Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

In this episode, Bryan Fields (Twitter: @bryanfields24) and Kellan Finney ((Twitter: @Kellan_Finney) sit down with Fabian Monaco (Twitter: @FabianMonaco7), the CEO of Gage Cannabis, to discuss:

  • How the Gage & Cookies partnership came together
  • How to understand trends and insights in dispensaries
  • How Fabian has weighed growth vs optimization when scaling Gage
  • How Gage evaluates entrances to new markets
  • Which east coast markets they’re considering
  • The importance of relationships with vendors in the supply chain
  • Gage’s future product roadmap
  • Which product category will be the biggest by sales in 10 years
  • One of the most sought after markets in Pennsylvania and why MSOs are flocking there

Find Fabian at:


Facebook: @gageusa

Insta: @gagecannabis

Twitter: @gagecannabisco

[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: [00:00:00] This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents.

[00:00:10] Bryan Fields: [00:00:10] What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime as always have gotten my right-hand man Kellen Spinney here with me. And this week we’ve got a very special guests, baby and Monica CEO of one of the hottest cannabis companies out there.

[00:00:22] Gage cannabis, Fabian. Thanks for taking the time. How are you doing today?

[00:00:25] Fabian Monaco: Yeah, thanks a lot for having me on and doing great. Appreciate it.

[00:00:29] Bryan Fields: [00:00:29] So I think before we dive in, I’d love for our listeners to kind of get a little bit about your background and how you got into the game.

[00:00:35] Fabian Monaco: [00:00:35] For sure. I used to be on the investment banking side of things.

[00:00:38] I had joined a team that just brought tweet public. They had brought Tweed, which is obviously now canopy growth public, but five or six months before I joined, I was really lucky. I got to work on a lot of the firsts of the industry. You know, the first acquisition in the industry where a Tweed Bob bedroom can.

[00:00:53]The first IPO, the first a hundred million dollar financing. So I was really, really blessed with those opportunities. And then it kind of just led me [00:01:00] more on the merchant banking side of things. And we started gage a little over three and a half years ago with two of the pretty much the best operators.

[00:01:08] At least I saw I’ve been to. I can’t even, I can’t even remember how many cultivation assets that I’ve tutored and visited. And just was really impressed with these two operators. The two main co-founders engaged and you know, really, really took a liking to them and their thought process and their connection to the cannabis culture.

[00:01:26] And yeah, like I said, started at three and a half years ago and here we are today. Yeah. And I’m

[00:01:30] Bryan Fields: [00:01:30] excited to kind of dive into that and some of the concepts and the ideas that gates has brought to market and some of the amazing opportunities that you’ve done. So before we dive in, let’s start with some of the hardest questions.

[00:01:40] What is your go-to meal after consuming cannabinoids?

[00:01:44] Fabian Monaco: [00:01:44] I probably say a burger, so like I, you know, my background’s Italian, so I do love Italian food, but I, I would say hands down a good burger is this is really something I enjoy. Nice cheeseburger. You should go to the

[00:01:56] Kellan Fineny: [00:01:56] cheeseburger place in and out

[00:01:58] Fabian Monaco: [00:01:58] in and out is great.

[00:02:00] [00:02:00] I honestly, I try so many all the time. And really don’t have like one particular favorite, but in and out is most definitely that much the print at the bottom of our office, actually in Troy, Michigan, really like shake shack as well. Sauces, fire,

[00:02:14] Bryan Fields: [00:02:14] let’s dive into some of the questions.

[00:02:15] Fabian Monaco: [00:02:15] Bait. Can you share a little

[00:02:17] Bryan Fields: [00:02:17] bit about the backstory and the value they play in the industry, and then from there, take us into the cookies and the value they place.

[00:02:24] Fabian Monaco: [00:02:24] Yeah, so, so from a gauge standpoint, you know, we, we really wanted to focus on our brand right off the bat, focused on flour to start as well. You know, flowers, the queen of the industry still probably accounts for close to 60% of our sales right now in this quarter. And something we really put a lot of time and effort into, it’s not just about, you know, growing a good product.

[00:02:43] We also put a lot, a lot of effort and time and see the post production process. And I think that was what really helped us elevate the brand really quickly, that kind of focus on flower, that kind of category of the value chain of the industry. Again, really allowed us to jump to the [00:03:00] forefront of branding and Michigan.

[00:03:01] Our partnership with cookies, you know, that you brought up an illustrious brand. I, you know, out of San Francisco, California, we have a great relationship with them. They’re they’re the Nike of the space or the red bull, the space, whatever you want to call it, the Coca Cola space we’ve learned so much from them.

[00:03:15] It’s really also helped us elevate our brand to a, you know, quasi similar level in Michigan. And for us. You know, just focusing on the brand to start. And we saw a lot of our, you know, the majority of our product through our retail channels as well. You see a lot of the, MSOC kind of take on a more wholesale strategy, which again, I’m not trying to knock that strategy, but for us, we really wanted to control the narrative, control how our consumer was, you know, receiving the product, educate the consumer, how great our product is.

[00:03:43]And that’s really been beneficial for not only expanding the gage brand in Michigan, but also the cookies brand. Yeah, the branding on both

[00:03:50] Bryan Fields: [00:03:50] of your sides is incredible. So let’s talk about that partnership. How did the origin of that relationship start? And then was that a key decision when going forward

[00:03:59] Fabian Monaco: [00:03:59] with gage?

[00:04:00] [00:03:59] Yeah, so I think, you know, the two, co-founders had a good relationship with burner. I think they’ve been talking to him for, you know, probably a good solid four or five years. Finally minted a relationship officially about two years ago, signed a five-year exclusive agreement with the cookies brand for processing.

[00:04:15] Cultivation and retail. So really you know, that’s how it all started. They developed the relation being cookie has been around for, for many years, many years, you know, kind of nurture that relationship, show them who we were, show them the type of quality that we, we would bring to their brand as well, because it’s so important, especially for brands when you’re picking a partner, even for us, when we pick our contract manufacturing partners that we have in Michigan, we go through a painstaking process.

[00:04:40] We make sure that those partners are top notch is the last thing you want to do. You spend so much time effort, blood, sweat, and tears into a brand, and then you kind of give it to someone else and they tarnish it for you. So I think that, you know, we really developed or at least cookies developed that comfort with us as a team, as a company.

[00:04:57] Say, Hey, you know, we were their first actually [00:05:00] we were their first partner outside of California. They obviously have a whole variety of partners now across the U S but two years ago, we were the first one. We were the first ones to open a cookie store outside of California as well. So there’s a lot of trust involved there, and I think we’ve repaid that trust Quite a bit by being, you know, one of their best operators

[00:05:17] Bryan Fields: [00:05:17] agree with that.

[00:05:17] So let’s kind of dive into the day to day and understand industry is absolutely exploding. So can you take us through what a normal day to day is like for you and how you kind of keep up to date on all the trends and such a hyper-growth

[00:05:29] Fabian Monaco: [00:05:29] industry? Yeah. Look, I mean, day to day is, is pretty wild these days, especially, you know, we’ve been publicly traded now for almost two months.

[00:05:36] I’m actually a little over two months now, you know, a lot of the focus is on capital markets initiatives. You know, the two co-founders are really heavy on the operational side of things and because the industry is moving so fast. You just always gotta be at the forefront, you know, following other brands, seeing what they’re doing, what products they’re introducing, you know, what kind of flavors of flower your competition is coming up with?

[00:05:55] Funny enough, you know, keeping a pulse in the kind of culture of cannabis as well, you [00:06:00] know, like what are people enjoying? What are they looking for these days? Are they liking gelato strains? Okay. If they like gelato strains and those are popular, let’s have a bunch of more of those on our shelves or let’s start, you know, crossing some of our previous gelato strains.

[00:06:11] Together to create a, you know, kind of a new strand and a new flavor for our consumers to have. So it’s really multifaceted and for us, as well as we’re expanding so quickly, you know, move from two cultivation facilities to now eight, you know, soon to be nine that are in operations that are growing, engaging cookies, brand new product, or even five retail locations at the end of last year to now, you know, nine as well.

[00:06:33] And hoping to move that to close to 20. By the end of this year, it’s really just a whirlwind. We’re working on so many opportunities and so many things. And then, you know, I spend a lot of time to, like I said earlier, following other brands, especially on social media, I think social media is so important these days to really get your brand out there.

[00:06:49] We’re part of a great network, obviously with burner, Rick Ross, and a couple of the other partners of cookies. And we’re in that kind of ecosystem, but following some of the other brands, seeing, you know, what kind of cool packaging they’re [00:07:00] coming out with, how they’re presenting, you know, their product.

[00:07:02] And looking for, you know, new product categories to bring to the Michigan market as well. Really

[00:07:06] Bryan Fields: [00:07:06] well said. So Kellen from your side, how do you stay upstate and all the trends and kind of expand on some of the areas that Fabian mentioned? No,

[00:07:13] Kellan Fineny: [00:07:13] and I think that staying up on all the trends is so important.

[00:07:17] I mean, this industry changes so quickly. The only way I’ve been able to do it is just by networking, talking to people and. Actively going to dispensary’s different ones, as much as you can. I mean, I’m lucky enough to be on Colorado, a little different than New York. O’Bryan soon though, right soon. And so, you know, it’s like going to the liquor store these days in Colorado, it’s been around for a while, you know, and I always go in and talk to the budtenders.

[00:07:42] I mean, it’s wild, how much power those people have behind the calendar in terms of pushing product and, and understanding what kind of is trending this way. And that way it’d be. The other thing that I find so interesting is kind of that dynamic between, and you mentioned this baby and in terms of like gelato strain selling and trying to [00:08:00] increase that as a product that you can put on the shelves.

[00:08:03] I mean, that balance has to be so challenging because. Say it’s June and someone wants something that’s more attractive for the summer, like a mango or something, right. In terms of a strain and you react to that. But by the time that it takes a while to grow flower, by the time you can increase inventory in that specific strain, it could be.

[00:08:24] October and the consumer’s preference could completely change to, I don’t know, like a pumpkin spice or something. Right. Like, and so balance has gotta be so challenging. I mean, how do you guys tackle that in all the different states? Is it kind of like. Each state operates as its own entity, or do you guys kind of have like a, an overarching strategy where you’re like, okay, across the west coast, we’re going to kind of focus on these main strains.

[00:08:51] Could you kind of describe that, that challenge or that obstacle

[00:08:54] Fabian Monaco: [00:08:54] for us right now? We’re, we’re still a single state operators. So we don’t have those challenges per se. [00:09:00] We’re solely in Michigan, the brand’s available in Canada as well. I would say, you know, to your point again, it’s, it’s, it’s not something where Hey, Yeah, everyone’s really liking this type of strain or these types of, you know, flavors.

[00:09:13] Let’s all of a sudden throw something into production and next week we’re going get some fruits from our labor. Right. It, it, it’s more of a long process, obviously, especially when you’re growing cannabis from a, from seed the smoke. So again, it just, again, trying to stay well connected to the cannabis culture you know, talking to a variety of operators as well, even sometimes competitors, you know, it’s a very inclusive industry.

[00:09:33] I still find. And yes, you know, Yeah, you do have fierce competitors, but also it’s pretty much a family and you learn a lot from your competition as well. So I think also, you know, places like Colorado, especially also California, they kind of help drive the trends. So stuff you see in California kind of comes a little bit, you know, later on in, in some of the other states.

[00:09:57] And so we’re always, you know, watching what [00:10:00] cookies is doing in California. What’s popular there. Okay. Blunts are pocket. Okay. Wow. So. Sponsored really, really doing well. A lot of the cookie stores in Cali, let’s, let’s put a plan in place because we think we’ll do equally as well in place like Michigan.

[00:10:11] So, you know, that’s a product category that we hope to have introduced over the next couple of months here. And so it’s just things like that. Right. Really looking to the leader, being California, or even places like Colorado, where it’s a little bit more mature looking at those trends because you seem to have a little bit of a lag in some of the other states, especially in Michigan.

[00:10:31] Not a crazy leg, but again, enough time to, to really position yourself properly. This is my favorite

[00:10:36] question, because I think about this constantly. And from someone in your position, you were the ideal person, maybe. How do you balance kind of growing the organization in one state or even expanding to other states as well as optimizing what you’re currently doing?

[00:10:51] Bryan Fields: [00:10:51] How do you balance that relationship?

[00:10:53] Fabian Monaco: [00:10:53] It’s not easy. It’s not easy at all. Right. I’d say that’s the most, let’s call it difficult. Part of the [00:11:00] industry. We’ve had fluctuations in terms of access to capital for quite a few years. Now, I would say maybe in 2018 things are going pretty well. The 19 hint went through a little bit of a downturn first couple of months of 2020 by, you know, those are pretty scary as well.

[00:11:16]Then now we’ve had a little bit of a resurgence, especially into the fall late fall winter, and obviously earlier on in the year where, you know, cannabis was flying high, obviously on the back of potential regulation. So it’s hard because you’re trying to balance out your growth with also your access to capital.

[00:11:32] You know, whether you should be refining things within your own current operation in order to boost profitability boost margins. Or whether, you know, it should be focused on growth market share, etc Right. So it’s a fine balance. It’s something that you got to really keep your pulse on, especially from a, from a funding standpoint, you know, we’re well, capitalized really didn’t take on any crazy debt or, you know, sale leaseback transactions in a material way to potentially, you know, hurt the company in the future with, you know, tough payment obligations.

