Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
This week we are joined by Shaleen Title , Founder of Parabola Center to discuss:
- Safe Banking
- Preventing Monopolies
- Building an Equitable Industry
- Is Big Tobacco a threat to Cannabis?
Shaleen Title is an Indian-American attorney and longtime drug policy activist who has been writing, passing, and implementing equitable cannabis laws for over 20 years. She is a former top regulator for the state of Massachusetts, where she served as commissioner of the Cannabis Control Commission from 2017 to 2020. She is the author of “Fair and Square: How to Effectively Incorporate Social Equity Into Cannabis Laws and Regulations” and “Bigger is Not Better: Preventing Monopolies in the National Cannabis Market.”
Parabola Center is a nonprofit think tank of legal professionals and drug policy experts coming together to protect people, not corporations. Our mission is to provide everyone with access and expertise to participate in the drug policy arena.
https://www.shaleentitle.com/
https://www.parabolacenter.com/
https://twitter.com/parabolacenter
https://twitter.com/shaleentitle
#Cannabis #Cannabiscommunity #tobacco
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in the cannabinoid industry.
8th Revolution Cannabinoid Playbook is an Industry-leading report covering the entire cannabis supply chain
The Dime is a top 50 Cannabis Podcast
Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s
[00:00:02] up guys. Welcome back to an episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always as ke Finnie and this week, we’ve got a very special guest Shalene title co-founder of Powerball center Shalene. Thanks for taking the time. How you doing today?
[00:00:14]Shaleen Title: I’m good. Thank you for having me
[00:00:15]Bryan Fields: on excited to dive in Cowan.
[00:00:17] How are you
[00:00:17]Kellan Finney: doing? I’m doing really good, really excited to talk about law and regulations around the cannabis industry. How are you,
[00:00:23]Bryan Fields: Brian? I’m excited. We’ve got a lot of topics to hit today with Shalene, but I guess for the record, Shalene your location,
[00:00:31]Shaleen Title: uh, north of Boston in Massachusetts.
[00:00:33]Bryan Fields: So let the record say another east coaster as the wave continues.
[00:00:37] So Chalene for our listeners that I’m familiarly brought you. Can you give a little background about.
[00:00:44]Shaleen Title: Sure. Um, so I’m a very long time cannabis activist. I got started in college a little over 20 years ago, working on legalization. And, uh, it was obviously very different back then. Um, but throughout the past 20 [00:01:00] years, Um, I’ve done a lot of advocacy work.
[00:01:03] I was lucky to work on the first legalization initiative in Colorado and some failed ones before that. Um, I was an entrepreneur starting the first recruiting firm, uh, for diversity and inclusion in cannabis in 2013. Um, I practiced law, uh, representing small cannabis businesses. . And then while I was doing that, I was invited to apply to be a regulator in Massachusetts in 2017.
[00:01:34] So I did that for three years and then when I left, um, I thought it was really important to have a voice representing small and minority own businesses in particular at the federal level. So I started a think tank called parabola center. We are not funded by, um, big marijuana money or any type of, um, big corporate money, because we thought it [00:02:00] was really important to have an organization in that space.
[00:02:03] So that’s what I do now.
[00:02:04]Bryan Fields: I’m glad you brought that. I know that’s always a big sticking point and then announcing that is, is really critical. So I have people aware, but I wanna start kind of earlier on in your career, was cannabis a big part of your life? Like how did you migrate into the space? Was it something you always thought you, you would enter.
[00:02:19]Shaleen Title: you know, um, it was just one of those things in college where like you learn about different, uh, things that you, you may not have been aware of. And it was very clear that the cannabis laws were unfair. I liked to use cannabis. I especially liked to use it around then. And it seemed like everybody around me was, um, Very much in favor of legalizing regardless of their politics or their party.
[00:02:47] And so this has been kind of a recurring theme in my career. Um, it just kind of felt like everybody was saying, wow, somebody should do something about this so I thought, okay, why don’t I, and that’s [00:03:00] kind of how I got started.
[00:03:01]Kellan Finney: Did, uh, cannabis have any influence on you deciding to go to law school? Or was it kind of like you went to law school and you still, um, were just noticing these cannabis laws were unfair and then you just kind of merged the two
[00:03:14]Shaleen Title: interests.
[00:03:15] Oh a hundred percent. That was the reason why I went to law school. Um, I was really involved as a student. Yeah. Around that time, students for sensible drug policy was a pretty influential organization. It still is. And so, um, there were students that were passing medical cannabis laws, uh, really as the leaders, they were writing them, they were organizing patients.
[00:03:38] And so I got to see that and be involved in it. And it was a really cool way. Understand that young people can make change, you know, on their own. You don’t really need . You don’t really need anything else. Except a lot of motivated people. What was the Illinois’s
[00:03:55]Kellan Finney: medical market, like back in the day, when, when you first got involved in the industry?
[00:03:59]Shaleen Title:[00:04:00] Um, so I was a part of Illinois normal and, uh, my very first time lobbying was in Illinois. And that was the time when, um, I would say legislators were not really ready to hear it. But we were seeing at that time, this was the early two thousands. We were seeing ballot initiatives passing in other places.
[00:04:22] Um, I remember Rhode Island really specifically, uh, but Illinois ended up being the first state of course, to pass by legislation rather than by ballot initiative. Um, and that happened about 10 years after I started, um, which has been another recurring theme in my career is planting seeds. And then seeing them pay off several years later.
