these women were taking receiving mixture of Linemite in order to, you know, help their pregnancy. But what they were doing was specifically poisoning.
[00:03:58] And that’s not a concern for [00:04:00] our da or our D nine, because the other instrument it’s not toxic, they all have the same toxicity profiles. That’s also one of the complaints you hear about da is no one knows the toxicity of it. And it’s like, well, da has had toxicity profiles run on it because it’s the primary impurity in DNI.
[00:04:15] And DNI is a pharmaceutical drug and you can’t get the TA load. To actually accommodate pharmaceutical guidelines. So in order to justify having some amount of data in there, you want to toxicity profile on that molecule and you say it’s the same or less toxic than this other molecule. And so therefore it’s inconsequential to that point.
[00:04:35] So DEA has been extensively studied for safety. That’s something that people like really gloss over decent. On the other hand, almost nothing about safety. The closest thing to a safety profile was in the 82 paper with the two them where he tests doves. So what they look for is they give these molecules to a set of birds.
[00:04:58] And they look to see if [00:05:00] the way that they behave changes and if they do, then they determine that it’s psycho act. And so they got mixed results with their D most likely because the easiest way to make is through a radical summarization. That also produces da and then all four isomers of detail.
[00:05:17] So I don’t know enough about the pharmacology to know which of the decent isomers is the psychoactive one. I know someone who is, that’s where I received my sample many years ago from a guy in a country who has much, much more lenient policies against things like that. And there’s at least one isomer of Delta.
[00:05:36] Tim is psychosis. However, there’s been several, I mean, and this is all anecdotal stuff, but people like posting to is not, not the gold standard of truth here that they didn’t have a psychoactive experience. So if someone smokes a lot of weed every single day, they probably won’t have a psychoactive experience.
[00:05:55] Even if they eat the strongest edible, right. They may get [00:06:00] really high and a little uncomfortable, but they’re probably not going to see visuals. They’re probably not going to. I feel like the world is falling out from underneath them.
[00:06:07] Bryan Fields: So we dealt with 10 just to kind of make sure that we clarify that point.
[00:06:11] If someone doesn’t consume THC all the time, they might hallucinate,
[00:06:18] Matt Moorerv: they might. But that’s assuming that you got the right iceberg D 10, which there are not many effective ways to determine that. And I can guarantee you, none of them are found in the places that are making the tender.
[00:06:31] Bryan Fields: Okay. So if I buy a product that’s D 10, just ballpark percentage chance that I’m going to, I think your words triple.
[00:06:40] Matt Moorerv: That I have no good read on. However, I would say the chances of you getting a product that says that it’s Delta gym actually being any one of those isomers of Delta 10 exclusively is almost nonexistent.
[00:06:54] Bryan Fields: So let’s, let’s take a couple steps back, demonstrate take me through this, right. For [00:07:00] someone who doesn’t really understand from a chemistry standpoint, DVD, THC da way, are we, can you kind of build that picture, like backup for it?
[00:07:09] Kellan Finney: From a chemistry standpoint. I mean, a lot of what Matthew was talking about, it was mainly organic chemistry. And so again, organic chemistry is a challenging subject in college. The one-on-one the long story short, he was talking about different molecule structures and how they, the structure changes how they interact with the human body.
[00:07:27] So in layman’s terms, it’s a different structure. If it has a different name and that different structure. Do you think about how organic molecules typically interact with the human body? Especially from a psychoactive perspective, typically binding with an enzyme. So you can think about it as a lock and key kind of situation.
[00:07:47] And so the molecules that have the right shape or the right key shape that fit into certain receptors in your body will cause that psychoactive behavior. And [00:08:00] when it comes to detox, There’s four different versions of in terms of how the molecule is shaped in three dimensions. Right? If you look at it on paper, it all looks the same in a 2d structure, but if you take it in the three, three dimensions, it folds and it moves in certain ways, which create.
[00:08:19] Enantiomers is that right? Right. Well, so there
[00:08:22] Matt Moorerv: are different answers and different Diastat.
[00:08:25] Kellan Finney: Yeah. I always mess up.
[00:08:29] Bryan Fields: I was like, ah, it’s been a quick minute. So
[00:08:32] Kellan Finney: we went over that and okay. But long story short, there are different shapes in three dimensions because they’re different shapes. They either fit in that lock of
[00:08:40] Bryan Fields: an enzyme or they don’t.
[00:08:42] Kellan Finney: And so that’s where we’re referring to the psychoactive characteristics of these different molecules is as it relates to. Is that, does that make a little more
[00:08:53] Bryan Fields: sense for you? Yeah, that that makes more sense. Right. And, but to continue on the [00:09:00] one-on-one path, right. Like, I feel like a lot of times we’ve had these conversations and some people kind of come up with and ask questions like, Hey, like, can you kind of expand more on that?
[00:09:07] Or like more on this means. So I guess to continue on that conversation felt a, was really popular here in New York. And I feel like in Texas also it’s Delta 10 popular now. And if. Is it because people haven’t moved towards it. They’re not aware of it. It’s too hard to make. Like what what’s that thought process?
[00:09:27] Matt Moorerv: So from my research that I’ve done in, like the more, this is, this is a space where art meets science let’s call it that that’s a friendly way to say it. And so the way that the first modern reported Deaton was found was with a crop of him that was near a wildfire. And the flame retardant that was used to Dows the area got drifted over onto the crop and that crop then sat in the sun with this chemical on it.