[00:11:58] So. Again, [00:12:00] we’ve positioned ourselves well, but it’s always something we keep our pulse on just to see, okay, what’s the access to capital looking like these days, how is the market performing? How’s their stock performing, you know, will we have the opportunity to access further captial or, you know, should we focus on again, refining our current operations once, you know, capital starts to open up again, then we’ll quickly change the focusing on growth.

[00:12:21] And again, it’s not as easy as changing that on the dime, but. It’s something that’s it’s, it’s really a fine balance. At the end of the day, we set the challenge

[00:12:29] Bryan Fields: [00:12:29] to have that dynamic flexibility in your conversations with your leadership team in your day to day with kind of positioning the team saying, Hey, you know, for the next couple of weeks, we’re going to focus here.

[00:12:37] And then for example, legislation start to discuss are changing and then there’s these new opportunities or states come online. So that balance must be really, really finite. And it must change kind of rapidly.

[00:12:49] Fabian Monaco: [00:12:49] Yeah, no, it, it does. Right. And it can be frustrating too, right? Because our organization where we’re approaching, I think 400 employees now, And obviously people wants want direction, right?

[00:12:59] And so [00:13:00] sometimes if you’re kind of flip-flopping too much or, you know, not staying focused on the grand plan, it can be frustrating. Right. And it’s something we try to avoid. It’s something where we try to stay true to our plan, talk, seeing how we’re going to progress over the next couple of months. And all of us have, you know, constant interaction with each other as a leadership, you know, amongst the leadership team and the founders to ensure that we’re making the best decisions for, for, for the company.

[00:13:24] But again, That’s not always as easy because at times you gotta make tough decisions to say, Hey, I know we’re going down this path, guys. I know you’ve been working really, really hard, but we’re going to have to transition quickly here. And sometimes, you know, it’s met with disappointment, but you know, people understand.

[00:13:37] And I think we’ve been around now for a couple of years, not as long as some of the MSO is, but we’re approaching, you know, two years of operation here over the next couple of months. And I think, you know, more and more. Just the culture, you know, it starts to get ingrained and people recognize, Hey, look, this is an exciting industry.

[00:13:52] It’s really, really fun, but it’s also a challenging one. And once you kind of accept the fact that it’s going to be challenging, It makes it so much better. Basically, if you get [00:14:00] worked up too much with the small little challenges that arise on a daily basis in this industry, it can really kill you. Yeah.

[00:14:05] All right. That’s perfectly said,

[00:14:07] Bryan Fields: [00:14:07] but let’s, let’s talk about one of those challenge I read in one of your investment reports that one of the goals of gage is to bring 90% of Michigan’s population within 30 minute radius. As well as opening one store every month. Is that still the plan? Can you update on us on that and how actually challenging is that to accomplish in an industry that is looking for people miss the global pandemic that thankfully we’re on the backend as well as in a really competitive landscape?

[00:14:36] Fabian Monaco: [00:14:36] Yeah, no, look, it’s a tough goal, no doubts and aggressive goal, but one that we think we can achieve by the end of the year right now with a, with a portfolio of retail that we have. Can reach, you know, 90 plus percent of the population within a one hour’s drive really gonna want to drive that down to close to 20 locations by the end of the year, and having, you know, those 20 locations reach 90 plus percent of the population within a quick.

[00:14:58]You know, 20 to 30 minute drive, [00:15:00] I think, you know, that that last part is important because in Michigan you have dynamic delivery as well. So it really gives you the opportunity to have a pretty robust delivery program. We haven’t introduced something like that just yet. We only have about one or two cars in our, in our portfolio right now that the delivery haven’t really advertised that much, but just really starting that program and, and trying to figure out what’s the best way to tackle the delivery program in Michigan.

[00:15:22] And so we’ll be rolling that out in Q3. And you know, if we can keep up with the expansion of our retail, you know, we don’t have to be someone like a Trulieve to open, you know, 80 plus stores in, in, in Florida. I’ve obviously Florida’s what two and a half size, two and a half times, sorry, the size of, of Michigan, maybe even three times nowadays.

[00:15:40]But you know, with that being said, we don’t need to open up that many locations in order to achieve, you know, same, same store grow sale growth in sales. And so, you know, that’s a pretty important factor for us and we’ve really tried to. No scatter our retail down to a science to say, Hey. You know, once we’ve established, you know, a good solid 20 to 30 locations, which we think is the sweet [00:16:00] spot in Michigan, let’s make sure we have them properly placed so that we can reach the majority of the population within equip drive and vice versa.

[00:16:07] The majority of the population can actually come to our dispensary if they choose. Within a quick drive as well. It only dream of being able to

[00:16:13] Bryan Fields: [00:16:13] drive to an hour, go get adult use. But soon, soon I have to just him soon enough. Yeah. Now it’s like Boston, which is a hike. Sometimes it’s

[00:16:23] Fabian Monaco: [00:16:23] worth it though. Right?

[00:16:25] The east coast,

[00:16:26] Bryan Fields: [00:16:26] largely untapped strategically. There’s numerous areas to plants, the gage flat. How do you evaluate each states strategically from a capital standpoint? And how do you know it’s worthwhile to say, go to Maryland or to try to get into New Jersey? Can you take us through how you evaluate new markets and how to think about entering those spaces?

[00:16:47] Fabian Monaco: [00:16:47] Well, it’s education first off, right? The, you know, the first thing we really, really try to, you know, not be confident with what we’ve done in Michigan or what we’ve done with the brand in Michigan. We truly try to educate ourselves. And so we’ve been doing that over the past couple of [00:17:00] months. I think people look at the licensing dynamic, taking a look at the players who the competition is, you know, what makes them special?

[00:17:06] What kind of quality that’s, you know, available within the various markets and in some markets, you know, surprisingly at least us it’s shocking that you know, the quality that they have relative to Michigan, Michigan, you have these phenomenal operators that basically have been in business since the 2008.

[00:17:23] Caregiver program. And with that, you know, you have good competition. So for us, it’s encouraging mainly because a. No we’re doing quite well in a quasi competitive market. Maybe not as competitive as a place like California or Colorado, but again, pretty competitive market. And then when we look to other states again, it’s, you know, we try to see how, how can we perform, you know, go into dispensary to take a look, see how they’re being run.

[00:17:45] How they’re performing based on how they’re being run to say to ourselves, okay. Like this is a really, really well-run dispenser. You know, we, we may not be able to do much better than this or the complete opposite where it’s like, wow, like this dispensary is doing exceptionally well. And [00:18:00] we know we can do two times better here.

[00:18:02]Cause they’re doing this, this and this not necessarily wrong, but we would change, you know, this, this and this. So these are the types of things that we look at to see, like what’s our best bang for our buck from a shareholder standpoint, you know, we really want to be prudent with shareholder capital.

[00:18:14] We have been for so long. And, you know, our first acquisition or the, you know, the first move we have into another state, we want to make sure it’s the right one. And again, back to my first point, just education, really educating ourselves so we can make the best decision possible. You have a

[00:18:29] Bryan Fields: [00:18:29] team of individuals or an, or a specific individual that goes and researches those opportunities to kind of provide like a scoring matrix for, for you and your leadership team on making those decisions.

[00:18:39] Can you kind of shed some light on how that thought process

[00:18:42] Fabian Monaco: [00:18:42] works? No, I’d say that, you know, the leadership team is pretty hands-on, you know, so the two, the two founders they’re really, really hands-on, they’re the kind of boots on the ground that are doing most of the the diligence work from an operational standpoint.

[00:18:53] And, and from a market standpoint, obviously we have a bunch of finance geeks, so let’s call them and lawyers on our team. And [00:19:00] they’re going to get really mad that I called them finance case, but a bunch of guys on our team to really, you know, obviously drill down into whether it makes sense from a financial standpoint.

[00:19:07] And obviously from a legal standpoint, we take that counsel. Very seriously to say, Hey, what is the path of least resistance to, you know, getting a deal done in state X or state Y. And so this is the type of analysis we do. You know, we do still have a decent amount of confidence in how we operate. It’s not going to be.

[00:19:24] Rocket science for us, right? Sure. There’ll be a couple of tweaks to the rules in each and every respective state, but we know how to grow cannabis. We know how to process cannabis and we know how to run retail. Yes. Again, there’ll be quasi different rules in each and every state, but we’re pretty confident that we can come into a state and at least kind of hit the ground running.

[00:19:40] No, and dive

[00:19:41] Bryan Fields: [00:19:41] into that side, right from the east coast standpoint, what Fabian was saying about making the decisions and kind of weighing the pros and cons. When you’re here on the east coast, obviously it’s very different in California and Colorado. So how would you go about that approach as well?

[00:19:53] Kellan Fineny: [00:19:53] And east coast is going to be, I think, a completely different beast to tackle than the west coast.

[00:19:58] I think just looking [00:20:00] at how a lot of the high value markets are structured, their license process. It’s, it’s a limited license kind of situation, right? Like New York and Florida. These are your high density population centers. Right. And so.

[00:20:14] Fabian Monaco: [00:20:14] It’s going to

[00:20:15] Kellan Fineny: [00:20:15] be, it’s going to require a lot more capital to kind of.

[00:20:18] Own a square if you will, on the east coast. And so I agree with Fabian and in terms of it’s, you have to have your executive team and the people that are going to be making those decisions. They have to go see it for themselves. They have to be boots on the ground. I mean, these kinds of decisions are going to cost a ton of capital to enter these high density markets from a population perspective.

[00:20:41] And in order to make sure that you’re making the best decision you possibly can. You’re going to need to go experience it and get your hands on exposure to those markets and see what the medical space has been doing and kind of make friends with that whole community there as well, because a lot of it has to do with the budtenders once [00:21:00] the whole thing gets up and going and kind of what products they push and kind of the culture of what’s being talked about.

[00:21:05] And so. It’s going to be a lot more challenging than kind of the west coast. And like, for instance, like Washington, right? State of Washington, if you will they gave out anyone that wanted a license could go get a license and you just saw so many brands that as a consumer, when you enter the dispensary.

[00:21:22] Three four years ago, even nowadays it’s there’s 2,500 different products on the shelf. Like how are you supposed to get brand recognition if you’re in a marketplace like that? But the barrier to entry was a lot simpler versus the east coast. There’s going to be significantly less brands on the shelf.

[00:21:40] So you’re going to have a higher potential to generate that brand awareness. Right. But they know that, so it’s going to cost more money. So I just think that strategically the amount of due diligence that’s going to be required to enter the east coast, I think is astronomically higher than something that should be approached on the west coast.

[00:21:59] At least from [00:22:00] my perspective.

[00:22:01] Fabian Monaco: [00:22:01] And relationship has to matter

[00:22:03] Bryan Fields: [00:22:03] in these limited licensed states, because if you have limited amount of opportunities, the relationship has to be Keith knowing, okay, this person’s interested in selling, but they’ve been approached by Cresco then have been approached by truly so paving it from that standpoint, boots on the ground.

[00:22:17] She has to be critical because you’re forming those relationships with these, these opportunities that might be limited in their

[00:22:23] Fabian Monaco: [00:22:23] opportunities for growth. Oh, no, it makes an incredible difference. I mean, having, having, even again, just the, the, the relationships with other producers you know, for us, we’re, we’re an inclusive brand.

[00:22:36] We don’t just have gage branded or cookies, brand new product within our store have a whole variety of brands. And so, you know, in, in, in a very, you know, tight market, it’s, it’s similar to how you said, you know, it’s going to be important to actually, you know, build these relationships in order to ensure you have supply for your stores.

[00:22:54] And so, you know, that’s pretty key as well because the last thing, and especially in a tight supply market, you don’t want to open a store and have [00:23:00] absolutely no product. So, no, it

[00:23:01] Kellan Fineny: [00:23:01] sounds like a complete disaster. So I had random thought has been kind of puzzling me recently and I think the best. Way to ask.

[00:23:09] It is so with Pennsylvania, it’s still a medical market. And all of a sudden, randomly two, three months ago, it got really, really hot from an acquisition standpoint. Right. You saw all these big MSLs coming in there. And, and me and Brian were talking to each other and we’re like, do they just know something that we don’t?

[00:23:26] Or is it like one of the big players was like, oh, I have a friend in Pennsylvania. Let’s go there. And then everyone else just kind of plays, follow the leader. Do you have any insights in kind of how some of these. Random markets, all of a sudden just become so hot from an MSO perspective.

[00:23:41]Fabian Monaco: [00:23:41] I think, you know, first off the, the, the opportunities are a little bit limited from a retail standpoint there.

[00:23:47] And then, you know, secondly, everyone has seen a 16 locations that they can open. I think that’s the limit in Pennsylvania. And so you want to make sure those 16 are as best as possible, right? So there was a little bit of a rush to go and get [00:24:00] those, you know, the best. The best, you know, located dispensers in that state.

[00:24:04] I think also to be totally honest with UK, if you look at the dynamic of Pennsylvania and look at the consumption habits, I’d say like similar to Michigan, you’re seeing what Michigan is doing. When it went from, you know a medical program to now an adult use program. And I think, you know, from their perspective, they’re looking at that and saying, okay, Michigan’s approaching a $2 billion market right behind Colorado and California, obviously never going to catch California, but you know, Pennsylvania very much so has the ability to be just as big, if they can get to adult use, that’s a big IF you know, I think if you kind of remain at, you know, simply medical only.

[00:24:37] Yeah, it’s gone really, really well for a place like Florida, but, you know, they have close to what, 25 to 30 million people, these days, Pennsylvania, a little bit more than Michigan. I think it’s, you know, 12 or 13 million there. It’s pretty key to make sure that that turns into adult use in my humble opinion, to really take advantage of some of the prices they’ve been paying for, for her dispensary for a single dispenser, let’s say a pack of three dispensary’s.