[00:04:43]Bryan Fields: Yeah, that’s the best way I love that. You said that they weren’t ready to hear it. So I guess my, my follow up question is, are, are they ready to hear it now?
[00:04:50]Shaleen Title: Oh, more than ready. I mean, I think the Illinois legislators have done a great job, you know, in the circumstances being the first to do it, they have gone back and, and tweaked [00:05:00] the law several times.
[00:05:01] Um, and I think in general, legislators are very open to hearing about cannabis right now, and very interested in hearing about it from a social justice perspective in
[00:05:11]Bryan Fields: part. Yeah, I’m glad you brought that up. So let’s stay with Paraba center and the value it brings. I know you said it’s not funded by big cannabis business.
[00:05:18] Who, who like, who is the, the intention of the organization for, and who does it help?
[00:05:24]Shaleen Title: So it’s a nonprofit 5 0 1 3 organization, 5 0 1 C3 organization. And it is intended to help the population that really every cannabis policy organization says it wants to help, which is what I would describe as historically excluded communities.
[00:05:43] So certainly small businesses, certainly, um, minority owned. Those that are owned by communities that have been disproportionately harmed by. Prohibition, um, farmers, veterans, and then women, uh, and people who have [00:06:00] otherwise been excluded, um, as entrepreneurs. And the reason I mention all of these groups is because I think that they are very much, um, their needs are often very much in contrast to what big companies need.
[00:06:13] Uh, not always, but often. And so when you. Organizations that are funded by big corporations. They’re not able to take those bold transformative positions that an organization like parabola center. Can,
[00:06:28]Bryan Fields: can you describe some of those positions that your team takes in order to, to advocate, but on behalf of your clients,
[00:06:35]Shaleen Title: Yeah, so they’re not our clients, um, because we’re, we’re technically a charity, but as a think tank, um, I would give you one short term and one long term example. So the short term example is the safe banking act. Um, we’ve done a lot of work to try to make sure that if the safe banking act is going to pass that, uh, excuse me.
[00:06:57] It, it. Strong [00:07:00] provisions that will make sure that these historically excluded businesses are actually able to get banking if they’re not able to now, or at least to send us in that direction. So we’ve done a lot of specific work on that. And then long term we’re very interested in anti monopoly work. In other words, we don’t want to.
[00:07:17] See, the cannabis industry become like so many others where three to five companies control, you know, the vast majority of the market and treat their workers badly, treat their consumers badly and kind of, you know, do whatever they want because they have a monopoly or monopoly. So we’ve done a lot of work on federal legislation that would avoid that result.
[00:07:40] Is there,
[00:07:40]Kellan Finney: um, a way that safe banking can be drafted so that it, it helps prevent
[00:07:45]Bryan Fields: monopolies?
[00:07:48]Shaleen Title: Ooh, that’s an interesting question. Um, I think the safe banking act is very narrow. And so I don’t think that we could prevent monopolies per se, [00:08:00] but we could certainly amend it so that it’s helping small businesses, at least as much as it’s helping big businesses.
[00:08:08] And I think that’s what, um, the amendments that we’ve put forth, uh, would do. And. Uh, suggest if people wanna see more specifics, the cannabis regulators of color coalition, which I’m a founding member of, uh, just put out a panel and a paper going through the specific amendments and parabola center provided legal and technical assistance on the paper.
[00:08:31] That’s the kind of thing that we can do, cause we’re not gonna know about every single subject, right? Like I’m not a banking expert, but what we can do is help, um, As a think tank to make sure that there’s someone there who’s not a big company lobbyist, that’s actually representing what the people want, uh, on a given situation.
[00:08:51] And then do the legal research, do the model, bill drafting and try and make sure most importantly, that the public has access to those tools and can advocate for [00:09:00] them as well. The.
[00:09:01]Bryan Fields: Shalene. It’s so important that you say those things because we’ve had voices in the community that make mention that, you know, how am I supposed to compete with these bigger businesses, these big MSOs and these other people lobby me again.
[00:09:11] So just expanding on that Shalene, you know, what is our current status today for safe banking? And what do you think is needed to get over the line so that it can be passed on both parties?
[00:09:23]Shaleen Title: Uh, so I’m, I’m not a politician or a lobbyist, you know, so I’m not necessarily the expert on that, but I will say that.
[00:09:31] I do feel much more optimistic than I have the past six or seven times that this bill, you know, has been passed by one chamber and failed because I’ve been very consistently calling for amendments for at least a year. As soon as I sat down and, and read the bill. When my term, as a state regulator ended, I realized there were a lot of problems with safe banking and raised them.
[00:09:56] And. To quote myself, people weren’t ready to hear it [00:10:00] at that time. But this year, I think there’s just been a change among, um, both the public and legislators and their staff where they really wanna get this done. And they want to make this a bill that is equitable and where. The talking points about the bill, right?
[00:10:18] That it would improve access to banking and financial services for small businesses, you know, improve public safety, uh, to make the bill actually do that. And so there have been very robust conversations about amendments. Um, I do think there’s openness to amend the bill and. A lot of people ask me when they look at our amendments.
[00:10:39] You know, what about Republicans? I don’t think that Republicans are going to stop this bill from passing, just because it has some provisions in it that are going to benefit small businesses. I think that if Republicans support the safe banking act, they’re going to continue to support it with equitable amendment.
[00:10:59] As well, [00:11:00] the most important thing right now in my mind is if you are part of these populations that are supposedly the beneficiaries of this bill, that you should be paying attention and looking at the amendments, um, and certainly talking to your, to your representatives in Congress about it.