[00:09:59] And that chemical [00:10:00] happens to be a radical initiator whenever it’s exposed to heavy UV light. And so they had 10% of some unknown. It is a true investigatory study. So not, and had an analyze which are in the structure and found that that’s what it was. And then there’s some work. They were able to do some more specific, like explicitly controlled medical chemistry to improve their yields and have a more controlled system.
[00:10:22] People are making it because they can’t write, like I have the new THC you want it. Well, not necessarily. Right. Like, that’s a bold leap to make. I have a new THC. Okay. Well, what if this is one that just happens to cause seizures, right? Like, I mean, the difference between, you know, adrenaline and byproduct for it is, is a methyl group.
[00:10:44] And that single methyl group is the difference between you having a heart attack or having your blood pressure go so high that you start pumping blood vessels as to like, just because it’s like close to what I want, you know, close to what I want is a million miles away. As far as I’m thinking.
[00:10:59] Bryan Fields: Is that story [00:11:00] true though?
[00:11:00] That they put like a chemical on a plan? Like, is that how that really went down?
[00:11:04] Matt Moorerv: That is how they reported it. That’s like, that’s incredible.
[00:11:07] Kellan Finney: It’s pretty
[00:11:08] Bryan Fields: crazy to think that innovative science can happen like that. I mean, just by like chance where, I mean, maybe that’s how groundbreaking work. So then continue on that route.
[00:11:17] The simplest question. Can people make D time from CBD? Yes.
[00:11:21] Matt Moorerv: So that’s not as. Because you want to go from D nine to D 10 and you can make D nine from CVD. If you’re really clever and really good at stopping it, the same chemistry that transforms CBD the D nine transforms denied it to you. And in fact, it does it faster.
[00:11:41] And so the second that you make Denine, it’s more likely to make da than it is to do anything else. That same molecule would rather come back and make da, then go to the next CBD molecule and make another molecule in general. There are some catalysts that can be used that don’t behave. Stick around to hear more about that later [00:12:00]
[00:12:01] Bryan Fields: sponsoring this podcast, come up in that part out if that’s not the case, because I guess I wonder like from a science standpoint and maybe chemistry standpoint, obviously with CBD being like over saturating the market, obviously people need to look for an outlet and be aid was the route they took.
[00:12:21] But scientifically, I’m assuming just making an assumption here. The da was easier to make them depend. Oh yeah, yeah.
[00:12:27] Matt Moorerv: Yeah. So decent is an example of a molecule that you have to force into existence. It will never be your main product. It is not thermodynamic the third product. It’s not even phonetically the preferred product.
[00:12:40] So even if you do it as fast as you can, you’re still going to get a distribution of denied D and D 10 and X. As well as all the other items are already listed, because what you’re doing is creating a radical cascade and it can send that double bond and the TFC anywhere around that does that. Right.
[00:12:54] And so what that means is you always get a distribution of products and until someone develops. [00:13:00] Specific catalysts, which not to say that, that can’t be done. They’re chemists who spend their entire lives, developing catalysts like that. And there’s probably some radical initiator tennis that could be like, oh yeah.
[00:13:10] If I pull this mystery bile off my shelf and I put it in there at 10%, you’ll get only 10 hours. And I’m sure at some point that’ll be revealed to the world. But as of right now, the chemistry that exists. Is not something I would ever want to do if I was trying to make a profit.
[00:13:28] Bryan Fields: Right. And then obviously to make a profit, you need to have someone buying these products and consumer wise educational level of understanding all of these different cannabinoids is challenging.
[00:13:38] I mean, here we are having a conversation about it, trying to understand exactly how it works. So killing from an industry standpoint, how often do you hear Delta 10 spoken about,
[00:13:47] Kellan Finney: I didn’t care about it at all until. Two months ago when I was on like Kush dot-coms marketplace. And all of a sudden, now you see companies starting to sell DTS.[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] I don’t know if that was because in the last two months there was a, I want to say maybe a slight crackdown by the Colorado department of health on dump fate manufacturing, at least in Colorado. That’s not the case in other states, but I think Delta 10 could, could have potentially started hitting the marketplace because of some of the regulations associated with Delta eight and some of those items that are being spoken about.
[00:14:24] So they could have then just been like, alright, well, Delta tens, the next. Cannabinoid, that’s the easiest one to synthesize. And there’s a lot of these big companies that are in that pseudo startup kind of small cap range as far as the, the size of them. And they’re looking for as much revenue diversification as possible.
[00:14:46] And so they are giving resources to these R and D chemists to try to develop any, to take their massive stocks of CBD and turn them into. Usable molecules that actually sell. And it [00:15:00] turns out that THC currently is selling a lot better than CBD, just from a supply and demand perspective, especially in states that don’t have.
[00:15:08] Legal cannabis
[00:15:09] Bryan Fields: markets. So to kind of piggy back off that obviously Colorado may da legal, is it one of those where people just kind of shift them to deep pan and they’re like, well, BAC legal. We can just do D 10 and of the regulators, like, whoa, that’s just not how it works.
[00:15:28] Kellan Finney: exactly. They can’t write fast enough
[00:15:32] Matt Moorerv: predicated on the assumption that TA. Right. Which again is an assumption because the DEA has a schedule, one number for da and you have to request quota to make it. I know because we request it every single year. So the idea that it’s not scheduled by the DDS.