[00:24:58] So yeah, I think that’s, that’s [00:25:00] overall what people are thinking, or at least maybe at least that’s my thought process on that. You’re looking at Michigan, they’re seeing, you know, similar demographics, similar progression, you know, same with places like Maryland, where it’s medical potential to go to rec and you know what that inflection point will bring.

[00:25:15] And if you are limited in the amount of locations you can have. Hey, you know, you want to make sure you get the best top-notch locations possible because you really want to make those 16 as best and as big as you can.

[00:25:26] Kellan Fineny: [00:25:26] That makes a lot of sense, actually. Thank you. I was, I didn’t even consider that. So that’s good insight there for sure.

[00:25:31] And I think I was checking headset data last week and I think Michigan is bigger than Colorado. Now. I think they did more sales in April or in may than Colorado did so. Oh,

[00:25:43] Fabian Monaco: [00:25:43] right on. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that. Yeah, I know we’re still not, I know headset has data, but sometimes it differs slightly to what we have from the state, usually MRA and Michigan posts post those numbers on a monthly basis.

[00:25:56]So those should be coming out soon. I’ll be eager to see how they do. Yeah, I

[00:25:59] Kellan Fineny: [00:25:59] think [00:26:00] headset does do a little kind of predictive analysis based on past sales if I remember correctly. So

[00:26:08] Fabian Monaco: [00:26:08] those numbers are, yeah. Yeah. That’d be a pretty big jump though. I mean, we’re, I think Colorado’s in and around close to 200 now, in terms of monthly sales,

[00:26:16] Kellan Fineny: [00:26:16] 1 49 in Michigan, was that like 1 54?

[00:26:19]I couldn’t. Yeah, they, they definitely overtook it. So I was like, oh no, but it makes sense because the, I mean, there’s like twice the population in Michigan than there is in Colorado. So it’s only

[00:26:30] Fabian Monaco: [00:26:30] my opinion. Totally,

[00:26:31] Bryan Fields: [00:26:31] totally. Is a question about that. Do you think that has to do with the fact that Colorado has been online a lot longer and the consumers are kind of a little more comfortable where in Michigan, the bus is still really hot and people are still, I think kind of curious with the term that I heard thrown around a lot yesterday.

[00:26:46] Do you think that has to plan to that?

[00:26:49] Fabian Monaco: [00:26:49] I honestly, I think it just, just, just, you know what counts said before, it’s mainly population it’s mainly black escalation, right? I think you have super strong consumption habits in Colorado and equally, equally [00:27:00] as high on a per capita basis in Michigan. And I’ve seen Michigan really does enjoy their cannabis, but it really comes down to two population, which is not always the determining factor.

[00:27:09] But I think when you compare two states that again, have strong consumption habits from a, from a cannabis standpoint. The larger population is going to win. It makes sense. So gage had done

[00:27:19] Bryan Fields: [00:27:19] a terrific job with their capital light strategy. Can you take us through what the future product roadmap looks like?

[00:27:26] So

[00:27:26] Fabian Monaco: [00:27:26] I think you’ll still see a huge focus from us on flour. As I mentioned earlier on this, on this podcast, you know, there’s there’s just still a strong demand for flower, especially in a place like Michigan. And we see it across, across north America. Flowers queen it’s a queen of the categories.

[00:27:40] When you include pre-rolls it’s soundly for the majority of sales, a counselor, the majority of our sales, I think, you know, in Q2, we’ll probably see flour be, you know, 60 to 65% of our sales went, including, you know, pre-rolls so overall you know, that will continue to remain our focus with our expansion, you know, with our contract manufacturers as mentioned the capital light model and [00:28:00] basically bringing our own product to our shelves, agent cookies, brand and product, sorry, from a flour standpoint on our shelves for.

[00:28:06] Essentially zero costs us. You know, we don’t pay for the cap X to these facilities. We don’t pay for the OPEX. They pay for our packaging or testing and our secure transporting and Michigan. It’s a great way to expand, you know, your flavor offering as well. Right now, we’ve jumped to, you know, in this quarter we had about 15 or so flavors in production in Q1 have now jumped to 30.

[00:28:28] So pretty big broad jump for us as a company. And that includes both gage and cookies, brand and flour. We want to continue to expand that. And continuing to expand that, try to get to as many varieties as possible. And yes, of course, you know, that does. Create a little bit of headaches when it comes to, you know, just supply chain and things along those lines, but it’s what the consumer wants.

[00:28:46] Right? It’s, it’s, it’s what people are looking for. Everyone’s always excited to, you know, try new flavor, try new cross or something. And it’s something that we’ll probably focus on in the near term now that we have the cultivation capacity to do it, you know, we’ll probably be. [00:29:00] When you include our, you know, our contract manufacturer, the number one cultivator in Michigan.

[00:29:04] And if we can be the number one producer of flour and ensure that we’re also, you know, the best in terms of variety, it’s going to be a really a big win-win situation, I think for both us and both for the consumer as well. Yeah. And to kind of pair back the

[00:29:17] Bryan Fields: [00:29:17] brand loyalty with the relationships and the awareness plus in the strategic positioning and being acceptable can really make that kind of a loyalty factor with the consumer long-term.

[00:29:26] And I think you’re

[00:29:27] Fabian Monaco: [00:29:27] really nailing that. Yeah, I appreciate that. So biggest

[00:29:31] Bryan Fields: [00:29:31] misconception in the cannabis space since you started working and then

[00:29:34] Fabian Monaco: [00:29:34] that cannabis is, is a commodity. I hate hearing that because it’s just so far from the truth, right. They try to a couple of, you know, have an investor call or questions from investors.

[00:29:46] Some, you know, some, so some will think, oh, it’s just a commoditized business. It’s like tomatoes. It’s so far from the truth. I mean, I think you guys will appreciate this analogy. It’s not exactly like the wine industry, but it’s quite similar, right. Especially if you’re like a true [00:30:00] connoisseur of wine, let’s say which I’m not, but what, from what I’ve been told, you want to know, okay, where was this?

[00:30:05] Where’s this wine from? What country? How was it grown? Where was it? The ground was that pronoun. The base of a volcano was a groan at a certain altitude. What grapes were used, what did they do with the grapes after. Did they crush them by hand, they crushed them with their feet. Did they crushed them through a machine?

[00:30:20] You know, how do they store the wine after? Was it an Oak barrel glass barrel steel barrel stainless steel barrel. So there’s so many facets to the wine industry and at least for me, Cannabis has quasi similar, especially for like the true Connor sewer, the true refined consumer and yes, not everybody’s, you know, to that point just yet.

[00:30:40] But I think the industry continues to grow. It continues to, you know, gain, gain a fan base across the country that people actually care about these small nuances. Right? Is it greenhouse grown? It’s a grown out tour. Has it grown indoor? What did the post-production process look like? If you grow, let’s say Brian, you grow a fan, you know, let’s call it.

[00:30:56] You are an operator. You grow fantastic cannabis. But you [00:31:00] trimmed it extremely poorly. You didn’t dry it. Well, you didn’t package it well, You gave someone a bag of eights, but you included a whole bunch of small little nugs in it. I think just generally that brand or that entity or that licensed producers not going to be well received.

[00:31:17] So I think there’s like so many little steps from the seed all the way to the smoke in this industry. That it’s just not commoditized. And maybe some markets where the supply is extremely, extremely tight. Maybe like a place like New Jersey or maybe a place like, you know, Pennsylvania, we’re still, you know, supplies, really not even coming close to the demand.

[00:31:36] Sure. You know, you can get away with producing just good product, obviously, but you don’t really have to focus on the details in a place like Cali and a place like Colorado. You know, Michigan, you got to really focus on those details and, and that’s where the industry’s going, because, you know, we saw in Canada what happened with, you know, people just growing the same type of flavors, the same type of, and really having no variety and [00:32:00] nothing special.

[00:32:01] You saw how the Canadian licensed producers are performing. And I think, you know, not saying that’s going to happen in the U S it’s a totally different piece, but again, I think, you know, us operators need to be cognizant of that as, as competition continues to increase. You really have to you really have to have a refined strategy.

[00:32:16] And again, I’d say that’s the number one thing that really annoys me when someone says that, you know, cannabis is a commoditized business because it’s just so far from it, the truth. And it

[00:32:23] Kellan Fineny: [00:32:23] goes back to exactly what you’re saying about the trends in California and how it’s going to kind of that ripple effect across the country.

[00:32:31] I mean, the job that California did and implementing the Appalachian laws and really kind of teeing the whole industry up to kind of Mir. Something like the wine industry, I think is exactly where, where the whole space is going to go. So I think you’re right on point with that.

[00:32:47] Bryan Fields: [00:32:47] How do we

[00:32:47] Fabian Monaco: [00:32:47] educate the consumer?

[00:32:49] Bryan Fields: [00:32:49] Like there’s so many variables. You were just describing Fabian, but how does a consumer who’s kind of curious, walks into dispensary for a bit of first or second time. He’s overwhelmed

[00:33:00] [00:32:59] Fabian Monaco: [00:32:59] by the 9 million options. Where do they start? Is it

[00:33:03] Bryan Fields: [00:33:03] on the brands is on the budtenders is a combination of both. How do they get educated on all of the characteristics of the plant?

[00:33:10] Because like you were saying, it is incredible, but there are so many

[00:33:13] Fabian Monaco: [00:33:13] layers to the product. You know, at least, at least from my perspective, especially for the new consumer, you know, edibles, you know what I mean are always a good introduction. Basically, you know, see how your body reacts, see how you feel.

[00:33:26] You know what I mean? When you consume that type of product, obviously drinks, not as popular, but you know, potentially another method for a new consumer. Pre-rolls is, you know, if you want to see have a choice, pre-rolls are obviously a perfect, perfect way to get introduced to the industry. Again, it’s something that you really need to cater to, to people’s tastes.

[00:33:45] Some people don’t want to smoke anything, right. So you have to educate them on the other varieties in terms of consuming. Some are, you know, totally comfortable with with smoking. And obviously you can introduce them to you know, that type of crowd category. And obviously [00:34:00] the, all the flavors that, you know, you have in a proper way.

[00:34:03] But I think overall it’s really just finding out, you know, what does the consumer want? What are they looking for at the start? And then catering to that consumer. And that’s how we approach, you know, our new let’s call it a fan base that comes to our brand and says, Hey, you know, I’m, I’m a new user, you know, w what can I try?

[00:34:19] You try to ease them into it, right? Because the last thing you want, especially, you know, for this industry is someone to get turned off right away. Right. We already have to deal with so much adversity, right. So if we can win over one person at a time and, you know, make sure that they truly, truly, and fully appreciate.

[00:34:36] And what this industry has to offer from not only a personal standpoint, but just generally the job creation. Taxes, et cetera. And, you know, just even just easing up on the, on the, on the, on the kind of let’s call it I even know how to say, even on the regulatory side of things, to just make things so much easier for this industry.

[00:34:53] So it can really blossom. We need all the positives we can get. I mean, it’s

[00:34:57] Kellan Fineny: [00:34:57] already a steep hill that we’re climbing as [00:35:00] far as a social stigma goes that. It’d be nice if they could throw us a bone, as far as regulatory aspects go as well. You know, it’s, it’s tough fighting that battle on both

[00:35:09] Fabian Monaco: [00:35:09] fronts.

[00:35:09] Totally. It’s not easy. You know, we already, we already have to deal with so much and, you know, grow in such a constrained environment and it’s such a cash heavy business still, right? Like I can’t wait for the day to, you know, kind of go into any dispensary you want them and really just put your Amex down or your visa down and just, you know, be able to purchase the product.

[00:35:27] I think that will even bring some growth to the industry as well. Just in terms of. Yeah. Again, someone comes to dispensary, you have a certain amount in their pocket and again, not, not to try to entice someone to spend more than they should, but again, they have a certain amount in their pocket that they see, you know, oh, wow.

[00:35:42] You have a new flavor there. I was just going to come here just for my go-to, but I see how this new flavor, if such a cash heavy business. So you’re like, okay, well I don’t have that much cash in my pocket. So the ability it’s just like anything else, right. If you’re going to. By a bottle of wine or, you know, some beer at the, at the corner liquor store.

[00:35:59] Right. [00:36:00] If you only had certain amount of your in your pocket, but you actually wanted to buy something else or try something new. To help, you know, expand, you know, w what you’re looking for you can do that easily, right? You can just say, okay, I’m just gonna put it on my card. So, you know, these small little nuances, people think don’t really, you know, affect the industry, but they do, you know, they weigh down on the industry, you know, the lack of access to banking not being able to list on a U S recognized exchange.

[00:36:24] Again, it sounds like it’s more of a stock and capital markets, single it’s like, well, no, not really. It’s, it’s an access to capital thing. Right. Get better access to capital for these cannabis companies. The more they can grow, the more jobs they can create and the bigger and better the industry gets.

[00:36:39] Everything

[00:36:39] Bryan Fields: [00:36:39] is harder and kind of, cause I think you perfectly said it. So before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests two questions. If you could sum up your experience in the cannabinoid space into one main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would

[00:36:53] Fabian Monaco: [00:36:53] that be? I work really, really hard.

[00:36:56] I work really, really hard because again, it’s not that [00:37:00] and be ready for the challenges, at least in this day and age. Right? Like we just talked about the, the challenges of, of, of regulations. You know, there’s, there’s a whole variety of operational challenges as well. It’s still, you know, still hard to attract good quality people to the industry.