[00:11:17]Bryan Fields: Do you think you could
[00:11:17]Kellan Finney: elaborate, um, for some of our listeners on why safe banking is gonna provide kind of a, a more level playing field for small businesses versus the, the larger entities.
[00:11:29]Shaleen Title: Well, to be clear as written, I don’t think it would do that. I totally oppose safe banking in its current form. Um, because it to, to put it succinctly, it gives banks a safe Harbor and then leaves it completely up to banks who they’re going to work with and how, and the banking and financial services industry does not have.
[00:11:54] Reputation or data showing that it has been equitable or fair that has to be [00:12:00] done through regulation. And so that’s why we have these amendments
[00:12:04]Bryan Fields: yeah. Asking them to go against their norm would seem to be kind of counterintuitive to helping. All right. If we, if we say this is supposed to help someone, then we should actually make sure that it does help them.
[00:12:14] Exactly. So let’s, let’s continue on with social equity, who is building from a statewide perspective, who is building a social equity program the right way. And who do you think needs to.
[00:12:25]Shaleen Title: Ooh. Um, everybody needs to improve myself included. I think I, I think New York is going to do a good job, um, on paper.
[00:12:37] It’s a very good program that has. Um, really, uh, taken into account what we have done wrong in other states. So Massachusetts was the first state to have a statewide social equity program. And, um, I wrote a whole paper on. How I recommend incorporating social equity into [00:13:00] legalization based on our experience.
[00:13:02] But I would say the biggest lesson is that we tried to build a social equity program, get it off the ground and do outreach at the same time that we let the bigger companies just, um, start immediately because we wanted to be fair and we wanted to be. Quick. Um, but what happened was, um, just the difference between those two groups was so vast that it really made it difficult for those smaller businesses to compete.
[00:13:32] And eventually I think we recovered from that, but it was a hard lesson and it took years. And so I think that whereas many other states have just kind of copy and pasted that same model. Um, and a lot of bills that are being funded by larger organizations would even do worse than, um, what I’ve described in Massachusetts.
[00:13:54] Uh, New York has. Done the opposite. Um, they really have focused [00:14:00] on not only making sure that small businesses have the, um, resources that they need, but that they will be the ones to go first. Now, again, this is all on paper so once we see what plays out on the ground, it could go completely differently.
[00:14:17] Um, but I I’m very optimistic about it.
[00:14:19]Kellan Finney: Historically speaking, what has been the, the biggest challenge from taking the. The idea on paper in theory, and actually implementing it, um, on the streets.
[00:14:31]Shaleen Title: Um, the timing is a huge one, right? So, so making sure that you are as much. Crap as regulators get for taking time that they’re taking their time and making sure that, um, they’re not letting the market get dominated, uh, in the meantime.
[00:14:49] And then also, um, you have to do a lot to gain some trust, right? Because if you go into a community that has been disproportionately harmed by prohibition, and you’re like, [00:15:00] Hey, I’m the government. I know you’ve been completely oppressed by us in the past. And you have a conviction and it’s ruined your life and your parents’ lives and your kids’ life.
[00:15:07] But now we wanna. Um, they’re not immediately going to be excited by that this time is different. It’s different. It’s different. Trust me, trust me. Right. So I think it takes a lot of investment. It takes a lot of coalition building a lot of outreach. Um, and that’s something that regulators have to, to take very seriously.
[00:15:26] And again, invest in, start with
[00:15:29]Bryan Fields: a system that is fair and open competition to begin with. Then move to add in benefits of social equity, is this order critical to success of a.
[00:15:39]Shaleen Title: That is a question of someone that has done their homework. Yes. . That is absolutely the most critical, critical part. And, and again, that’s what I learned in Massachusetts.
[00:15:48] Right. If I could go back and do it again, I would think a lot more about order of operations. Why
[00:15:54]Bryan Fields: is it
[00:15:55]Shaleen Title: so critical? Well, because it’s, it’s, uh, [00:16:00] a lot of people say that social equity programs set people up to fail. Um, you know, and someone who works on these programs, like that’s really painful to hear. Um, but I understand why people say that because if they are watching other companies get a first mover advantage, you know, get cut, get consumers right away.
[00:16:21] Um, Customers coming to their store, even though they’ve done nothing. Right. You know, they just happen to be in the state and open, and that’s really all they have to offer. They’ve got bad quality products at high prices, you know, and you’re watching that. And you’re not even, um, able to take advantage of the program yet because it’s just being built.
[00:16:41] Um, I can understand why you would feel like it’s, it’s setting you up to fail. So that’s something for us to, to learn. from
[00:16:50]Bryan Fields: seen that in Massachusetts cannabis delivery companies need two drivers. Why do they need two, two people in the.
[00:16:59]Shaleen Title: Yeah, they [00:17:00] don’t the answer to that is they don’t uh, I had a really tough time as a regulator.
[00:17:05] Um, if you go back and watch the meetings, um, you’ll like, see my blood pressure going up and like my veins pumping outta my head, cuz there’s some really ridiculous regulations. Um, the worst one is actually that, uh, Delivery operators actually need to wear a body camera when they make the delivery, um, which is such an invasion of privacy in my mind.
[00:17:29] Um, but the reason that we have all of these regulations is because, uh, we had to make votes as a commission. And in order to get the majority of votes, we had to have these, um, regulations that would, I guess, assuage the concerns of. People who are focused on public health and public safety, but the good news is, um, I think the, the plan all along was that we could start with very strict regulations, see how it works.