[00:15:55] It’s not true. I would be very hesitant to ship any da material [00:16:00] across
[00:16:00] Bryan Fields: state lines. It’d be so insane for these regulators. Right? Like they, they work super hard, especially for these legislations. They were like, Hey, like we finally got it done. Deeds done. Right. And then. You know, they get a text message and it’s like, well, the ten’s popping up and they’re like, what the hell is this?
[00:16:15] And like, so how, like, how do we align? It seems like we’re moving in like three different speeds. Right? We’ve got like the consumers we’re trailing behind everything. We’ve got the industry who’s like out in front trying to do everything they can in order to figure out like where’s profitability. And then we’ve got like the regulators and the legislation kind of like somewhere in between the two different parties trying to figure out like, what’s.
[00:16:37] What’s legal. What’s not, and how to kind of Inforce these things. So NA how does that work?
[00:16:45] Matt Moorerv: Well, so one, we reconcile that by stopping electing people, to legislate things they know nothing about that would be a good first step. I think, I don’t know a single person who represents me, who has a science degree, but there has been tons of [00:17:00] legislation passed every single year.
[00:17:02] That would be that I, as a scientist, look at and cringe at the way that they. You go back to the 1984 analogues act, they have addresses on how to regulate and monitor this right. Delta 10 THC might, may or may not be an analog of Delta nine, THC and Delta eight THC. But seeing as they’re all tetrahydrocannabinol at the same mass and same function in poverty relationships, they are analogs according to the legislation that definitely says.
[00:17:32] That they’re illegal. Right? So in, in the regulation they specifically call out function, right? So that’s why synthetic spice and all of those K2, all of those things were so easily passed under the analogs. That is because they serve the purpose of getting you high. And so if it serves the purpose of getting high, it falls under the analog, therefore da and D tin should all also fall under the analogs that now is the da going to enforce it.
[00:17:57] No, they’re scared too, because the legislature at any [00:18:00] time could pass full legalization. I wish case the da has no concern about it at all. And it’s a hundred percent FDA. FDA doesn’t want us to say anything because it’s not a drug yet. Well, it is a drug. THC is a drug CBD is a drug. So we can’t just say it’s over the counter available.
[00:18:14] They’re already prescription drugs. So unless there’s a bunch of work done to prove that it’s safe for over the counter sell, then the FDA is also going to be like, oh yeah, we can’t. And they’re just going to stand there silently until legislation is forced upon them because they don’t want to be the party.
[00:18:30] That’s guilty for making an action. That’s incorrect. And so until there’s actual legislation and we’re going to be at an impasse, so we still request allotment for our D nine and our da, we request a lot for CBN or our impurity profile, right? Like, and CBN is not even really psychoactive. I mean, you could argue that if you did enough, but like how much of that you need to be.
[00:18:52] Know, I’ve never smoked enough hash to get high, but I will say that I’ve had a CME in bait that [00:19:00] really helped with back pain, more so than CBD or THC alone, interestingly enough, but I did not feel high at all.
[00:19:07] Bryan Fields: So, so is this a case of same, same but
[00:19:11] Kellan Finney: different? No. I mean, it is interesting to think that that’s probably why it’s still the wild, wild west.
[00:19:18] Right. Yes, because the DEA and the FDA are kind of, kind of have their hands tied, you know? And even when it was
[00:19:26] Bryan Fields: like Mexican standoff.
[00:19:29] Kellan Finney: Yeah. And I’d like to think everyone’s wearing a cowboy hat and cowboy boots and we’re in an old Western town, you know what saying?
[00:19:36] Bryan Fields: Anchorman season two where it all just like, they’re just like all standing around, staring at each other, like throw it down.
[00:19:43] Kellan Finney: That’s exactly. What’s going on. I was at a conference five years ago in California cannabis conference. And there was some FDA individuals at that conference and they said that they were having focus groups about how to deal with this five years ago. Right. And so fast [00:20:00] forward five years, and it’s still federally illegal.
[00:20:02] So it’s going to have to come from some sort of bill that’s passed through the Senate and the house. Before the FDA or the DEA does anything. And I mean, the DEA isn’t even really isn’t even going after the, after cannabis, not heavily at all, you know what I mean? Like they don’t have the funding to write it.
[00:20:18] Matt Moorerv: from my understand, their internal directive is still the opioid epidemic, especially as it should be. Right. Like, okay. This should not be a DEA issue. It should be an FDA issue because one at the bare minimum, you’re going to see at least two isomers of D-10 THC And again, there’s no safety studies on D-10 at all.
[00:20:39] For any of you. So until that comes out, I mean, there are plenty of things that you can go get and have a non neuro-typical experience after huffing them. So that doesn’t make them, there’s the fact that it gives you high doesn’t mean that it’s a good thing to put in your body, but you know, like [00:21:00] another thing about the da with this safety in regards to relative to these two is if you look up Marcus Rogan, his company last year, earlier this year, put out a paper.
[00:21:10] That showed that if you babe, or if you smoke cannabis, then most of the denied converts to da that’s the thermodynamic pathway. It wants to be da. And so in fact, there’s probably more safety studies on da and we just didn’t know it.
[00:21:25] Bryan Fields: That’s pretty interesting. So let’s kind of dive into some of the research that I did on the internet and to describe the research I searched up at 10 and wanted to see kind of what came up.