[00:37:14] And I’m not saying that we don’t already have a good quality people in this industry from a climate standpoint, but to really attract, you know, top-notch quality people and people still have this stigma towards the industry. So it’s a little tough, right? So you gotta be prepared for the challenges you gotta prepared for the ups and downs because there are going to be plenty.

[00:37:29]But if you can stay the course, I think, you know, those that come out on the other side when hopefully things get a little bit easier for us as companies from a whole variety of angles. Those are gonna be the true winners. That’s for sure. The last time you consumed any

[00:37:42] Bryan Fields: [00:37:42] cannabinoids?

[00:37:43] Fabian Monaco: [00:37:43] Probably two nights ago I had an edible before I went to sleep.

[00:37:46] I find the, you know, edibles really helped me sleep. Especially these days where, you know, things are always high stress. At least for me being a newly, publicly traded company here in Canada, you know, just a, you got to gotta be on top of your game all the time. And sometimes like anyone else [00:38:00] it gets to you.

[00:38:00] So I have a nice, a edible 30 minutes before I go to sleep, but it usually means I’m going to have a nice sleep. At least for me. Yeah. That

[00:38:07] Bryan Fields: [00:38:07] U2 might go to and as a new father, Nan, do I miss sleep? So it’s nice to hear that you’re

[00:38:14] Fabian Monaco: [00:38:14] doing better there. Congratulations. Congratulate. Yeah, my kids are a tad older, but they still wake up bright and early.

[00:38:20] And my son he’s turning two. He You woke up at 6:00 AM today. So it was a little, a little bit of a rough start to the day. Listen, 6:00 AM is

[00:38:27] Bryan Fields: [00:38:27] like our fourth wake up. I’m 10 days in and it’s like a two hour hazing session. We’re going through this.

[00:38:32] Fabian Monaco: [00:38:32] Oh yeah. You got a big hill to climb still.

[00:38:35] Bryan Fields: [00:38:35] All I see is my, my sleeping cannabinoids on my desk and I’m like, man, what?

[00:38:39] I take one of these in our people, but then I don’t know,

[00:38:44] Fabian Monaco: [00:38:44] you’ll sleep for days

[00:38:46] Bryan Fields: [00:38:46] and that’ll be it.

[00:38:48] Fabian Monaco: [00:38:48] So prediction time, 10 years from now.

[00:38:52] Bryan Fields: [00:38:52] Which product category

[00:38:54] Fabian Monaco: [00:38:54] will be the biggest by sales. Okay. Years. I think it’s going to be [00:39:00] neck and neck between flour and edibles. Yeah. Neck and neck, between flower and edibles.

[00:39:04] I think, you know, edibles will continue to continue to gain ground. Not so sure on the drinks still not sold on the drinks and beverages, but yeah, no, I think edibles is. It’s a great category. It’s getting a lot of steam. It’s an easy way to consume as well. Very easy. It’s time, time efficient, obviously as well.

[00:39:23] I would say very, very, very close, but I still, you know, still love flowers. I’m going to say flower. That’s my final answer.

[00:39:31] Kellan Fineny: [00:39:31] I don’t know. And it’s either edibles or, or flour. Right. And I think the biggest variable in that prediction is going to be how the next generation that comes online views. Smoking right.

[00:39:46] Because I think right now, like our generation and the generation above us, we,

[00:39:52] Bryan Fields: [00:39:52] cannabis

[00:39:53] Kellan Fineny: [00:39:53] has always been something we’ve smoked. And so flower will, can continue to dominate as we are the main [00:40:00] buyers as consumers. But it’ll be really interesting to see how. The younger generation views smoking in general.

[00:40:07] I mean, is there going to be a resurgence, if not, and they really focus more on like the wellness aspect and really are health conscious. Then I think edibles will take the day, no matter what, just from an ease of consuming, but in 10 years, I don’t know. I’m going to, I’m going to stick with flour too.

[00:40:23] What about, what, what are your thoughts, Brian?

[00:40:25] Bryan Fields: [00:40:25] Obviously calling, you know, I’m very, very bullish on the beverage market. I think from a social standpoint, getting together with your friends, consuming an edible, it, it kind of isn’t that same feeling of standing around with like a white claw or a beer. So from a social standpoint, I think the low dose THC beverages are

[00:40:42] Fabian Monaco: [00:40:42] going to just absolutely

[00:40:43] Bryan Fields: [00:40:43] explode.

[00:40:44] I think it’s also easy to kind of like adopt the kind of curious people who are unfamiliar with cannabinoids, but are interested in trying, because it’s such a mild. Case. And I think edibles, why I love them personally. I think they get a bad rap because people sometimes associate bad experiences [00:41:00] with them.

[00:41:00] If they had a pony in college, which was made by their friend and they had a bad experience, they’re likely deterred from China again. So I think the fabric market will be really beneficial for people who are migrating and, or newly entrance into the space. But also I think people who are heavy alcohol consumer, who are sick of hangovers and are interested in kind of getting a light little buzz.

[00:41:20] If they gravitate towards that, it could be a huge growth area to ensure while it’s here to stay. I think that the troop Yurik will always do that. And I don’t think that category is going to get hurt at all, but I think the beverage

[00:41:30] Fabian Monaco: [00:41:30] market will

[00:41:31] Bryan Fields: [00:41:31] actually explode and obviously I’m very bullish on

[00:41:33] Fabian Monaco: [00:41:33] that side.

[00:41:34] Kellan Fineny: [00:41:34] A little mix of a cocktail, a little THC and alcohol cocktail at the bar. That sounds like a really dangerous thing.

[00:41:42] Bryan Fields: [00:41:42] Maybe before we wrap, where can our listeners get in touch? We’ll tag gage and all in the show notes, but if they want to get involved and learn more about your company specifically, where can they

[00:41:52] Fabian Monaco: [00:41:52] yeah.

[00:41:52] Look, I mean, follow us on social media for sure. On our Instagram page, you know, we have close to 30,000 followers have a big broad network. We put a [00:42:00] lot of time and effort into our social media. Really, it’s a great place to also see, you know, what we’ve come out with in terms of, you know, new flour, you flavors, et cetera, and new product lines so that, you know, just follow us like gauge cannabis go to our website, gage cannabis.com as well.

[00:42:14] Again, that’s gauged cannabis.com. If you have any investor questions, email [email protected]. Again, that’s I [email protected]. Obviously we trade on the Canadian securities exchange under the symbol. G a G E and on the OTC in the U S on the pink sheets for now under the symbol, G a E G F. We appreciate

[00:42:37] Bryan Fields: [00:42:37] you taking the time and looking forward to seeing you migrate to the east coast and continuing to dominate

[00:42:41] Fabian Monaco: [00:42:41] Michigan.

[00:42:42] Appreciate it guys. Thanks a lot for having me on. Thanks for the time. [00:43:00]

Thanks so much for listening to The Dime . Subscribe or follow us on Seeking Alpha, Libsyn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Play or Stitcher. And we’d really appreciate it if you could leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others find our show.

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Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

In this episode, Bryan Fields (Twitter: @bryanfields24) and Kellan Finney (Twitter: @Kellan_Finney) sit down with Johanna Nuding (Twitter: @jonuding), Host of the Casually Baked Podcast:

Her journey to becoming a cannabis lifestyle guide // Understanding dosage levels and balancing infused products // The average length of a high when using infused products // Cannabis tourism and how it works // The similarities between the cannabis and wine industry // Why a personalized experience is important for learning about cannabis

Johanna Nuding is an entrepreneur, cannabis expert, and educator based in Oakland, CA. She has twenty years of experience building brands and customer engagement in professional sports, media, real estate, concert and lifestyle tours. She’s served the cannabis industry and community for five years through her edutainment platform, Casually Baked, where she showcases the evolving landscape, research, and science of contemporary cannabis. Her weekly “potcast” is in its fifth year and highlights the responsible side of plant medicine through candid chats with cannabis scientists and researchers worldwide, heritage and regenerative farmers, military veterans, makers, wellness practitioners, and cannabis industry leaders building the nascent legal cannabis

Connect with Johanna


[email protected]

Casually Baked, the Potcast: casuallybaked.com @casuallybaked on FB IG, Twitter. Casually Baked YouTube Channel

[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: [00:00:00] This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents.

[00:00:11] Bryan Fields: [00:00:11] What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime as always. I’ve got my right hand, man, Kellen city here with me. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Joanna nuding host of the very popular, casual, big podcast, as well as the cannabis lifestyle guy.

[00:00:24] Joanna, thanks for taking the time. How are you doing

[00:00:26] Johanna Nuding: [00:00:26] today? Nice. Thanks for having me. I’m great. It’s a beautiful day in Oakland, California. No.

[00:00:32] Bryan Fields: [00:00:32] And how you doing today?

[00:00:33] Kellan Finney: [00:00:33] I’m doing well, you know, enjoying another sunny day out in Colorado. So no complaints,

[00:00:37] Bryan Fields: [00:00:37] I think before we dive into these questions, I’d love to learn a little bit about your background and how you got into the cannabis space.

[00:00:43] Johanna Nuding: [00:00:43] So that’s a pretty big question cause I’ve been on one hell of a roller coaster ride, but back in 2012, I quit a corporate marketing director job in Austin, Texas. I gave away all my things. I sold my car and I [00:01:00] moved to bologna Italy to ponder the question, how can I get paid to be myself? What would that look like?

[00:01:08] So I took a mid-life retirement and posted up in Italy and spent the next 16 months. Dreaming up being host of casually baked to the podcast and your cannabis lifestyle guide. Amazing.

[00:01:22] Bryan Fields: [00:01:22] Amazing. So I think before we dive into the hard hitting questions, let’s start with the hardest one of them, all your go-to meal after consuming cannabinoids, you

[00:01:31] Johanna Nuding: [00:01:31] know, that’s interesting because I think you shouldn’t like once I consume.

[00:01:37] Like if I eat, then it, the buzz starts going away. So I like to to hold off and then of course I’m going to get into some pasta. I mean, like pastable and Yazzie is one of my specialties, so I really liked to get high and then get in the kitchen and cook [00:02:00] and like work up the appetite and get excited about it.

[00:02:03] And of course, Burn myself and maybe cut myself every now and again, but you know, harmless, harmless fun in the kitchen.

[00:02:11] Bryan Fields: [00:02:11] Amazing. See, wherever nature just takes you in your experience,

[00:02:15] Kellan Finney: [00:02:15] was Italy a motivation for the apostle love or did you go to Italy because of your love for pasta?

[00:02:20] Johanna Nuding: [00:02:20] I think I might’ve been Italian in a former life, but I wasn’t a cook.

[00:02:26] You know, I was nervous in the kitchen and I had been experimenting. With making edibles. I had, I’ve always been more adventurous with cannabis than my friends were. And so, you know, when those very first vape pens came out with the little, you know, ceramic and the battery and you loaded a tiny little bowl.

[00:02:49] And so I was always trying out new products and then I started extracting. The oil and making butters and then cookies and [00:03:00] cupcakes and all kinds of stuff. You know, I was living in Austin, Texas, and it’s the music capital of the world. I believe we call it. So I would make cookies and brownies and rice Krispie treats and sell them to my friends before the major concerts and festivals.

[00:03:15] And those one day I sold. A thousand dollars worth of cookies in a day. So that was my comfort level in the kitchen was just baking edibles. But if I couldn’t invite somebody over for a meal, I was nervous wreck. I can’t make chicken. So, you know, when I moved to Italy, my whole process was I’m going to learn the art of doing nothing.

[00:03:39] I’m going to learn how to cook. And I’m just gonna, you know, be high and absorb this culture and figure it all out. And I cooked myself three meals a day and would, you know, I had, my refrigerator was the size of one of those in our dorm rooms in college. So it’s not like you can go to the store or, you know, fucking Costco or [00:04:00] something.

[00:04:00] So I was buying food every two days and having such a good time learning to cook and I didn’t speak Italian and I didn’t really have any intention of setting in a classroom. So I started learning more Italian by hanging out with people in the kitchen. And so I learned, started learning how to make really amazing sauces, how to turn leftovers into a, you know, a gourmet meal.

[00:04:27] And I kind of started learning Italian that way. And so when I came back, To the United States. I was a really confident chef and I was super confident to talk to people because everybody could understand the words coming out of my mouth and I, them. So that really was the best gift I ever gave myself.

[00:04:48] And you know, I’m, I’m single. Hello everyone. So I’m single and I know how to cook now. So I feel like it made me a more marketable partner,

[00:04:59] Bryan Fields: [00:04:59] strong characteristics [00:05:00] will pack all the single men out there. Have we experimented with any infused pastas, any sauces? This is a personal question of mine, because for me, the experience of eating pasta is one of my favorite things.

[00:05:12] And it’s, if I can get an infused dinner at the same time, I mean, we are checking two at the same time. That’s something that you’ve kind of dabbled

[00:05:18] Johanna Nuding: [00:05:18] with. Well, what I do is keep an infused olive oil in my kitchen. Right now I have a Humboldt blend. It’s got three or four different strains from different farmer friends around Humboldt.

[00:05:32] And, you know, you have to be really careful about heating it to a certain point where you’re not. Breaking it and, you know, losing all of the functional parts of the plant. And so what I end up doing is it’s a drizzling of over your sauce at the end, you know, right before you serve it to somebody or it’s incorporating it into some sort of a salad dressing or something like that.

[00:05:56] But, you know, you don’t want, after you’ve made the oil, you don’t want to [00:06:00] heat it up again. So it’s just being clever with how you use it. But. You know, in my kitchen, I’ve got my GrapeSEED oil, my olive oil, my infused olive oil and my avocado oil. And so, you know, you just pull what you want and, you know, drizzle a little here and there, but I do add it to my granola recipe.