[00:17:59] If there’s no [00:18:00] incidents, um, change them. It’s built that way. The regulators have terms, uh, all five of the original commissioners have now left. I was the only one who made it to the end of my term, in fact. And so you have now new commissioners who can talk to the businesses that are operating, um, understand their.
[00:18:21] Point of view, look at the data and then decide if they want to change regulations like this.
[00:18:27]Bryan Fields: Yeah. That’s gotta be a really challenging compromise. So is that a matter of ensuring the safety of the delivery, obviously that adds to the total cost and, and hinders the business. Plus if you’re a consumer and two people show up in a car, it’s, it’s kind of odd, right?
[00:18:40] If, if my Uber driver shows up and he is got a delivery for me, and he is got a friend in the front seat, This is, uh, a joy ride going wrong. So what, what is the, the point of the compromise? Like how, how does that work and what was one of the reasons why that happens?
[00:18:52]Shaleen Title: So their view, the, the majority that passes regulation, their view was that, um, it was simply a safety issue and that if you [00:19:00] have cars driving around, um, with cannabis, making deliveries, that they are a target for robberies.
[00:19:07] And so as a public safety measure, if you have two people in the car, one person can stay in the car while the other one does the delivery that
[00:19:14]Bryan Fields: makes. let’s talk about educating new states so that they can learn. What is the number one thing new states can do to set their market up for success and avoid prior state’s mistakes?
[00:19:26]Shaleen Title: Hmm. Well, It’s really a matter of education. It’s, it’s really understanding the details. Um, that’s definitely why we started the cannabis regulators of color coalition so that we could talk to each other and explain these things, you know, in small groups, because, uh, it’s almost like you have to do two things at the same time.
[00:19:47] One is communicating with the public at a big picture level, you know, and, and making them feel calm and, and heard. But. That kind of talking points and messaging is not the actual work. The actual [00:20:00] work is, um, reading the other state’s regulations, looking at their data and then, um, you know, reflecting that in your own.
[00:20:08] And that takes a lot of time and effort and investment. And I think for the public that. Is in a new state, you have to be patient and yes, hold your regulators accountable, you know, ask them what they’re doing, make sure they’re doing this whole process in public, but also understand that it’s not going to happen overnight.
[00:20:26] And if you put too much pressure on them, uh, to do it quickly, then they will simply hand the market over to the larger operators, because that’s the only way to do it quickly. So
[00:20:36]Bryan Fields: St.
[00:20:37]Kellan Finney: Staying on a new state, um, with limited license or unlimited licenses, should they follow kind of a similar blueprint for implement implementing social equity in your opinion, Shalene?
[00:20:50]Shaleen Title: Um, I’m not a fan of limited licensing structures, um, or library, excuse me, one second. I’m not a fan of [00:21:00] limited licensing systems or lotterys um, I don’t think that they’re fair. I think they just create this like golden ticket system. That’s not good for, for anyone. And so instead, what I recommend is, um, have no limit on licenses in a, in a state or jurisdiction, but make sure that one entity or person can only hold so much of the market or only hold a certain number of license.
[00:21:25] That way you open up the, well, that way you open up the market to more people, more small businesses and make sure that if someone has the resources to get started early, um, they can, but once they have, for example, in Massachusetts three retail stores, um, they’re done, then you stop and you let other people get into the market.
[00:21:47]Bryan Fields: I, I think that’s so critical cuz we’ve had other conversations with larger companies and they discussed that transitioning into newer states that they would only enter in, in certain, uh, parts of the vertical because they knew if they, they came in [00:22:00] retail first, they’d be kind of tapped out in certain areas.
[00:22:02] And I thought that was so telling from a strategic standpoint of the, the fact that if you control too much of the market, how, how much you can dominate in a limited license
[00:22:10]Shaleen Title: state. Exactly. Exactly. And that’s why we see so much lobbying for limited license.
[00:22:18]Bryan Fields: Big tobacco and alcohol companies are making significant investments into cannabis and even large conglomerates are openly expressing interest into the industry.
[00:22:26] Left unchecked. The scramble from market share threatens to undermine public health and safety and UE, bold state level efforts to build an equitable cannabis marketplace. Why do you think left on check that, that this could. Were you quoting me there? I was quoting
[00:22:41]Shaleen Title: you there. I was like, yes. What a great question.
[00:22:44] And then realized you’re quoting. Okay. Um, why do I think that left unchecked? This is a problem. Yeah, because I think that we are set up to, um, we are set up [00:23:00] to create a monopoly unless we put specific guardrails in place to prevent a monopoly from happen. That sounds
[00:23:08]Bryan Fields: easier said than done. Right? I mean, I can’t imagine with all the shell structures that is currently set up that, that preventing a monopolies isn’t easily done.
[00:23:16] So what are steps that we can do today in order to prevent, let’s say five, 10 years from now, you know, company not having too, too much of a market
[00:23:23] share?
[00:23:25]Shaleen Title: Um, actually I think some parts are easy. I, I think that like, they’re sort of presented as, as difficult because. If we do them, , it’s gonna, it’s gonna hurt a lot of the companies that are like funding, legalization efforts and a lot profits.
[00:23:39] But for example, um, so the, the license, the, the limits I just described that we have in Massachusetts, where you can only have three of each type, uh, definitely enforcement takes a lot of investment and it also takes education to make sure that smaller businesses, um, understand that. [00:24:00] They should not agree to predatory relationships.