[00:21:35] I hadn’t really learned too much about it. So I wanted to kind of see, so one of the quotes that I saw said that Delta 10 has the potential to appeal to a mass audience. That’s looking for a psychoactive benefits without the potential downsides caused by Delta nine, THC D 10 could be insanely popular because it can offer you for you and increased focus without paranoia and anxiety.
[00:21:59] [00:22:00] That’s a
[00:22:00] Matt Moorerv: hundred percent speculation. Of
[00:22:02] Bryan Fields: course it’s speculation. But like, what’s the thought process behind that?
[00:22:05] Kellan Finney: It’s good marketing. That’s the thought
[00:22:07] Matt Moorerv: behind it, someone snugged it
[00:22:11] Kellan Finney: because maybe they got the wrong isomer and it wasn’t psychoactive. Like Matt said in the episode, right. It’s like, oh, I did it after I smoked my weed.
[00:22:22] Like, I was totally relaxed
[00:22:24] Matt Moorerv: until. Are done at a university or a private company funds the actual studies and makes ICH compliant. True. Single isomer detail. Right.
[00:22:37] Bryan Fields: We don’t know how the was. Sure. And I wasn’t looking for like, obviously coming to do scientists about this, but I was more about like the concept on how.
[00:22:49] This person without reading the article, which of course, neither of you did, how would they try to associate a large audience to saying that it can increase focus without the paranoia and the anxiety? [00:23:00] That’s the part that intrigued me is because to me, to kind of bold claims, and I know that from this industry, we’re not supposed to make any of those types of claims.
[00:23:07] Right, right, right. So that’s, to me is, seems pretty bold. And considering what you said. They’ll depend on us, the chance to be insanely poppier, because it offers this euphoric feeling and increased focus, which seems to be pretty subjective. Right. Obviously we could all take the same product and feel very different.
[00:23:26] And also without the paranoid anxiety on the same part, I’m not sure about the two of you, how many times you’ve consumed cannabinoids and been anxious or paranoia. So I guess starting there, how, how does that whole thing.
[00:23:41] Matt Moorerv: By smoking weed every day and having a better baseline of THC in your system, you prevent yourself from being overwhelmed, but then you get an experience.
[00:23:50] Apart from that, I find it hard to believe that you could simultaneously increase, focus and reduce anxiety as those two generally coincide with each [00:24:00] other. Right. That’s the whole problem with Adderall, right? Is like people take Adderall and they get really productive and they get all their shit done.
[00:24:06] But then at the end of the day, they’re just like, everything’s wrong with it?
[00:24:13] Bryan Fields: I had a buddy in college that had to start by cleaning the room. Otherwise he’d spend the entire dime on Adderall and these rooms, or he is his kind of steps forward where I’m going to clean my room first and then take that all to the folks. But I think that’s a really good point. And Kaelin from your standpoint, like, is that something where, where this person’s making these claims about the fork and the locking in of the focus 10 cannabinoids help with increased focus?
[00:24:36] Kellan Finney: that person have a Dr. Period? Did you check the authors
[00:24:41] Bryan Fields: name and it needs to be an MD
[00:24:45] Kellan Finney: instead of another random case situation, because like at the end of the day, all of those claims are medical claims, right? And like, I’m not a doctor. I can tell you the exact biochemical situation that goes on internally for most humans [00:25:00] when they do experience anxiety.
[00:25:02] And if we’re going to talk about a molecule preventative, Anxiety, which is a biochemical reaction to the external environment that you’re in. Then we should probably be referencing exactly what that mode of reactions that are cascading through the human body, that, that molecule is causing that either prevent or facilitate either up-regulate or down-regulate that exactly.
[00:25:25] Chemical environment that is you experiencing anxiety, right? Increased heart rate, these other things. So, I mean, at the end of the day, that’s, if you’re going to make claims like that, they need to be vetted. And is there a reference to some primary literature that was accomplished at a hospital, like up from a clinical trial perspective?
[00:25:42] You know what I mean? Like, this is how, like, you need to try to. These kinds of claims when it comes to molecules that have never been studied from a clinical perspective, you know what I mean? So like that’s
[00:25:52] Bryan Fields: 5%, a hundred percent, and that makes a ton of sense too, and right. To continue on that path. Right.
[00:25:57] Like I read this article and I was [00:26:00] excited because the way he described the cannabinoids feelings is everything that I would look for and experience. But of course, as we know, Very misleading way and maybe some marketing fluff. I’ll admit. So you’re saying that after
[00:26:12] Kellan Finney: reading it, you would buy product.
[00:26:14] Bryan Fields: My first question was, I’m going to ask
[00:26:19] let me read you some of the alerts. Focus energy boost of creativity. Like, I mean, these are, these are all like the limitless, like feelings that have that get like locked in. And I mean, from a an initial marketing standpoint, I guess to back up the question is don’t, Turpins play a really vital role in this sort of combination effect that are not being described at all in this process.
[00:26:43] Or am I completely off. That
[00:26:44] Matt Moorerv: is complicated because they help with the absorption of molecules, right? Like not just cannabinoid start, things are, and like they assist in helping them sort of small nutrients micronutrients that you have in your food and things like that. There’s only [00:27:00] one beta carry off lean actually binds to the CB one receptors.