[00:06:20] And so then in the mornings I get a little shot of THC with my breakfast every day,

[00:06:28] Bryan Fields: [00:06:28] best way to start the day. So how do you know, like how much you’re consuming when you’re pouring it? Because. Sometimes for me, especially with infuse Volvo more is always better until it’s too much more. So how do you kind of balance that?

[00:06:40] Can you,

[00:06:40] Johanna Nuding: [00:06:40] it, well, I think it’s mostly making sure, you know, how much. Flower you have in the original recipe. So like, I am creating an oil that is a microdose, you know, it’s, it’s not something that’s going to kick you in the pants. Now I [00:07:00] do have some other stuff that will kick you in the pants, but I don’t put that in my food.

[00:07:05] So if you know how much flour is in there in the beginning, then when you’re just drizzling some on you, you don’t have anything to worry about. Now I make it to where one fourth of. A cup because that’s typically what a lot of dessert recipes like muffins, cookies, that kind of thing. It’ll want to afford a cup of oil.

[00:07:23] And so I made it to where that one fourth, a cup of oil makes a. Casually baked edible. Does that make sense? Cause casually baked Is art of being functionally high

[00:07:36] Bryan Fields: [00:07:36] failed miserably at bat being functionally, because for me sometimes it’s it’s this is awesome. I just need more and more. And for me it gets harder to stop.

[00:07:43] So I guess like, I’m just thinking about the experience of making that with, with my buddies and making the chicken wings and how amazing that sauce was and just how we just kept eating that. And. I guess if Kellen your experience with that, you know, take us through that. Have you any dabbled with the infused olive oil?

[00:07:58] Kellan Finney: [00:07:58] I haven’t dabbled with infused [00:08:00] olive oil. I have made butter and use the butter to make cookies. Right. And it’s very similar. Actually, the first time we did it, we bought a bunch of a shake in college. Right. And did the whole thing into a whole ounce into 10 steaks of butter. And we used all the butter to make.

[00:08:15] Four or five brownies. And like we made the bottom of one night and one of my roommates got up early in the morning and actually went and made the brownies. And he was like eating the batter during the whole process. Then you have like a brownie and a half, like me and my other roommate came downstairs at like 10 in the morning.

[00:08:30] And we were like, oh, well, like let’s, let’s have a brownie. We’re like, where’s, where’s our other roommate. And we like, couldn’t find him. And we didn’t see him for 24 hours. Right. And like, we talked to him the next day, he comes out of his room on Sunday and he was like, I just had the craziest experience of my life.

[00:08:47] Like I was hallucinating. And like, we like ended up doing the math and we’re like, oh yeah, he consumed a, a quarter ounce in one city. And that quantity of THC is definitely, I mean, there’s a [00:09:00] reason it’s called a hallucinogen. Right. Like consume a ton of it. But I did actually have a really pleasant experience at an infused dinner in 2018 at the MJ biz conference out in Vegas.

[00:09:11] And it was done by the herbal chef. I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, but he does a lot of really cool infusion soft and everything he was talking about was making that oil and exactly what you mentioned in terms of dosing it out properly for that quarter cup. And it was one of the most unique, awesome experiences in my life.

[00:09:28] It was like a seven course meal and like none of the actual food had it, it was all the sauces that were infused. Right. And like that balance of like the actual casually baked aspect of it, it was, it was phenomenal because like, throughout the course of the night, you could just look around and see everyone just kind of like getting like giggly and more happy.

[00:09:47] And like, no one like actually hit that like super stone wall. You know what I mean? Like everyone was still very, very social. So. It definitely is an art form in my opinion, and in terms of managing that. And so I give my hats off for [00:10:00] anyone that can make that, make that a reality, because it’s beautiful when you’re able to experience

[00:10:04] Johanna Nuding: [00:10:04] it.

[00:10:05] There are a couple of fun ways that you can manage that. I have been at a party once where someone made some amazing dessert and they made the exact same dessert. Where I call it unleaded, you know, without the weed in it. And so everybody, you had one of those and then she replaced the plate with the unleaded version.

[00:10:30] So when people came back and wanted more, they didn’t accidentally keep consuming more THC. And then the other thing is to have a CBD infused oil. So that you can have that little roller coaster of the THC takes you up. And the CBD brings you down a little bit and you know, that’s a fun, little ride, but easy ways that you can help manage it.

[00:10:53] Bryan Fields: [00:10:53] It kind of kick in after you put the olive oil in any of your

[00:10:56] meals.

[00:10:57] Johanna Nuding: [00:10:57] Well, I think we’re, you know, we’re all different. I tell [00:11:00] people we’re all precious snowflakes and you know, the way our genetics are, you know, I metabolize THC. I’d metabolize cannabinoids faster than most people. So I can be high and back down again, where I know people that have had an edible and they felt it for two and a half or three days.

[00:11:23] And I always thought they were full of shit until I had an epigenetic. Panel run. And I found out exactly how cannabis interacts with my body. I know exactly how it all works. And so then I’m like, oh, they weren’t crazy. That actually happens to some people. So, you know, I think 30, you know, for some within 30 minutes, they’re probably feeling it.

[00:11:48] Some people, it may take a couple hours before they’re really feeling something, but, you know, with CBD though, You just feel a lightness of being, you know, and some somebody that doesn’t consume [00:12:00] cannabis will be like, I’m high. You said, I wouldn’t feel high I’m high. And I’m like, no, you just have, you know, the weight off of your shoulders.

[00:12:08] And that’s a lovely thing.

[00:12:10] Bryan Fields: [00:12:10] Yeah. That’s I think that’s perfectly said. And I think for the people who are on Botanic Cheerios, when they take CBD for the first time therein, it’s a painting to be high, so much. At any sort of alteration in their normal feeling, even if it’s just kind of a placebo effect, I kind of makes them believe, Hey, I’m really high.

[00:12:27] Maybe they received sin. And you’re like, no, like just take a deep breath, like reset and then realize that like you’re just starting to relax and feels

[00:12:35] Johanna Nuding: [00:12:35] slightly different. Yeah. And the placebo effect is a huge thing. Like our minds are so powerful. It’s. You know, we think it, we become it, you know, that is our thoughts become things.

[00:12:48] So yeah. If you think you’re high, guess you can probably will it to be.

[00:12:52] Bryan Fields: [00:12:52] Yeah. All right. Let’s dive into some fun questions, cannabis, tourism. What does that currently look [00:13:00] like?

[00:13:00] Johanna Nuding: [00:13:00] Well, right now, I’m not sure what it looks like. Anywhere outside of where I live. And I think COVID has, you know, made it to where it’s kind of non-existent, but as things are opening back up, you know, there are, besides the tours, you know, the tour buses that you can get on, that’ll take you to some dispensaries and.

[00:13:23] You know, in Colorado, I think it’s, there’s more of a party bus feel to it. In California, in Northern California, specifically, they’ve got this cannabis trail that’s opening up where you’re exploring the history of the cannabis culture in San Francisco and, you know, driving up the 1 0 1 there’s the cannabis trail, I think is what they’re calling it, but there will be placards up along.

[00:13:49]Historical markers that are showing like, this is where the first cannabis farm has been found, or this is where this person lived, or this is what happened here. And so, you know, I [00:14:00] think it’s going to depend on where you are as to what that might look like, but if somebody’s visiting from illegal state, the thing that I’m trying to do as a cannabis lifestyle guide is, you know, if you’ve never experienced cannabis, I want you to be able to come.

[00:14:18] To my state, my area, and have a positive experience because you have all of the basic knowledge and you have an idea of what you want and how you want to feel. You know, so we kind of craft an experience for somebody based around who they are and who they’re hanging out with, you know, set and setting sort of things.

[00:14:42] And you know, for me, what I offer people is behind the scenes looks at craft cannabis in the Emerald triangle and what sustainable farming is and what home gardening cannabis looks like. And how do you pick [00:15:00] herbs? To help make your own medicine. And I do, you know, medicine making classes with people and we cook a meal together.

[00:15:09] We play with the oils and, and all the time, while we’re hanging out there having a one-on-one or a small group setting with a cannabis lifestyle guide, who’s been living this life for 20 years and. You know, I think that there is so much nuance that for somebody to just come in and, you know, they hit a dispensary, they overbuy, they get gummies.

[00:15:36] Everybody’s like, well, I got to get the gummies. And then, you know, they had home and they’re nervous to fly with it. So then they’re like, you know, giving away gummies, I end up with more gummies and I don’t even eat them very much, but you know, the thing is. There’s such a diverse culture within cannabis.

[00:15:58] And I want to be [00:16:00] able to show people exactly what they want to see. You know, I mean, some people that are, you know, they’ve loved their Colorado cannabis and they want to see what a giant indoor grow looks like, you know, and take them up the street to my friends at nug and, you know, see a huge operation where it’s.

[00:16:20] Seed to sale in this one building, you know, or we go up the road to Northern California and, you know, drive on a windy road for an hour and come to a clearing and there are water tanks and, you know, a giant cannabis farm. And, you know, there’s just so much to see. And I think. It’s just enticing people with their current curiosities and, and giving them an experience that they couldn’t buy anywhere

[00:16:47] Bryan Fields: [00:16:47] else.

[00:16:48] Sounds amazing. And I think it’s so perfect for, for, as you describe the people, for example, on the east coast, we just haven’t experienced these things, but have heard what’s going on in Colorado and California and are interested in [00:17:00] kind of seeing that because for some of the older generation here on the east coast, you know, they have the experience of cannabis from back in the college or some of the tours and.

[00:17:07] You know, getting to one of these facilities like you’re describing it has to be eyeopening for them. So where’s the first place you take them when you, when you get a small group, that’s kind of really interested in ready to go, because obviously that first impression is so perfect when you see their faces and their eyes.

[00:17:21] Johanna Nuding: [00:17:21] Yeah. It’s it’s overwhelming for people when they walk into dispensary. And I really do love watching people’s faces when they walk in. But the very first thing that I do is I bring them into my studio and we have. A lifestyle session. I’m just like, you know, when was the last time you smoked cannabis?

[00:17:41] When was the time before that, you know, like, let’s see how often you do this. And. And, you know, what’s your lifestyle? Like what, you know, what, how comfortable are you being intoxicated? You know, have you ever consumed cannabis and alcohol simultaneously? [00:18:00] Like all of these things are important, especially in California, where we have this trifecta of wine country, weed country and craft beer and cider.

[00:18:10] You know, you do all three of those things. I’ve seen somebody get, so crossfaded and fall out in the middle of a restaurant at like six 30 in the evening. Like we’re barely getting started. And so, you know, there are these cautionary tales that I like to be able to share with people after I kind of assess where they are and then, you know, I think that dispensary’s are also unique.

[00:18:37] I would take, I take people to different dispensaries based on who they are, you know, whether it’s a couple or, you know, a single person, somebody who is curious about the California sober lifestyle and once. To explore. Drinkables I’ve got to take them to a dispensary that has a really good drinkable selection.

[00:18:57] So, you know, for me, it just, I do a little bit of [00:19:00] homework based on the people that I’m with so that I can give them a completely unique experience.

[00:19:05] Bryan Fields: [00:19:05] Yeah, and I want to go to you on this because on this podcast, we always talk about the education and the stigma and the massive challenge that it is and removing the kind of common stigma of the canvas stoner.

[00:19:16] So from your perspective, I mean, it, it seems like she’s nailing exactly the educational level. And I think, you know, what does the, the feeling on the west coast have with, with these, these posters, with these wide eyes coming out and kind of experiencing this for the first time?

[00:19:30] Kellan Finney: [00:19:30] Yeah. I mean, education is absolutely the most critical aspect associated with de stigmatizing cannabis nationally.

[00:19:39] Right. And I mean, it is a completely different world from the east coast, just from the type of people that inhabit the west coast versus the type of people that didn’t have it, the east coast. And so. You do have to walk that really, really delicate line that a generalist describing because blasting the industry needs is someone to come [00:20:00] out and go explore these things and be like, oh my God, it is the devil’s lettuce.

[00:20:05] And I’m going to go tell everyone that I got so messed up, that I couldn’t even see straight. And it’s worse than alcohol. And like, I was not like, all these things are just, it’s not what the industry needs. And so. You the way that she’s approaching this as exactly how it needs to be, you know, from a de-stigmatizing cannabis as well as educating, right?

[00:20:23] Like that balance is so crucial right now for the industry, especially where it’s at. And so, I mean, what, what’s your stance on that coming from the east coast, Brian being kind of a younger generation, right? I mean, how was your parents Perceive going out to California and jumping on a nice like wine tour van situation, but instead of wine, they’re going out and seeing these pot farms, like what would be, what would be your father’s kind of reaction to something like that?

[00:20:49] I

[00:20:49] Bryan Fields: [00:20:49] think in his mind is, might be the greatest thing that ever existed. And this might be worthwhile to move out forever because like, I can’t wait to go share with him this idea and this concept and him the [00:21:00] return, like how quickly can I get out there because. You know what he used experienced from like rolling tiny joints, what he could experience.

[00:21:06] I knew work tour. It’s just an open his eyes to all these other things. And I guess I want to follow up with like, what’s the typical age group that does something like this? Is it more on the younger side? Do you think it’s better for the older side? Because obviously the tour is, is dependent on the age group because you’re wanting to cater to them, like you said.

[00:21:21] So I’m just curious, you know, where does, where does the age

[00:21:24] Johanna Nuding: [00:21:24] fit in? You know, it’s really. I believe it can be all over the map, but when you’re thinking about somebody who can afford to do something like this, I’m like, you know, mid thirties, but I have a woman coming out from North Carolina, I’m in the middle of July and she lives a sober lifestyle.