[00:24:03] Um, but that’s definitely something we could do nationally is put a limit on the number of licenses or the, the portion of the market that one entity can hold. We could also disqualify big tobacco because when you are in charge of, um, issuing a license to a cannabis business, typically you look at the people involved, you look at, um, as part of the application, you look at their criminal history and.
[00:24:29] Almost all, actually, all states have a process where if the criminal history makes you concerned that the person is not suitable to hold a cannabis license, you don’t grant them a license. It’s a, it’s a disqualification. And so we could do the same thing, um, with the same principles where if you are part of a tobacco company that is documented to have lied to the public, to have manipulated.
[00:24:55] Your product to have defrauded your customers. [00:25:00] And, um, as a result of all of that killed people, then you should not be allowed to enter the cannabis market
[00:25:10]Bryan Fields: challenge. Right. Sounds good. In theory, right? Yeah, I was, I was trying to think like, how like, is that something you think we can actually get forward and, and accomplish is that’s and I guess the second question, if, if proposed, do you think that’s something that could be accepted?
[00:25:26]Shaleen Title: Not only do I think that’s something that we could do and that would be accepted.
[00:25:30] I think it’s the only way that we are going to prevent domination by big tobacco, because they are certainly, um, openly making their moves now. I don’t think that they are very influential in, um, the political process, but so they are funding, um, cannabis events, they’re sponsoring, um, activists events.
[00:25:57] They are hiring influential cannabis, [00:26:00] activists, and leaders. And if they keep doing that unchecked, they are eventually going to be very influential in cannabis legalization. And when you. have Unlimited resources. There’s really not a lot that can be done to stop you. And so in my mind, um, the most important thing to prevent monopolization by big tobacco, which everybody should care about.
[00:26:24] Um, you know, if you’re a business that wants to work with other cannabis businesses, you don’t wanna see a monopoly. Um, if you’re a big cannabis business now, um, you will be dwarfed by big tobacco. Uh, there’s a lot of different people who should care about this. We should not. Um, legitimize big tobaccos participation in the industry.
[00:26:46] And we have to take that hard line now. And I say that again, as somebody who has been doing this for 20 years and can often see, um, what’s coming down the line a few years ahead. Um, I’m saying from that point of view, [00:27:00] that this is the most important thing to be paying attention to right now. What
[00:27:03]Bryan Fields: do we do
[00:27:03]Kellan Finney: with the companies that are already backed by big, big tobacco?
[00:27:07] Are they grandfathered in? How does that work?
[00:27:10]Shaleen Title: Well, um,
[00:27:13]Kellan Finney: you know, like Cronos is sitting on what a billion of tobacco money right now, and just in cash waiting to deploy it from a federal perspective. Um, is it something where now they’re not allowed to have licenses? I mean, I know they’ve already acquired, uh, brands that are operating in the us market, so it just becomes challenging, you know, Shalene, like how do we.
[00:27:34] Prevent them from being involved when they’re already kind of got their fingers in it. You know what I mean?
[00:27:39]Shaleen Title: Right. Well, I think that the investment so far is very small from what it would be if we don’t take these measures down the line. And so that’s why we have to stop, start now because federal legalization isn’t going to happen.
[00:27:52] Um, certainly this session and I don’t see it happening in the short term at all. And so it will take, uh, many years [00:28:00] to design. That system, it will take a lot of, um, unraveling of relationships. But again, this isn’t new marijuana regulation is new, but antitrust laws and anti monopoly laws are not new.
[00:28:17]Bryan Fields: For the everyday average consumer or operates in the industry, what can they look out for to see the signs of big tobacco making their way into cannabis?
[00:28:24] Is it the large investments like Kellen spoke about, or are there more under the radar techniques that they may be used that, you know, you can provide an example on that you’ve seen in the past. That could be an early indicator that this is happening sooner rather than later.
[00:28:38]Shaleen Title: Um, that’s a great question.
[00:28:39] Well, this is very, they’re very good at hiding their their steps. And so I think most people don’t even know about the big tobacco front organizations right now. I would say two things, actually three things. So one, if you’re a consumer, um, just pay attention to what you’re buying and where it’s coming from.
[00:28:59] That’s just a really [00:29:00] good practice in general, and it’s going to become more important in the, the coming. Um, you know, don’t rely on advertising to educate you second. Um, definitely follow parabola center. I think we’re the only organization that’s kind of got a watchdog role, uh, at the moment on, on those activities.
[00:29:18] And then third, if you call your federal representatives, they are going to care about this issue. I actually have a lot of legislators that I’ve talked to that couldn’t care less about cannabis. Definitely didn’t care about social justice. But then when I started talking about big tobacco, they were like, oh, Jewel big tobacco, Austria, what are they doing?
[00:29:39] And they really cared. Um, because for some reason, no. Well, I know why the reason is that they’ve done all of this harm to legislator’s constituents already. They care. And so that would be the third thing is just contact your legislator directly and tell them that you’re worried about. Big tobacco taking over cannabis.
[00:29:57] They probably haven’t heard that before. They’re [00:30:00] probably only hearing kind of the same story from cannabis businesses who can afford lobbyists. And so if they hear that for the first time from their constituents, it’s going to make a big impact.
[00:30:12]Bryan Fields: What is one rule or regulation you wish all states would adopt universally?
[00:30:18]Shaleen Title: Ooh. Um, I would like to hear your thoughts on that as well. Um, Well, the first one is just the, the limits on licenses, but I, I won’t belabor the point on that. I think universal labeling would be great. I think it’s kind of silly that we have so many different label requirements and I think a lot of them are not in line with.