[00:27:03] And so it plays a role in that as well. But so like the example being syndromes are THC drug. It is just THC. It has strawberry flavor and vitamin E is a oxidative protective, any oxygen, and it is incredibly effective at stimulating. And easing any sort of neuropathic pain and there are no type things in there.
[00:27:28] So it still functions as it’s supposed to, not to say that the turpines and the entourage effect are something that’s really valuable and needs to be investigated more because I do believe that they play a role. Right. And it’s just that whenever we’re talking about ultra pure DNI, right? Like the stuff that you get out of a plant, you’re going to isolate it and get it up to 95%.
[00:27:46] Whereas if you do it synthetically, you’re going to have 99 plus, and that 5% of other little minor candidates. Seems to play a huge role in whether or not someone has an axial eugenic effect from it and whether or not they have a really anxious [00:28:00] high. So whenever people overdo it on their syndromes, because it doesn’t hugely and they, you know, they’d be like, what’s 50 milligrams that doesn’t sound like very much and it’s 10 times the normal dose.
[00:28:11] And so, yeah, and it’s pure THC. They don’t have anything that attenuates how it affects that CB one receptor. I can see how that might play a role. But there’s a lot of conditional statements in there because it’s all speculative and there are not pharmacokinetics studies that prove it to be true until then all of this and all of these weird mixtures that are being produced, I would want them, you can’t make a claim on that mixture.
[00:28:34] Right? Cause the mixture may have an effect that any single isomer doesn’t, which is why there are clinical trials, but things that are 50% CBD at 50% THC and 75% CBD and 25% THC. As like these ratios, they they’d play some sort of role because they affect the receptor and the protein in different ways.
[00:28:53] So THC binds in the CB one receptor, but CBD is what’s called an alasteric modulator. And [00:29:00] so it actually, so if this is the receptor, it’s even, he comes in and it sits on top and it makes it smaller. And that gives out your natural anatomize that normally sits in the CB one receptor and also kicks out THC.
[00:29:11] If you have a whole lot more THC than it kind of like, well, we’ll send it out while I was in and out. And so there’s all sorts of different things that can be attenuated, but these different mixtures. So to say that terpene or another isomer doesn’t have an effect would be wrong. However, these guys making these claims with D 10 are just blowing smoke
[00:29:31] Bryan Fields: fair to wonder it’s like the science aspect.
[00:29:34] We’ll never be able to catch up to all the different combinations and. Products out there. I mean, it seems like the science is behind. Obviously we need to take some time. We need some research and then some funding, but like it fair to wonder like how the two of them will kind of get on the same
[00:29:49] Matt Moorerv: timeline.
[00:29:50] There are types of studies that can be done. And so there’s all sorts of work that’s being done to improve that. Not for cannabinoids, but for pharmaceuticals in general. Right? So drug [00:30:00] discovery can take a long time and doing a structured reactivity analysis because I said a rule I was taught is nature.
[00:30:06] Doesn’t make stuff. Right. We find stuff in nature that has a use, but that’s not to say we can’t take that and make it better. THC is really good at a lot of things. That CBD is really good at a lot of things. That’s not to say there isn’t some designer molecule that we could pay that would be better. So like a simpler example.
[00:30:24] Do you use traditional motor oil or some better? No. Then most, I don’t think a car has been using traditional motor oil since 2005, 2004, something like that. Whenever they switched off. Mean it switched to synthetic because it was worse. We did it because we specifically designed the properties we wanted in that molecule and then bulked it up and, and produce that.
[00:30:46] So that way it wants exactly how we want it. That’s why you can run your car to 10,000 miles. Now you don’t blow a cylinder. And maybe D 10 isn’t, maybe the R isomer is the best cannabinoid ever. And it cures everything. And that might be the [00:31:00] case, but until we actually see ultimately pure controlled studies of that molecule, it’s all smoke.
[00:31:07] Alright. So
[00:31:07] Bryan Fields: then let’s kind of dive
[00:31:12] Kellan Finney: once it’s legal, once cannabis becomes. I think that you’ll get regulations. And then now you have federal regular regulatory bodies that are a gonna regulate the sale. So now these companies that are sitting on inventory as a CBD, there will be a huge penalty for even exploring the manufacturing of say Delta three or the next cannabinoid.
[00:31:35] Right. And so then there’s no financial benefit to the investment. There’s only going to be a huge detriment. And so then at that point, The whole, the entire cannabinoid industry will be regulated on a federal level. And you’ll see everything changed because you won’t have gas stations selling Delta 10 beverages.
[00:31:55] If it’s not legal, because they will lose their license and go to jail. [00:32:00] Right. Because they’re breaking the law at that point right now it’s so gray that no one knows what the law really is. And if you have a really good lawyer, You’re going to potentially be able to get your way out of it because of how the law’s written at this point.
[00:32:13] And so that’s, that’s my 2 cents on how all of these, how the, yeah, the science won’t catch up. It’s going to be regular regulations. That’s going to dictate what is generally available to the, to the mass market.
[00:32:27] Matt Moorerv: Right. So
[00:32:28] looking at how they react as well is looping back around there, like places like Merck and Pfizer, major drug companies that do structured reactivity analysis Look at. Growing in organ and as in a Petri dish. Right. And how does it respond to that organ What does it do to a liver What does it do to the kidney? Look at the different toxicity, common toxicity routes and say, oh, it doesn’t kill a liver. That’s a good sign, right? Because you may have this thing that works tremendously in rats and then you put it in a person.and they just die Right. Like you eat chocolate every single [00:33:00] day, but if your dog gets into your dark chocolate, then he could just die or a great, right. Like just these common things that are everywhere and they don’t have any effect on a smaller or different creature. And because of one mutation in one inside that humans have that no one else does.