[00:21:44] And she is curious about the California sober thing. And you know, she and I have had sessions before over the phone or, you know, zoom. And she’s also a patron of the podcast, patrion.com backslash [00:22:00] casually baked. And so I had said,

[00:22:06] you know, you gotta do what you can when you’re a coordinator. And so I had put this out there. I was like, okay guys, I now have access to a farm, stay in the wine and weed country. I’m thinking about doing personalized experiences. And she immediately was just sign me up. I, first of all, adore you and I want to have you to myself for a few days, but I also want to experience being able to go to happy hour and have a cocktail, but it not be booze.

[00:22:40] And you know, and so she and I are going to explore the California sober lifestyle. And like I said, I’m going to teach her how to make her own. Tinctures and stuff, so she can create this at home for herself, but then also let her try. You know, the Hi-Fi [00:23:00] hops by, you know, log Anita’s and the paps blue ribbons, new lemon seltzer and, you know, Wonderland and all of these great drinkables, you know, one of the things that I liked to explore within the drinkables market, because I’m into that as well is, you know, the low sugar options, you know, you’ve read the label and it’s like, oh, well, this only has.

[00:23:24] Four grams of sugar, but then it says, once you get a little bit further down, it’s like, oh, Well, that’s four grams of sugar for a three milligram dose, and I want 10 milligrams. So now it’s not really feeling so low sugar to me anymore. So, you know, it’s also educating people on how to explore that kind of stuff, because if you are interested in a cannabis for wellness lifestyle, like I live, then you do care about the sugar content, but that’s why I hate most of the gummies.

[00:23:59] Is it [00:24:00] because, you know, it’s a gummy that’s then, you know, covered in sugar crystals. And it’s just like, why did you do that last part? I didn’t need that, but they’re just doing all this taste masking with sugar. And I just think that there’s more competition in the industry. We’re going to have a lot better options.

[00:24:18] Soon people that are utilizing say Monkfruit or, you know, date juice or something like that versus just raw sugar. I kind of went off on a tangent. Sorry.

[00:24:29] Bryan Fields: [00:24:29] No, it’s perfect. And for those who are just unfamiliar with the California sober wellness pro can you just kind of share just quickly what that is, just so that they have some understanding?

[00:24:39] Johanna Nuding: [00:24:39] Sure. So, you know, I am somebody who I still drink alcohol on occasion. It’s mostly a really nice glass of red wine or an Aperol spritz on a hot afternoon, but it is replacing. You know, no hard drugs, you know, there any it’s [00:25:00] natural whole plant medicine for both wellness and entertainment. And so it’s just a more mindful approach to socialization and, and being with your friends and imbibing.

[00:25:14] And so the opportunity really is, you know, to try it out and and start kind of figuring out what that’s like. And then, you know, Incorporating alcohol in maybe the next day and seeing how you feel like what’s different. You know, for me, once I got north of 40, I started waking up with really bad headaches after not drinking very much.

[00:25:41] And so there was just this like Seesaw effect of like, well, this night, I had cannabis infused drinks and I woke up and I felt just fine. And this night I drank wine and I had a really rough day the next day. And so I think for people that live here and [00:26:00] participate in it, You know, it, it starts out as an experiment and then it quickly becomes a no brainer

[00:26:06] Bryan Fields: [00:26:06] music to my ears, because for me the same way that one gods flying and my body doesn’t handle it so well where those Intuit’s beverages, I feel great at night.

[00:26:15] And the next day I feel normal. And if I was given an option right now of never having a hangover again, I would sign up every single time. And in fact means never having booze again. You know, I mean, sure. I would of course have the occasional drink here and there, but you know, that option and that be ability to go to a beverage that kind of relaxes me and makes me feel good.

[00:26:34] And wake up with that. Anglers said no

[00:26:36] Johanna Nuding: [00:26:36] brainer. And you know, I will admit that. Being a little bit red wine drunk and high is a fucking amazing feeling. But you know, it’s like, okay, now we got to hit stop at like eight 30 or 8 45 and chug a liter of water before we go to bed. So, you know, I’m S I’ll still do that, but I just know that I have to completely [00:27:00] hydrate and be fine before I go to sleep.

[00:27:02] It’s hard to do. It is hard to do. And, you know, and that’s one of the things where I’m like, I constantly have to defend my lifestyle to my parents when they’re like, you spend how much for rent, why are you still living in California? I’m like wine, weather and weed. Like you can’t give me all of those things in Texas.

[00:27:21] And so, you know, when people come out here, I still want to showcase the amazing wine culture of California. And so, you know, when I do tours with people, it’s like, there will be a Y if you’re into it, there’s a wine day. There’s a weed day. You know, we can hit the mountains or we can hit the redwoods and go for a hike.

[00:27:44] Like I want to showcase wine, weather and weed in the states and specifically in Northern California. And it’s, it’s just a beautiful mixture. Like when you can have all three of those things working. Together, like it’s magic. [00:28:00] You

[00:28:00] Bryan Fields: [00:28:00] think vineyards will slowly adapting and kind of integrate that area into their facilities as well.

[00:28:06] Because if you could go to one destination, incorporate a little bit of both. I mean, you’re now opening yourself up to such a wider consumer base. And at the end of the day, right? Like you were saying that pairing of the red wine and the nice little J works beautifully together and sure. They’re not upselling each other, but if it’s both available, One might lead to

[00:28:25] Johanna Nuding: [00:28:25] the other.

[00:28:26] There are starting to be collaboration and I will say within, you know, The last several years, there’s been that collaboration’s happening, where I live of cannabis brands, partnering with, you know, family, wineries that they know. And I think the real connection and the real education for people there is it’s about the tasting.

[00:28:50] It’s about the nose. It’s about the terpenes So teaching somebody who understands wine. The same way to assess cannabis. [00:29:00] So allowing them to discern what they’re smelling, what the flavor profile is on wine, and then set that down and then do the same thing with a paired cannabis flower that’s, you know, that’s something that I’ve seen done.

[00:29:14]A lot of it or at. Like what Kellan was talking about at the dinners, you know, these infused dinners, where they are pairing the wine with the food, with the specific cannabis, for that specific thing. And I think it has to happen in a really interesting collaborative way right now, because you know, of the legalities of things and not being able to mix the alcohol and the cannabis, but, you know, that’s one of the things that I am, you know, trying to.

[00:29:45] Find the nuance and you know, my friend who owns the, the farm stay w that I’m partnering with, you know They have grapes on their property. It’s a, an old wine family and she went to school and is a winemaker. And so, [00:30:00] you know, I’ve said, Hey, I may tap you to teach a terpene class every now and again.

[00:30:04] And, you know, be somebody who goes along on the ride with some more sophisticated wine drinkers, because I do want people to feel. Not only like they’re having a really unique experience, but they’re, they’re being a little bit challenged. They’re learning something, you know, I think that’s something that we should never stop doing.

[00:30:23] I am constantly curious and I want to infuse that in everything that I do so that when somebody leaves they’re like that, that was the most magical experience. I will never forget that. That’s what I’m looking

[00:30:39] Bryan Fields: [00:30:39] for. Yeah, I’m

[00:30:43] Kellan Finney: [00:30:43] gonna say that that is definitely the direction. I mean, especially with California passing the Appalachian kind of laws, you can see the early formations of them trying to treat cannabis in the same fashion that they’re that wine has been treated.

[00:30:56] And I think that that’s going to really help separate cannabis from the [00:31:00] quote unquote kind of commodity phrase that people have tried to classify cannabis as. Because I don’t know if it really is a commodity based on the unique aspects associated with every single different strain, just like with grapes.

[00:31:12] So I think we’re in the early stages of that right now, hopefully.

[00:31:15] Johanna Nuding: [00:31:15] Right. Well, and I agree, and I think that that is the fun part for consumers is to give them the story because when we do go on a trip and we buy wine and then we’re serving it to our friends at a dinner, You know, like, oh, this was, it was the most beautiful day we went and we sat out on this farm and we pet the goats and did the thing.

[00:31:40] And, you know, everybody has a story about this wine and now people can have a story about the cannabis. You know, there’s one of my friend’s farms. It’s huckleberry hill farms. It is the most beautifully manicured property you’ve ever seen. I mean, it [00:32:00] showcases. Cannabis. Like, I can’t even, it’s so beautiful.

[00:32:05] It brings tears to your eyes. I mean, all of the plants that are helping, like with pest control and the pest management, they just make sure they add pops of color and, you know, everything is just, it’s just serene. And that if someone thinks about a cannabis farm, They don’t think of that, but the first time they lay eyes on that property, it will forever change them.

[00:32:30] And, you know, being able to. Walk somebody through that experience and have a second generation farmer, teach them how to properly trim a bud and to grind and roll a farmer rolled, you know, joints, a big fatty, like, and then they get to take that home with them, you know, like, come on. It doesn’t get better than that.

[00:32:52] And so, yeah, I think storytelling is going to be another really big piece of it.

[00:32:57] Bryan Fields: [00:32:57] What is the most common question that [00:33:00] you field as a cannabis lifestyle guy?

[00:33:03] Johanna Nuding: [00:33:03] Have you ever heard of this CBD? Do you recommend this one?

[00:33:12] Oh, you know what? I finally broke down and did a little bit of homework and found an affiliate. Because I’m like, I jeez, like there’s a bazillion CBDs. And so now I just, I added a podcast affiliate page to my website. And if people ask for a CBD recommendation, I just send them there. You know, but it’s like, you can take whatever you want, just know where it was made.

[00:33:39] Make sure that it has a QR code that actually has the certificate of analysis attached to it. Make sure you can read it. You know, if you got it from a gas station, it’s already a little suspect to me, you know?

[00:33:53] Bryan Fields: [00:33:53] Yeah. It’s usually my response to it. It’s like, where did you buy it? And it’s like a gas station, so, well, we can start there and realize likely not a good [00:34:00] purchase or the other people.

[00:34:01] It’s like, I, I purchased a cream. My mom asked me, my friend purchased a cream and she didn’t feel anything. And I was like, well, I don’t know what she purchased. I don’t know what she was intending to feel. I don’t know anything about that. So if you’d like me just to make up a response, I’m happy to do that.

[00:34:14] Or I can get some more information and it’s, it’s a, it’s a challenge, right? Because you want to give people a positive experience and let them know that like, there’s, there’s something to be there, but at the same time, you don’t want to mislead them. And I, sometimes their expectations are just not real

[00:34:28] Johanna Nuding: [00:34:28] with.

[00:34:29] Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I created educational resources. That was the very first thing I did. And. It was me trying to make sense of it all myself. So, you know, going online, doing my homework and I started piecing everything together into what I call the cannabis class resource guide. And so that’s something that I sell on my website.

[00:34:54] It’s something that I give away to people, you know, in my life that have lots of questions. And I’m [00:35:00] just like, this is a short, quick, easy to read. Nice. Pretty graphics. And there’s a glossary in the back that way, if you don’t even understand what a word is, look it up and, you know, just otherwise I’m like, I, you can hire me to do a personalized class with you, but that otherwise listen to my podcasts.

[00:35:23] Bryan Fields: [00:35:23] Biggest misconception. Since you started working in the cannabis space.

[00:35:28] Johanna Nuding: [00:35:28] Hmm. Well, when I started, I guess it’s been almost six years ago, the first thing I noticed that education was the giant gaping hole in the market. And I think the majority of people fancy themselves educators now, and, and that piece is getting better.

[00:35:45] I think the biggest misconception for people that don’t work in the industry is that we’re all getting rich. Which isn’t true. The other thing that I think is that misconception is that cannabis is cannabis [00:36:00] and all cannabis is not treated or shouldn’t be treated equally. You know, there is a looking under the hood that needs to happen.

[00:36:09] You know, if you, if you believe that your indoor stuff is the best, like. Where, what are the sustainability practices of the people that are growing that, you know, what’s their footprint like? And, you know, we all vote with our dollars and, you know, I think being educated consumers and understanding where your product comes from, you know, I preach it’s so important to know your farmer.

[00:36:34] Now whether or not you have the privilege, like I do to know them personally, but at least having looked them up, gone to their website, see what their practices are explored. That certificate of analysis, because you know, cannabis is cannabis is cannabis is bullshit.

[00:36:53] Bryan Fields: [00:36:53] Well, we do print where we live predictions.

[00:36:56] We ask all of our guests two questions. If you could sum up your [00:37:00] experience into one lesson learned or main takeaway to pass on to the next generation, what would it be?

[00:37:07] Johanna Nuding: [00:37:07] Live a highly inspired life.

[00:37:11] Bryan Fields: [00:37:11] The last time you consumed any cannabinoids, like

[00:37:15] Johanna Nuding: [00:37:15] five seconds before I got on this call with you.

[00:37:22] Bryan Fields: [00:37:22] Regions across the United States, such as Sonoma, California had gained reputation for being known as the wine country. Where will cannabis country be? And let’s let’s, let’s, let’s spell that whole I’m before I do that, I don’t want to easy answers. That’s it. We can’t take humble. We got to take a little more of a challenge.

[00:37:39] Let’s let’s try to guess a little, he had this

[00:37:41] Kellan Finney: [00:37:41] conversation with me as well. He took that off the board. You said I wasn’t allowed to say Humboldt

[00:37:47] Johanna Nuding: [00:37:47] in the Emerald triangle.

[00:37:49] Bryan Fields: [00:37:49] I think we can all talk that up. We’ll agree. That’s that’s the top spot, but if we were going to find, let’s say an up and comer or one that you would say is not commonly associated with [00:38:00] cannabis country, where do you think that could be?