[00:30:42] Um, best public health practices in terms of what consumers should be seeing. I think the Massachusetts labels, for example, really go overboard. They’re too long. The font is too small. You can’t find the information you’re looking for. And so if we really had, um, public health input into [00:31:00] one good label and it was consistent from state to state, that would do a lot of good for consumers.
[00:31:06] Yeah.
[00:31:07]Bryan Fields: I mean, that would make a massive difference. Right? It turns out if you go from New York to, to California, you shouldn’t have to be like, I don’t know what any of this information is. Uh, ke what do you think,
[00:31:15]Kellan Finney: uh, potency caps on flour? I think that the conversation is focused on potency right now when consumers make, uh, purchasing decisions.
[00:31:25] And I don’t think that’s the right metric, uh, to be making purchasing decisions. I mean, you go by. Edibles right. You get 10 edibles. All the edibles are fixed concentrations in each one. It’s dosed out. They figured it out with edibles, but in flour, I can go buy a gram of flour that tests at 30% or a gram flour that tests at 15%.
[00:31:47] Um, I just think that. Standardizing, those is gonna be the first step to like normalizing the industry. Right? Like I don’t go by Jack Daniels and it’s different [00:32:00] concentration every time, you know what I mean? So I think that that’s probably one, one thing that needs to happen from a, um, just kind of normalizing the industry across state lines, at least.
[00:32:09] What do you think.
[00:32:11]Bryan Fields: I think limited licenses, Shalene. I think we could keep killing this because it’s ridiculous. Right? This is the Willy Wonka golden ticket style where like, if you’ve got one of the, the assets inside, I mean, it is invaluable to opening up early in the market.
[00:32:23]Kellan Finney: I’m gonna take the other side real quick on this whole limited license conversation.
[00:32:27] Um, cuz I’ve operated in the unlimited license standpoint. And it’s an absolute nightmare, right? I worked in Washington and every company and their mother gets a license and you go into a store and it’s 7,000 different brands. It’s a straight dog fight. Right. And it says capitalistic it’s pure capitalism.
[00:32:52] Right? And you talk about like people playing dirty pool, the most dirty pool I’ve ever seen get played is in unlimited licensed [00:33:00] states. I mean, I, we have people up in Michigan that are talking about insane amounts of distillate from Canada being infused into the market. It creates a ton of challenges regulating the industry because now.
[00:33:12] This new entity in the government has to regulate 50,000 different companies that are all startups, right. Versus a limited license state And I know that it’s not like fair in terms of how limited license is limited license date are rolled out, but the other side of that coin, it does create a massive.
[00:33:31] Mess from a regulat regulation standpoint, right? Like Colorado, when they first rolled it out, we didn’t roll out unlimited licenses to get a license. It was 500 grand and all these things, and it does create that barrier to entry. But I think that the other side of the conversation isn’t addressed enough, right?
[00:33:47] Like it it’s a massive nightmare. I mean, California they’ve redone their regulatory. Group five, six times is what now it’s the DCC, right? They have two different divisions. I think it just creates a nightmare from an [00:34:00] unlimited license standpoint from regulations, shortcuts. I mean, now you’re talking companies that are manufacturing products, taking shortcuts, getting ’em on the shelves.
[00:34:08] You’re putting consumers health at risk too. Right. It’s just, it’s really, really hard to regulate that many different entities when you’re starting a whole new industry. And that’s my perspective, my soapbox I’m done with it. Um, that’s
[00:34:21]Bryan Fields: it. That’s your Shalene, if you want it. Yeah. I wanna hear it get ’em.
[00:34:27]Shaleen Title: I love talking to people who have been in Washington, cuz that’s such a, um, interesting experience.
[00:34:34] That’s so different from Massachusetts and you had, yeah, you have no. Out of state investment. Right. And you have no vertical integration in Washington. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:46]Bryan Fields: Uh, you can have, like, you can
[00:34:47]Kellan Finney: be vertical up into owning a retail license, so you can’t own retail, but you can own the supply chain all the way up.
[00:34:52] And I mean, you may not legally be able to with one person, but then it creates all these like loopholes and like, [00:35:00]
[00:35:00]Bryan Fields: DBAs and
[00:35:00]Kellan Finney: shell companies where like you have this master conglomerate of 20 different companies that are all shell company on shell company. And this company owns a cultivation license and this one owns a cultivation license and they just happen to be on the same property, but they’re different companies.
[00:35:16] So like it just forces these, these entities into playing these crazy, crazy
[00:35:20]Bryan Fields: complex
[00:35:21]Shaleen Title: games. Yeah, we have a wealth of information there that we should be using, um, when it comes to crafting a federal framework and I talk to small businesses in Washington and they tell me that exact story and, uh, It’s really helpful because, you know, in Massachusetts, like we just, we don’t have , we don’t have very many small operators at all.
[00:35:43] And in the real limited license states, like they couldn’t even be there at all, you know? And here we have a few, but they started late. But I think, um, we can learn from that, right? Like when we, like I said, when we enforce our license limits here, It did take a ton of [00:36:00] investments and it still does to unravel those conglomerate shell company, loophole situations.
[00:36:06] And then we also have to encourage people to, um, to, to basically snitch when they see it happening to regulators. Right. And I think. That is helpful because now we can see both of those models and then have a, a chance to actually craft something at the federal level that takes real life experience into account.
[00:36:28]Kellan Finney: It’s pretty beautiful that, uh, we were able to create all these different Petri dishes from, uh, an experiment standpoint, at least socially. Right?