[00:33:14] It could create traumatic cascade events. And that’s the type of thing that has to be avoided, which is why things are tested on animals. Generally before they go into humans. Last
[00:33:25] Bryan Fields: time we spoke about da, we, we talked about the challenges of making a stable product. Does DTN have that same issue?
[00:33:34] Matt Moorerv: So anyone who has trouble making a stable Deej product should definitely not buy the da isn’t
[00:33:42] Bryan Fields: no, that though, like no one is writing on a label.
[00:33:46] I don’t make a stable da product. Buy my product.
[00:33:49] Matt Moorerv: Well, discoloration.
[00:33:52] Bryan Fields: But when you buy a product, you don’t inspect the inside of the package. You just buy the package, correct?
[00:33:59] Matt Moorerv: Yeah. [00:34:00] So I don’t, I wouldn’t buy da for that reason.
[00:34:05] Bryan Fields: There’s a lot of things, not regulated too, that people just kind of take for granted.
[00:34:09] This is like the worst thing I hear is like, oh, I bought it on the internet. Like, it’s fine. And it’s like, that’s a really troubling statement. That’ll probably get you in trouble. And like a lot of different areas specifically, if you’re consuming products, you buy off the internet and just take for granted.
[00:34:23] Matt Moorerv: What’s it like things like the color was da that people try to sell. Da is not colorless. The molecule itself absorbs a certain spectrum of light that gives it a yellow, 10 of sheerest of pure D and it’s, and I’m talking 99.99 is yellow is very, very Pell, but it is not colorless. And so things like that, like in babe cartridges, more what I would reference it with the, with the color being.
[00:34:48] If you’re in just colors as you’re smoking it out of a vape cartridge, still not da da, it doesn’t do that. So actually an edible is like a little bit less terrifying because you, you [00:35:00] eat random stuff all the time. And like your food has a bunch of little micro things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s
[00:35:10] Bryan Fields: I removed five or six different foods off my consumption.
[00:35:15] Matt Moorerv: You don’t like the acceptable number of cockroach legs and your chocolate? No, I think
[00:35:19] Bryan Fields: this is the part of it where like, I would like to cut this out and I think maybe we just removed that far.
[00:35:26] I mean, the beans is not the worst part. It’s like the tomato aspect, this launch, all the things that I really enjoy, that I’ve just been ruined me.
[00:35:33] Matt Moorerv: I’ll read any FDA guidance on food then.
[00:35:36] Bryan Fields: Sure. So then let’s kind of simplify the whole topic, right? There’s like this educational thing that we always try to go back to and try to help our listeners make better educated decisions.
[00:35:45] We talk about the complexity of walking through dispensary and being overwhelmed with the sheer amount of products. One could argue that if DEA gets pushed pretty aggressively to being illegal naturally. Some of these facilities will look to push for D 10 products, [00:36:00] which become increasingly more popular.
[00:36:02] Should you provide hesitancy to meet? Should we encourage our listeners to maybe hesitate before buying T 10 products? What do you think?
[00:36:10] Matt Moorerv: I absolutely like the chemistry that there is similar to buying CBM from an unknown source in the market. There are tons of ways to make it. And there’s only about one way that I would.
[00:36:21] To make a version that I can sit. And the chances of them using that method are pretty low, because I know that they’re not currently published, but not published. And there’s not any patent literature. So that’s type of chemistry that you would have to be an organic chemist and know a lot of background to, just to just have that knowledge.
[00:36:37] Most of these people making these molecules do not in my industry.
[00:36:44] Bryan Fields: I
[00:36:44] Kellan Finney: mean, and I wouldn’t even say like, just any old brand and organic chemistry, right? Like organic chemistry. There is a fine line between someone who has passed organic chemistry and someone who’s like a wizard at organic chemistry and organic chemistry is hard.
[00:36:58] Right. We started off by saying like, [00:37:00] it’s the class with the highest DWF rate in any college at every college across the entire globe. Right. There’s a reason it’s so challenging. I mean, you are literally making new molecules that the environment has a nature, right? Like if you can put that into perspective, it’s, it’s insane.
[00:37:17] Right. And so there’s a lot of people just mixing things together, like wizards back in the day. And it’s a lot of like potions right now because. I mean, I’m going to go back to the reference of us all wearing cowboy hats, stand around in an old Lester town, right? The guy that has the new elixir that could cure everything.
[00:37:33] And if you’ve seen some of the, the marketing from like the early 19 hundreds about like the elixirs that could cure your back pain and make you grow and you’re smarter and all these things that are not illegal to claim, like we’re kind of right back in that same way. Gray area. Right?
[00:37:52] Matt Moorerv: One of the best ones I’ve found was in, it was an empty bottle and one of my grad school labs, which was a tincture and [00:38:00] chloroform made with heroin and stem cannabis extract, as well as like 28 ounces of pure alcohol.
[00:38:12] I don’t know what it was marketed to cure everything on the bottle. Right.
[00:38:20] I’m like you’re drinking chloroquine. It’s also going to cure your life, I guess.