[00:38:03] Johanna Nuding: [00:38:03] Well right now, Oklahoma is the hot wild west. I think that there is a lot of exciting things that could happen in Texas and Oklahoma and, you know, going up the, the Bible belt. But you heard, you heard the trigger word there, so who knows what’s going to happen, but right now, as it stands, the Pacific Northwest is.

[00:38:32] Is the grandfathered cannabis country. Kelly’s shaking his head. He agrees with me.

[00:38:39] Kellan Finney: [00:38:39] I got a lot of time up in Arcata and Humboldt. That’s how I got my whole start in the industry. So I have just. Tremendous amount of respect for the individuals. And I mean, they carried the torch the last 30 years, you know what I mean?

[00:38:51] And some of the tricks of the trade and their knowledge in the space and doing it all, being bootstrapped with helicopters, flying above them is [00:39:00] something that you got to give your hats off. And they’re the reason the industry is where it’s at in my opinion. But as far as a second, a close second, and kind of flying under the radar, every traditional grower I’ve talked to or been around and.

[00:39:12]The biggest thing dealing with humidity is really challenging, right? And so dry arid climates really help from a pest mitigation standpoint in the cultivation process. Right. And so I’ve talked to a lot of people that say back in the day that New Mexico was a really big hotbed. Just because of the ease of growing, you didn’t have to use nearly as many tricks or tools to kind of mitigate any pasts and that dry arid climate made curing a much easier, faster process.

[00:39:41] So I would say that there is a lot of potential in like the New Mexico area. Even maybe Arizona, if you can find some. Some locate like an Oasis, right. With enough water to keep them fed. So I think that’s going to be the biggest challenge, but I know that a lot of the best growers I’ve ever talked to have mentioned that [00:40:00] dry arid places, the middle of the desert, if you have water, that would be a sweet, sweet place

[00:40:04] Johanna Nuding: [00:40:04] to grow some fire.

[00:40:06] Well, then my family’s ranch might be a hot bed, but I did talk to some growers who were in the desert and. They were using just drip irrigation and yes, I think also with the, the first nations, like if they can get some sort of laws in place, like when I was driving from Oakland back to Texas during the pandemic to hang out with my family for a month and I was driving, you know, I like taking the back roads and seeing things and I was so sad driving through New Mexico and seeing like, Where these tribal nations have been pushed to.

[00:40:49] And I’m like, there’s nobody driving through here to go to your little business or get gas at your gas station. Like there’s. It was just sad [00:41:00] and desolate. And I’m like, if they, if cannabis could turn those Berry micro populated places around, that would be such a beautiful thing.

[00:41:08] Bryan Fields: [00:41:08] Yeah. I think that’s really well said because like we’ve seen when new states come online, there’s such a rush for people to kind of dumped those dispensaries and if they can get a more personalized one-on-one experience.

[00:41:19] It would definitely drive traffic to some of these areas and definitely improved some of the way things are not well. And

[00:41:24] Johanna Nuding: [00:41:24] also there’s opportunities now for like drone delivery and, you know, and trying to create some sort of opportunities where, you know, if there was some distribution center that could be populated there.

[00:41:40] And I just, I don’t know. I just think we can get super creative. And support these communities that have been, you know, downtrodden from the things that our government has done to them. So it’s like, can we make up for that now?

[00:41:53] Bryan Fields: [00:41:53] So Joanna, before we wrap up, where can our listeners get in touch with you?

[00:41:57] Where can they connect? Where can they learn more about the [00:42:00] podcast and the

[00:42:00] Johanna Nuding: [00:42:00] lifestyle guide? I tried to make things super easy just for you. So casually baked.com. At casually baked on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And actually, if you love cannabis and you want to support the cannabis creator community.

[00:42:18] Go to weed tube folks go to weed tube.com. A lot of creators that got taken down from YouTube and were never able to get back on that platform. They crowd funded and put together this site. And so I recently have started my own page and I’m starting to upload some stuff there so that I can help support these other content creators that did get dumped off YouTube.

[00:42:41] I’m still on there, but I create highly responsible. Content that doesn’t ruffle a lot of feathers, but but I recognize that I’m lucky that I can still be there. So we tube.com support it, check it out.

[00:42:55] Bryan Fields: [00:42:55] We’ll link all that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:42:58] Johanna Nuding: [00:42:58] Yes. One thing. If [00:43:00] people are curious about the actual travel piece, there’s a hidden page on my website.

[00:43:05] If you go to casually baked.com backslash travel, you will get to a little form that. Asks you some questions asks what you’re interested in, what months you would want to travel and kind of gets the conversation. Started with me on the cannabis infused travel

[00:43:25] Bryan Fields: [00:43:25] exclusivity to make it fun.

[00:43:27] Johanna Nuding: [00:43:27] Well, yes, and I worked in real estate for a while, and I don’t want to be somebody that you can just find on Airbnb kind of a deal.

[00:43:34] It’s a pocket listing, if you will. So if you know, somebody’s got to know somebody or they’ve just got to heard me on the dime or, you know, whatever that is to find it.

[00:43:46] Bryan Fields: [00:43:46] Well, you just saved me, sending you an email, asking you where the form is because Ellen and I will definitely be taking you up on that trip as soon as we, we get back on the road.

[00:43:54] Thank you so much for

[00:43:54] Johanna Nuding: [00:43:54] your time. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it, guys. This was fun. [00:44:00]

Thanks so much for listening to The Dime . Subscribe or follow us on Seeking Alpha, Libsyn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Play or Stitcher. And we’d really appreciate it if you could leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others find our show.

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Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below, if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

In this episode, Bryan Fields (Twitter: @bryanfields24) and Kellan Finney (Twitter: @Kellan_Finney) sit down with Jason Lupoi Editor-in-Chief at Terpenes and Testing and Director of Laboratory operations at Thar Process to discuss:

  • What are terpenes?
  • How your nose will lead you to toward products that connect with your body
  • How to navigate terpene blends
  • How in the future, the consumer experience will be simplified
  • Cannabis in craft brews and hops

About Thar Process: cGMP Certified and employing people in 3 countries, Pittsburgh-based Thar Process is the global leader in CO2 technology and equipment for the natural products industries.

Website: tharprocess.com

Twitter: @IncThar

Instagram: @tharprocess

Facebook: @tharprocess

LinkedIn: Thar Process

[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: [00:00:00] This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents.

[00:00:10] What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Dime as always. I’ve got my right-hand man Kellan sitting here with me and this week we’ve got a very special guest Jason Lupoi director of laboratory operations at Thar and editor and chief of per beans and testing magazine.

[00:00:24] Jason. Thanks for taking the time. How you doing

[00:00:27] Jason Lupoi: [00:00:27] today? I’m doing good. Thank you guys for having me on. Yeah, we

[00:00:30] Bryan Fields: [00:00:30] appreciate you taking the time. We’re looking forward to diving into a bunch of different, fun topics. We think you’re gonna. Really excited to share with our listeners. So before we get started and dive into those, can you tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into the cannabis space?

[00:00:43] Jason Lupoi: [00:00:43] Yeah, for sure. I went to Iowa state university for my PhD and while I was there, I was, you know, working with plants. The kind of work that I was doing because, you know, I was interested in sustainability and environmentally found pathways for [00:01:00] my career and I was working on renewable energy applications of using different plants and how to characterize those with analytical chemistry techniques.

[00:01:09] And that kind of provided the foundation for me that I knew I wanted to work with plants. I did a couple of postdoctoral appointments and I was. Working at the national renewable energy lab in Colorado. Very briefly. And I got an opportunity to kind of dip my toe into the pool of the cannabis industry.

[00:01:27] And really from the moment I was involved with it, I had known about. When I spent time in California, I knew that the industry was medicinally legal. It was prevalent because I was working in a national lab. I was not like going too deeply into the industry very much. But when I got to Colorado, it was recreationally legal, you know, dispensary’s everywhere.

[00:01:51] And I was very interested in kind of, who’s doing the science in this industry. Who’s doing the lab testing. How was it compared to other [00:02:00] industries? And I got that opportunity to in at least in an ancillary role with cannabis businesses. And I’ve got to say that from the outset, it was an industry that was much more aligned with my own personality.

[00:02:15] I felt like it was the kind of industry where you could let your hair down a bit more. You could have tattoos like I do. You didn’t have to be the cookie cutter. An analytical chemists that you might see in another industry. I liked that aspect because I felt like I could be myself a lot more and from a different vantage point, what I liked about the industry was that everything was brand new and that’s been a struggle at times because things are evolving scientifically and t here might be products on shelves already, but maybe the science is still kind of trying to catch up to that huge growth spurt. But I liked the fact that a scientist could come into this industry and make a difference from the outset because we needed everything. And from some of my other experiences or colleagues, experiences in other industries, that’s sometimes not the case where, let’s just say the gas and oil industry.

[00:03:10] For example, there might be methods that have been used for 50, 60 years. Things have been very well established. That science is known or what happens. And I liked the fact that I could evolve my career in parallel with the evolution of the cannabis industry.

Bryan Fields: [00:03:26]. I think that’s a perfect answer.

[00:03:28] And I think it takes a really specific type of mindset to be excited by the challenge like you described. And that’s the beautiful part of this industry is that the science part is catching up and it takes plenty of years like yourself and Kellan and some of the others that we’ve interviewed to kind of really push the ball forward because this industry is moving.

[00:03:46] The train is going faster and faster, and it’s up to everyone else to kind of hop on the train and get up to speed with it. So before we dive into some of these questions, let’s start with typically one of the hardest ones, your go-to meal [00:04:00] after consuming cannabis.

[00:04:02] Jason Lupoi: [00:04:02] My go-to meal. That’s an interesting one.

[00:04:05] I mean, I tend to like spicy food, so, great tacos or like super authentic something from Latin America produces something along the lines of that would be fantastic.

[00:04:18] Bryan Fields: [00:04:18] Fantastic. Let’s dive into terpenes and testing and the extraction magazine. Can you tell us about that? You know, who does that cater to, a little bit about that.

[00:04:27] Jason Lupoi: [00:04:27] Yeah. When I first became editor in chief of the publications, my goals were two fold, really? And they were to really augment the scientific content that we were putting out, but at the same time, not lose any readership. So I wanted to kind of be the style of reading that you might find in scientific American yet cross that with the cannabis culture that you might see in the juicy and something like high times, I wanted to be like a scientific point in [00:05:00] between those.

[00:05:01] And I think that we’ve been successful in achieving that. So we definitely, most of the people that, that are our readers are people that are. In the industry, it might be extractors. It might be analytical chemists or business owners or cultivators, but we also wanted to generate the content. New people to the industry, whether as you know, being employed in the industry for the first time or being a consumer for the first time as many people in the industry are consumers, we wanted to make sure that those people that might be working at one of these places, but it might not be super familiar with cannabis science and really the   science in general would have a, a place to go to, to seek out some knowledge and, and hopefully read some.

 [00:05:47] Bryan Fields: [00:05:47]In its simplest form. Can you just kind of give a little bit of background about what terpenes are and kind of the unique role they play in cannabis?

[00:05:56] Jason Lupoi: [00:05:56] Yeah. So terpenes are molecules that provide the [00:06:00] characteristic sense, fragrance flavors like sensory information, whenever you are smelling or tasting.

[00:06:07] If you like the smell of a rose or you like the taste of a specific hoppy beer, terpenes play a role in that. And so they’re, they’re ubiquitous in nature. They’re really a part of flowering plants in general. There’s the insects that make terpene. And of course, human beings love terpenes for various reasons.

[00:06:26] And in cannabis, this is you cannot smell cannabinoids. I’ve done some expert witness for. Cases where people have thought, they’ve pulled somebody over and they said, I could smell the THC, but you can’t smell cannabinoids. You can smell terpends and that’s what you’re smelling.

[00:06:43] When you smell a cannabis scent from a specific cultivar. If you smell 10 different cultivars, you may get 10 different fragrances. And that’s basically because of the collection of the different terpenes, all kinds of combining into being the [00:07:00] characteristic fragrance of that particular plant, like a Durban poison, or a golden goat, like they’re going to have specific terpene is unique to them that thereby in part different physiological experiences.

[00:07:11] So some terpenes have been associated with couch lock like near scene and some terpenes  have been associated with anti-anxiety properties, like with a little. And these terpenes are all kind of imparting their different medicinal benefits in the plant is one whole collection of molecules

[00:07:31] Bryan Fields: [00:07:31] So Kellan, from the skunk smell standpoint.

[00:07:33] When, when someone says I smell skunk, is that the THC there’s really cause men. Jason’s obviously saying that that’s not the case. Do you think it’s the BHC or is it the terpene?

Kellan: It’s definitely the terpene

[00:07:43] Jason Lupoi: [00:07:43] Actually the there’s a company called buyer’s scientific that does odor mitigation strategies for grow houses and they just published there, the article might not even be posted yet.

[00:07:55] So this is a bit of a teaser, I guess that’ll be posted by the time the [00:08:00] things come out. They just  feel like they’ve discovered actually in conjunction with my Alma mater Iowa state university they feel that they’ve discovered what molecule causes the skunkiness, and usually skunky things are associated with sulfur containing molecules.

[00:08:16] And they found that to be the case that this is a file or a sulfur containing molecule that causes the skunkiness in cannabis. So I don’t believe it was a terpene. I have not seen any terpene with sulfur in it to date.  I don’t know if those exist, but the ones that I’ve seen in cannabis, I’ve not seen that.

[00:08:35] So I think it’s just a standard bio.