[00:36:37]Shaleen Title: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s what frustrates me that, that’s why I started to think tank because when I look at the federal bills, Right now they don’t take the state experiences into account.
[00:36:49] Like that work just hasn’t been done. What? Like we have time to do it, but we like, we better get started now.
[00:36:54]Bryan Fields: They’re like, they’re like states are doing this. We had no idea. we’ll do our own thing. let’s [00:37:00] do, let’s do a quick, rapid fire.
[00:37:02]Shaleen Title: Wait, can I talk about the potency caps real quick? Yeah. Go for it. Yes, please.
[00:37:05] I just wanted to say, I, I really agree with you. And I think that, um, that’s actually pretty brave in my mind to say, I think that’s a pretty controversial position to say that when yeah, totally. I did a talk, um, at. A guest lecture at Stanford, like two weeks ago. And I had never gotten into an argument with the student before, but I said, I could.
[00:37:27] I said, I agree with potency caps for very much the same reason. And the student just like freaked out at me because people really think that once you start talking about potency caps, that, you know, it’s the, um, It’s the like prohibition, you know, 2.0 coming in, but that’s really not the case. If we’re going to regulate this, we have to regulate it.
[00:37:49] Well, so I just, I admire you for saying that. I think it was brave. Yeah. I mean,
[00:37:53]Kellan Finney: I I’ve drinking moonshot before and I don’t think I’ll ever do it again. You know, like , it’s not [00:38:00] fun.
[00:38:00]Bryan Fields: It’s a personal choice there, bud.
[00:38:02]Kellan Finney: Oh, you, you you’d been sipping on your moon shine a lot. .
[00:38:07]Bryan Fields: All right. I’m moving into the rapid fire.
[00:38:08] I’m excited, Chalene, true or false states should allow medical operators to switch to recreational false under the radar state. You think where the market will be bigger than most believe North Carolina true or false? A successful cannabis market is one that is opened as fast as. False legalizing cannabis federally will solve industry’s current problems of inequality, access.
[00:38:37] Ooh, false, false, false, true, or false all states should allow some version of homegirl. True, better chance of happening. First, Michigan beating Ohio state and football, or some form of banking being passed in cannabis.
[00:38:52]Shaleen Title: banking,
[00:38:53]Bryan Fields: which outside industry Titan do you think is poised to be a major threat in canvas?
[00:38:58]Shaleen Title: Outside industry [00:39:00] Titan. Yeah. Uh, can you make that multiple choice
[00:39:03]Bryan Fields: can be a big tobacco company, a big alcohol company, a big tech company. Who do you think that is not currently operating in cannabis? Are you most fearful of can come in and dominate cannabis? Uh,
[00:39:15]Shaleen Title: none of them we’re gonna hold them all off with anti laws.
[00:39:18] I love it.
[00:39:19]Bryan Fields: What is one factor statistic that would shock people working in the cannabis? Uh,
[00:39:30] people
[00:39:30]Shaleen Title: working in the cannabis industry, um, the regulators don’t know anything about cannabis. Typically. Like they come into the job, they don’t know what a tincture is. They don’t know what any of the products are and they’re just learning it on the. You accomplished, it included, excluded, sorry. It’s there’s
[00:39:51]Bryan Fields: so much going on.
[00:39:51] You accomplished a ton at the cannabis control commission in Massachusetts. What single item are you most proud of? And what do you wish you would’ve changed? [00:40:00]
[00:40:00]Shaleen Title: Um, I’m most proud of the way that those limits were enforced. Um, I really think that some companies came into Massachusetts ready to dominate the market and just left because it wasn’t worth it for them.
[00:40:14] Um, and I’m also proud of the activist community in Massachusetts. That was very influential in the way that laws got passed and they pressured, um, Certain companies to drop lawsuits. We don’t have the social equity lawsuit problem that other states have because, um, our activist community was so informed and engaged and organized.
[00:40:35] What I wish we would’ve done differently is, um, just taken more time. You know, there was a lot of. I would go as far to, as to call it abuse from the public. You know, when, when, like it was starting to be a, a year that had passed and they were like, get, get the retail store open, do whatever you have to do.
[00:40:54] And like really just, um, being, uh, hard to ignore, [00:41:00] I guess. But I wish that we would have ignored them and just built the. program that most of the voters wanted to see, you know, no matter how long it took, because here we are five years later, you know, nobody would’ve noticed, nobody would remember now, you know, if it took an additional year and we had a ton of small businesses and, and social consumption and, um, just something that really respected the dignity of cannabis consumers, I wish we would’ve taken our time and done that.
[00:41:31]Bryan Fields: Before I, I was researching you. I was very upset that New York has taken so long. And after kind of reading some of the information you’ve put out, I’ve slightly had a different approach and feel a little more comfortable that we are taking our time and hope and hope that we actually get it right. Uh, versus just rushing through and getting started.
[00:41:48] So I thank you for that. That’s great to hear 20 years from now, we will look back and say that was barbaric. I can’t believe we did that in cannabis. What is that? [00:42:00]
[00:42:00]Shaleen Title: Fired people for using cannabis,
[00:42:02]Bryan Fields: barbaric, barbaric, since you’ve been in the Canita industry, what has been the biggest misconception
[00:42:11]Shaleen Title: that all cannabis users are the same and that they’re all heavy users.
[00:42:18]Bryan Fields: Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in the cannabinoid space in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would it
[00:42:26]Shaleen Title: be? We have the power and don’t look at other industries or lobbyists or, um, subjects and try to learn from them because we are very much our own movement.