[00:38:25] Bryan Fields: I mean, from a marketing standpoint, if they don’t start making progressive moves forward with kind of getting states online faster and kind of clarifying what is legal and what’s not, I think that depends going to get popular, especially when people start marketing it around alertness focus, energy, creativity.
[00:38:42] It doesn’t have to actually do that. But if they can push that and people can conceptualize that concept and they’re like, well, it’s a better version of Adderall. You’re going to have such mass appeal that it’s going to just be overwhelming. And, and that’s the kind of scary part too, is that like, like we were saying before, it’s like, there’s the three different [00:39:00] speeds that are moving the customers, the industry, and then the regulator.
[00:39:04] So I just say one minute. From a marketing standpoint. Like it’s hard not to get excited when you read that, but also talking with you guys, it gives me so much more pause when being open to considering those products, just understanding the science behind
[00:39:18] Matt Moorerv: it. So one of the, one of the aspects that is overlooked is, is not the toxicity of any given canal, because do tend to be completely American.
[00:39:28] It may automate it’s psychoactive and has no toxicity. What about the other 5% of stuff that’s in there? The other 3%, 2%, even if it’s 1%, if you take it every day, there’s a reason that, that we have these guidelines that limit it to like a purity level of no impurity to being more than 0.1% based off the assumption that you’re not going to have more than a gram a day, which would be, which would be right at 10, 10 milligrams of material.
[00:39:56] Right. So you’re talking about trying to stop people from taking 10 milligrams of material. [00:40:00] And something that they may be smoking, like, especially like the, the, the flower with the eight on it. Right. If you’re smoking that every day, if you’re smoking joints at that every day and chronic, then that’s something that’s in there.
[00:40:11] 10 milligrams may end up being alive if it accumulates or if it’s carcinogenic or if it’s right, like there are any number of things that are incredibly potent at really low levels. Whenever it’s treated. And so that’s the reason like if pharmaceuticals are, have to, right, I’m not going to say that the price of pharmaceuticals represents their value.
[00:40:31] That’s the reason pharmaceuticals are expensive is because of the documentation and the purification and all the work that goes in to prove that I’m not giving you anything other than what I tell you what I’m giving
[00:40:42] Bryan Fields: then. So we’ve got two predictions this time. It’s 20, 23. It’s not too far from now.
[00:40:48] Is Delta 10 wildly popular.
[00:40:52] Matt Moorerv: Depends on what happens with da, I guess, and with fully was Asian. I mean, I think that people could just go buy some bud. They would be able to buy some bud, [00:41:00]
[00:41:01] Bryan Fields: but it’s 20, 23 and I’m looking for is D 10 popular. And when I, when just to give a framework of reference of what popular means similar to the type of buzz that da has kind of given the space,
[00:41:14] Matt Moorerv: probably, I mean, right.
[00:41:16] Like people seem to really like the novelty of the new thing. They’re like, give me some CDs. CDC is not even psychoactive and it may have anti-inflammatory properties, but there’s only like one brief study that shows that it, that it might
[00:41:31] Bryan Fields: what weeds that study. They just like to hear a new cannabinoid in the morning to their friends.
[00:41:35] So it’s just insert new cannabinoid and say, give me that telling your thoughts. No,
[00:41:41] Kellan Finney: I don’t think so. I think that by 2022. You’re going to see, continue to see this cascade of states legalizing adult use. Right?
[00:41:50] Matt Moorerv: What do you mean that by 2023, there’ll be another one in front of D 10. That’s more fun.
[00:41:56] Kellan Finney: No, I don’t think so.
[00:41:56] I go back to the fact that I think the popularity in da is [00:42:00] strictly driven by the fact that people want to get high and Delta, it gets you high and you can sell it legally and states that weed’s not. Right. And I think that I go back to the point where people could just smoke Bob, like you said, Matt, like they would just smoke bud.
[00:42:14] Right. So I think by 2023, there’s gonna be a massive, I think the market’s only going to continue to grow. I don’t think we’re going to slow down as far as adult use states coming online. I think it’s probably only going to speed up potentially. And so by 2023, I think that more than 80% of adult consumers that are looking for this kind of stuff will have access to.
[00:42:36] Right. I mean, that’s my, that’s my desk. So that’s what I’d go with. Does
[00:42:40] Bryan Fields: B can have, let’s say a plate.
[00:42:47] Kellan Finney: No, I don’t think
[00:42:47] Matt Moorerv: so. I think it could. Yes. Any of these marketing claims are true right through then as of right now, they’re not clinical claims. They’re marketing [00:43:00] plans. They’re also on a material that is mildly terrifying and concept to me to try to consider. Sure.
[00:43:06] Bryan Fields: And I’m not saying any of us should be the Guinea pigs in pushing the details, but in the same aspect that people could find a way to boost creativity, focus, alertness, they’re all looking for additional outlets and ways to improve their efforts.
[00:43:20] Or at least some people are. That’s why people take shit on Adderall and scholars. Maybe not for all the same reasons we described there, maybe for personal reasons, but there’s reasons why. That that’s really popular in college. And if people can take a more natural product to kind of meet those needs, I think it works.
[00:43:37] And obviously there’s a ton of signs that needs to go down. The marketing claims obviously need to be validated, but I think if there is a product that can kind of suit that combination of a more focused bus, paranoid feel,
[00:43:51] Matt Moorerv: I mean, I think designer cannabinoids are a hundred percent billable, the same of the psychedelics and entheogens right.
[00:43:59] There’s been a [00:44:00] moratorium on them for 40 years. And then as it turns out, the second you make them clinically available, they have a huge clinical value. Right. But again, nature does not make stuff. We just happened to find shit that nature made and we’re like, oh, this is cool. It gets me hot. And as it turns out, if I add a flooring group right here, I never processed it and I can be high for the next six months.
[00:44:20] That’s a little
[00:44:20] Bryan Fields: too old for me. All right. Real prediction time. Last time you were on mat, we teased out, we were talking about Delta eight, which if you’re listening to this podcast, go back and listen to Matt’s apparently the most popular episode. And I’m fearful that by the time this gets released, he won’t be number one.
[00:44:35] And Matt really wants to be number. We talked about da, we don’t really deep into it today. We’re talking about Delta 10 max. What’s the next cannabinoid that is going to be more forward thinking approach that some haven’t really thought about that should be at least on the radar.
[00:44:56] Matt Moorerv: So one of the things that you’ll find [00:45:00] is.
[00:45:01] CBD and THC V markets. So these are the ones where the active part of the molecule is more or less the same, and it has a different name tell. So I’m looking at the molecule that has a five member gel. You also can get a three member tell and a seven member tell also the one. Yeah. And a four out of the crude extract.
[00:45:21] Those are the most common ones. The odd numbers are way, way more common, but the C3 is in clinicals as CBD B and compared to CBD, it’s essentially identical. THC will probably meet the same thing and they’re hesitant to schedule THCV because it has a different mass, even though it has a very, very similar effect, different mask, different molecular formula.
[00:45:43] Well, now we move further away from the analog Xact and they’re very hesitant to make any plans about something. Wasn’t really talked about prior to CBD being a big thing and it being a big thing. And now it’s all hemp derived, CBD and THC, so that they’re very hesitant to move against that. Well, the [00:46:00] C7.
[00:46:01] Actually tends to be significantly on the order of a thousand times to 5,000 times more potent the C7 molecule, it occurs like 0.2% relative to the, or yeah. 0.2% relative to the C5 in any given THC plant. So not something that you can really isolate your way to, but synthetically can be made very, very easily, like the exact same way that we make our denied and all of that.
[00:46:27] Our C5. That’s something where if nothing else, you could give one, 1000 the dose and have the same clinical effect. And so I think that the way that we’re going is people want a natural one bear in mind, that’s 114 different molecules that you can call it more than that. Or from the plant. So once people get less averse to the idea of synthetic the term synthetic, then I think that that will be the way to go.
[00:46:56] Because again, nature doesn’t make things for us. So there’s [00:47:00] three modifications you can make to a THC molecule that basically will give you an irreversible. Of course, most people don’t want that. But if the intent is to make a molecule, it gets you high, then we’re not going to abandon my find the best one.
[00:47:13] If you want to find the random best one heroin already exists. And also the Delta Delta,
[00:47:20] Bryan Fields: our teaser clip. It might just take that one. Heroin. That’d be a real good.
[00:47:27] Matt Moorerv: You’re the same synthetic steps away with da D 10, the same number of steps away from a natural product as you are with heroin for morphine and the same with THC, which we didn’t even talk about today.
[00:47:38] I don’t even know what that was. Oh, acetate it’s CHC acetate. Water-soluble one. It’s the only grease cycle.
[00:47:51] Kellan Finney: All
[00:47:51] Bryan Fields: right. So, so what I’m hearing from you is the next time you come on, you want to talk about THC? Oh,
[00:47:57] Matt Moorerv: I don’t know that there’s that much to talk about other than [00:48:00] it’s literally the same modification that goes from, from morphine.
[00:48:05] Bryan Fields: Well, I’m pretty sure I can find at least one article to bring up to really upset the scientists in the room. So I’m sure we can find something to talk about calling your cannabinoid of choice for the future. That will be more popular. And I saw you doing a little research, so I’m expecting
[00:48:20] Kellan Finney: a good one.
[00:48:20] You won’t buy a little research? No. Are they TCV potentially. I’ve heard a lot about to CV, a lot of the anecdotal evidence from individuals who have. Consumed it say
[00:48:32] Bryan Fields: it’s not, as soon as it goes in line with what Matt
[00:48:34] Kellan Finney: was saying, that it’s not as potent, so it’s a lot easier to consume throughout the day.
[00:48:41] It’s harder to overdo it. Exactly. And so I think because of that, if you’re looking at like a potential business model, if you have a product that you’re selling, that they’re gonna consume more of throughout the entire day, then that equates to making more money. In my opinion, [00:49:00] Right. Or just like, if you’re doing a one-to-one ratio, I understand there’s a lot more variables involved in that assumption.
[00:49:05] Right. But because of that effect, I think that it could potentially be a lot more popular when smoking lounges get mixed with bars, you have people consuming alcohol and the spins are a real thing. We all went well. A lot of us went to college and understand how that whole thing affects a lot of individuals, right.
[00:49:23] Pointing to one of us,
[00:49:26] Bryan Fields: but didn’t go to college. I apologize for the technical issues is my internet dropped. We appreciate you listening. And we’ll release this episode with video on YouTube as well. Let us know if you want us to keep dropping the video recordings. Thanks again for the support.[00:50:00]