[00:42:40] Um, we’ve been very successful just listening to the people and we gotta keep doing that.
[00:42:45]Bryan Fields: All right. Prediction time. Tell are you with us? Oh, I’m here. Oh, beautiful. All right. You came in time for the prediction. All right. Shalene. Oh, thank goodness. Some in the traditional market have expressed they don’t receive opportunities to contribute.[00:43:00]
[00:43:00] What can the traditional market do to make itself better heard by policymakers?
[00:43:06]Shaleen Title: So I would say the same advice for anybody that wants to be heard by policymakers, which is, um, Create a platform for yourself so that they have to take you seriously. And that’s not hard. That’s just getting a lot of very organized and engaged people together, um, who care about something, making sure you’re all speaking in a.
[00:43:30] Most the most uni unified voice as possible. And then talk to the press, get on social media and then talk to the regulators with specifics, you know, the two or three points that you want. Don’t be abusive to the regulators. Just be nice, be honest, be authentic and ask for those two or three things.
[00:43:49] That’ll get you heard
[00:43:50]Bryan Fields: Kelly. I mean, I,
[00:43:57] that’s not gonna work.[00:44:00]
[00:44:03] All right. I don’t think we have Kevin, so I will, we’ll go for. I, I agree Shaline with what you’re saying, and I would take it one step further. I, I would say that the people who want their voices to be heard need to show their fakes. I think one of the biggest things that I’ve heard from some of them is that they’re fearful of, of coming forward and expressing their interests because they’re fearful of repercussions for, for their previous history operating in the space.
[00:44:28] And I would say that it’s really hard to. Guidance from someone, even if they’re the most informed on decision from, uh, a person who has, let’s say a Twitter, a as their profile photo, I think, you know, revealing yourself and coming forward and standing behind what you’ve done as an individual in the space.
[00:44:43] I think you need to have a, a, a face to the name. And I think that provides credibility. So I would say feeling more comfortable, kind of rising to the forefront and operating, uh, above ground and allowing, you know, people to see what you have accomplished, which means maybe being vulnerable, but also more importantly, being more [00:45:00] transparent.
[00:45:02]Shaleen Title: I think that’s right. Yeah. There’s definitely special considerations if you’re in the legacy market and I’m not going to, um, I’m not going to tell someone if you are uncomfortable, making yourself visible, you know, that that’s not valid, but as far as how to be the most effective typically, yes, the more transparent you are and the more you use your real name and your authentic, the more effective you’re going to be in policy.
[00:45:27]Bryan Fields: I can’t imagine taking, uh, information from cannabis user 7 25 is like, all right, well, how, how will I reach you? Cannabis user 7 25. I can’t imagine that’s the most helpful. Kevin, are you here to weigh in? I am here. Can you hear me? Yeah. You wanna go for it? Uh,
[00:45:44]Kellan Finney: yeah, I was gonna say, I just agree with what Shaline was saying as far as, uh, being heard.
[00:45:49] And I think the thing that, uh, the strategy that
[00:45:52]Shaleen Title: sticks out in my mind as far as. Um,
[00:45:56]Kellan Finney: getting more attention is the same strategy [00:46:00] that was implemented, like with the civil rights movement. I think a lot of people are very
[00:46:03]Shaleen Title: angry with how the
[00:46:05]Kellan Finney: industry’s been treated by regulators over the last hundred years.
[00:46:09] But I don’t think like responding in an aggressive manner, um, is the right way to approach it. I think
[00:46:15]Shaleen Title: it’s like, uh, we just gotta continue to take baby steps and kind
[00:46:20]Kellan Finney: of play the nice guy card, um, until it works, if you will,
[00:46:24]Bryan Fields: you. It’s gonna take time. I think that there’s a lot that needs to be done. And if it’s not done the right way, like Shalene said, if we rush to open the market speed is not our friend there, because like you were saying, it’s hard to walk back.
[00:46:37] It’s hard to add additional regulations on top of it’s better to start a little more regulated and then lightly remove them as you go. At least from just a safety and efficacy standpoint in order to make sure that we’re not jeopardizing, you know, consumer health and, and hurting an industry that already has massive stigmas against the.
[00:46:54]Shaleen Title: Well, let me just clarify though. I’m not saying that, um, you have to be civil all the time, you know, [00:47:00] or, or take baby steps necessarily. You should be asking for whatever bold proposals you wanna see, you know, ask for them. But the key is to do it in a way that’s going to build your power and yeah, being abusive is not going to get you power, but what will build your power is if you are.
[00:47:18] Building a large coalition. And you’re specific in what you ask for, and you’re always offering a solution, right? Like you you’re right. You just said, you know, a lot of people are angry, um, but just, you know, channeling your anger. Isn’t going to get you any results. If you take your anger and you take your indignation and you turn it into the actual solutions that you wanna see and you ask for them, that’s when you’re gonna get.
[00:47:44]Bryan Fields: Awesome. So Shalene for our listeners, they wanna learn more. They want to get in touch, where can they find ya?
[00:47:49]Shaleen Title: So I’m very active on Twitter, just at Shalene title. And then you can find parabola center on Twitter and Instagram. If you go to parabola center.com, you can find [00:48:00] all of our reports and model bills and tools.
[00:48:03] Those are all free for everybody.
[00:48:05]Bryan Fields: Awesome. We will link all those up in the show notes. Thanks so much for taking the time. This was really fun. [00:48:10]Shaleen Title: It was fun. Thanks for having me. Thank.