[00:08:38] Kellan Finney: [00:08:38] No, you’re correct. The only other atoms incorporated into terpenes are typically oxygens. Correct. I mean, especially in that natural products category, I think that that’s really kind of an unwritten rule.

[00:08:53] Jason Lupoi: [00:08:53] Yeah. I’ve never, you know, there’s a lot of terpenes out there.

[00:08:57] I can’t say I’ve seen, like I started getting [00:09:00] into try terpenoids from you know, functional mushrooms and, and learning about those and, and writing about those. But even, even there, I have not seen any that are any other atoms besides carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.

[00:09:14] Kellan Finney: [00:09:14] I’ve got a funny story about a sulfur too.

[00:09:17] A lot of growers use sulfur as an organic pasture remediation. Right. And it turns out that that sulfur carries through the extraction process. And when you heat it up, it turns into hydrogen sulfide, right? H two S and that’s not very good for you at all to breed. So I was talking to some other chemists trying to figure out what to do.

[00:09:35] And they, I talked to this older gentleman and he literally was just like, sulfur is so complex from a chemistry standpoint that there are literally just sulfur, Kenneth. And so there’s no way that sulfur is integrated into any of these kinds of smaller molecules, just from a, the size of the adamant B how complex the chemistry is.

[00:09:54] Once they have access to those details. I know that was a little, a little above your pay grade, Brian, but [00:10:00] I thought it was Sharon.

[00:10:02] Bryan Fields: [00:10:02] I never knew that there was specific chemists that focused solely on sulfur. So that was some breaking news for me. And I’m looking forward to kind of asking chemists if, if that’s their preferred style going forward, let’s continue on the terpene pack and take it back to the selection process.

[00:10:15] Tell them we’re in the dispensary. We’re looking to select a product. How did these consumers understand the various benefits that terpene play? With the flour and even more so to probably take it a little more complicated, the terpene blends, do those influence the effects? Can you kind of shed some light on that?

[00:10:32] Jason Lupoi: Yeah.

[00:10:33] Jason Lupoi: [00:10:33] I think in Pennsylvania where I, where I’m located we’re, we’re fortunate because. Terpene or requirement on product labels. And it’s usually the same search teams that are on the label. Some companies have differentiated their product line by including some of  the less abundant terpenes or, you know, ones that might not be as familiar like  or something like that.

[00:10:56] But I think like when I go into a dispensary or when I [00:11:00] suggest, you know, unfortunately a lot of places don’t have terpenes on their menu. I have not tended to see that maybe it’s changed. You know, when I was in Colorado, I didn’t really see that on website menus or things like that. And. So I think it becomes a challenge to try to shop by terpene.

[00:11:17] Now you could potentially smell the product in PA you’re not allowed to do that. Everything’s already pre-packaged. So you’re losing that organoleptic aspect of your person. Of your purchasing power by smelling something it resonating with you. And then you choose that product versus something that maybe didn’t resonate as much with you.

[00:11:39] But when I’ve talked to people and I’ve had the opportunity to even teach some senior citizens here in the Pittsburgh area about cannabis science and, you know, I don’t think you necessarily need to know. Every last terpene that’s in the blend and how that’s going to affect you. Because a lot of the studies of course, are going to be on an individual [00:12:00] terpene and not a consortium of terpene.

[00:12:02] And so I even talked with Ethan Russo before, and I asked him like, if you’ve got a terpene that’s anti-anxiety and you’ve got a terpene, it’s known to cause a little bit of anxiety, is that all coming out in the wash, you know, depending on concentrations and things, of course. And, and he basically confirmed that.

[00:12:20] Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s what, that’s what he’s seen in his career, but I think that you just need to know how this collection of molecules cheated you. Did you feel anxious? Did you feel creative? And I think it’s important to understand that the terpenes are kind of the navigators of the experience.

[00:12:37] So the interplay between the terpenes and the cannabinoids in the product, the whole package is what’s causing the experience and not just whatever the THC content is. So I’ve heard people say how they were, you know, new, new people to the industry say how they were just stunned. A vape pen. They could be much more lucid than when they smoked a bowl.

[00:12:59] And [00:13:00] it’s interesting to me because, you know, people seem to report that when terpenes are at their most prominent they, they feel like that the product was a lot more powerful regardless of what the THC content was.

[00:13:13] Kellan Finney: [00:13:13] And I think that that’s an excellent point. And in Colorado, they still are not listing terpenes actively.

[00:13:18] And so. As a consumer going out and purchasing. I think the system that was developed prior to scientists being heavily involved in this space was the kind of three categories system we have right now, just the Sative, hybrid and Indica. And so Jason, how closely is that current system for classification of in, in reality, it’s really a classification of the different terpene profiles for the various cannabis strains.

[00:13:45] And so how closely scientifically is that tied to. Specific terpene profiles and characteristics and your in your expense.

[00:13:53] Jason Lupoi: [00:13:53] Yeah, I definitely don’t adhere to the sativa indigo hybrid [00:14:00] nomenclature. You know, from what I’ve read and heard from others involved in, taxonomic classifications of the plants, there is zero agreement.

[00:14:10] Indica being a separate species, you know, maybe it’s a sub species, but I understand too at the same time that some people that’s how they’ve chosen to market their products. In my opinion, I’ve seen some, some plants like the purple plants all seem to be categorized as indicas. And, and I think like at this point, most plants are, are hybridized pretty extensively.

[00:14:33] I’m not, I’m definitely not a cultivation expert. It seems like over time, you know, with people, tweaking things is there’s a lot more hybridization than what might, what people might think. And I think that when folks have looked at different classifications like that you know, especially some of the work of like an Arno Hayes camper adjusting the Shadek that have used data modeling to kind of tease out relationships.

[00:14:59] Between [00:15:00] different, you know, either previously conceived classifications, like what you’re saying with indica and sativa, they found that really the differentiators between all of these things are terpene and cannabinoid profiles tend to be pretty similar across a lot of like statistically similar, of course, there’s going to be some differences and outliers, but I think that really, from what I’ve seen, the main differences from one cultivar to the next is minor cannabinoids and terpene.

[00:15:28] Bryan Fields: [00:15:28] Kind of asked you a follow up question from your statement before about the post consumer review of a product. Like we were saying that after you consumed the flour and you felt a certain way, understanding that they’re being blind influenced that. But if you don’t want to have that feeling for the people who are kind of curious and looking to try the product for the first time, sometimes off putting experience, it’s very anxiety.

[00:15:50] Inducing is a horrible one. And then one that leads them to stray away from trying to parks again. From an educational level consumer that’s [00:16:00] interested, but really hasn’t had to try these, these anxiety inducing products. How do they get educated on that to avoid making that selection?

[00:16:07] Jason Lupoi: [00:16:07] Well, I think part of it’s their own, you know, playing scientist and trial and error and just seeing what works for them.

[00:16:13] But I think that, you know, come to terpenes and testings website and read, read about the different terpene. We’ve got a terpene you know, reference. A bar there that talks about different terpenes. And we had the opportunity to write a book called the cannabis terpene experience that dives into the, the science behind different turbines.

[00:16:33] But I think like, you know, again, those are all like individual terrapins. What might Lin a little do for you versus, you know, some other terpene. I think that when we’re looking at cannabis, it’s really the collection of those drinks. And how they make you feel. So you can always look at like other people’s anecdotal reports, you know, how, how did this plant make them feel?

[00:16:54] One of the things that I’m pretty excited about is Mark Lewis out of Nate pro research has recently done [00:17:00] something called keto facts, where when you get a certificate of analysis from the lab, And they do a terpene profile. There’s these really cool plots that show all of these different attributes that people might use to describe how they felt or how they will feel, you know, creative, energetic, anxious, calming, sedated, whatever the case may be.

[00:17:23] But. Play-Doh facts is actually based in modeling of data and profiles. And there’s a lot of science that went into that. So it’s not necessarily just like reading your, if, if a bud tender tells you that this is going to make you feel, you know, energetic because it made them feel energetic. There there’s a lot of science that actually went into it and it’s trying to help people understand how this collection of molecules.

[00:17:50] May make them feel. And I think that’s looking at it as a group is, is really important. That’s

[00:17:56] Bryan Fields: [00:17:56] really strong because I think in my opinion, right now, the dispensary [00:18:00] experience can sometimes be overwhelming for the new consumer. There’s a million products, I think Kellen and I went to one in Seattle. I walked in and must’ve been one of my first 10 that I walked in.

[00:18:09] I was blown away. There was a hundred choices of flour. There was 50 different choices of edibles. They were just products everywhere. And I just kind of stood there. Just overwhelmed. Where do I start? Like where, like, how do I even navigate the, the experiences that for me, who has a specific pallet, because I’ve had some off putting experiences with my anxiety, it was one of those where I was kind of like shell shock that I needed someone like telling to be like, all right, Brian, like, you should just take a step to the left.

[00:18:34] And like, here are the products you should start with. And without kind of understanding like the, the details you just shared, Jason, it could be really intimidating for some people. So. I think the idea of explaining it from a creative and energetic standpoint is a tremendous start in helping the consumer feel comfortable with their purchasing selection, because it is an intimidating experience.

[00:18:54] Now, do you want to dive in from your experience of all the dispensaries? Because obviously you’ve been through a ton and you’ve [00:19:00] seen many consumers including myself kind of walk in. So how do you navigate that and kind of helping a first time buyer make a selection where recommendation there? Yeah. I

[00:19:10] Kellan Finney: [00:19:10] mean, honestly, it’s not cut and dry.

[00:19:12] Because every single state is different, right? Like in Colorado you can go in, they have the cannabis and, or the flower in a really large jar, kind of like back in the day, if you went to your buddy’s house and were picking up. An eighth, right. Or something like that. So like they have all the cannabis in a big jar.

[00:19:31] You can smell it, they’ll pick it up. You can look at it so you can get a lot more kind of personal with that, that choice process. And when I’m with someone in Colorado, who’s never touched it. And they’re interested in kind of purchase some flour, the smell, and those are organic lactic senses that Jason mentioned earlier, that smell is, is huge.

[00:19:49] If someone doesn’t enjoy it, that initial smell of the plant, then they’re probably not going to enjoy the. Associated with it. Right. And so that’s one thing that in Colorado, we lean on [00:20:00] heavily as far as decision-making processes go. But like, like in Washington, you’re not allowed to smell it. They have, they have sample jars out.

[00:20:07] Right. Which is just a glass sealed jar with some buds in it that you can look at and be like, you can turn it up and look at the blood structure, but that doesn’t really tell you a lot, as far as the terpene profile goes. And so at that point, you’re kind of at the mercy of the bud tender. And so if you go out.

[00:20:23] I say, educate yourself a little, right. And kind of play scientist yourself, go out, read a bunch of stuff. Kind of see what kind of aroma therapies you kind of tend to favor. Right? If you’re a big lavender fan, you might be a fan of Intercos because from my experience, indicas tend to typically have a little more linalool in them, hopefully.

[00:20:43] And then there are some brands out there that do. Terpene testing and make an effort to put those analysis on their labels. And so then you can at least kind of fall back on that and then having an open discussion with the budtender. Don’t just take everything they say as like the [00:21:00] word of God. Right.

[00:21:01] Kind of giving them pushback and being able to have an open-ended discussion with. Will really help you navigate that. But right now it’s just tough because it’s, it’s a state by state situation. Some states let you look at it. Some states won’t even let you look at it. You know what I mean? And so it’s really challenging.

[00:21:16] I mean, Jason, is there a method that you kind of came up with when your friends came and visited you when you were living out in Colorado to kind of help them navigate that, that same kind of

[00:21:24] Jason Lupoi: [00:21:24] obstacle. I think that you brought up a good point there about testing out some aroma therapy things and things like that.

[00:21:31] Because what I was working on researching for the cannabis terpene experience, I started to understand like, okay, what is the full realm of plants that a specific terpene is prominent in? You know, I knew that linalool was in lavender and of course pineys and pine and all those sorts of things. But beyond that, What plants are these other, you know, I tried to give maybe five to 10 examples of the different plants, you know, and there’s, there’s [00:22:00] one I think it’s the terpene near a light, all that’s in corn and tomatoes and things that you, you know, you really wouldn’t be expecting, especially when you know about cannabis.

[00:22:09] Terpenes I think it’s interesting that you can look throughout nature and it started identifying really that there are definitely, I migrate towards specifically. I came to the understanding that these plants that I migrate to very diverse, you know, flowers or teas or cannabis or hops, they all tend to have some of the same dominant terpene.

[00:22:32] And so it’s like, my nose is telling me, Hey, you need. And so I found that that’s what works for me in that, like, I just kind of took stock of what other plants am I really into and what are the terpenes that are in those plans? And at the backend of, of our book, we put an appendix that kind of dived into the scientific literature.

[00:22:54] A lot of gas chromatography results to look at here is a specific essential oil, [00:23:00] lavender essential oil or rose essential oil, whatever the essential oil might. What are the dominant molecules in those essential oils. And then I was able to kind of understand, okay, so these are the molecules that I kind of want to look for whenever I’m seeking out cannabis products.

[00:23:17] And plus I also, you know, I started to understand some of the medicinal properties of different terpene. And so there are definitely ones that I look out for personally. When I have access to the information, like I said in Pennsylvania, I think that I’m not sure if this has changed, but at one time it was just Pennsylvania and Nevada that had required terpene to be on product labels.

[00:23:41]I would hope that other companies have taken it upon themselves to kind of lead by example and put terpenes on their, on their product labels, because I really do believe that it’s what changes have one product from the. Especially if you’re talking about flour or, or, you know, eight, 10 or something like that.

[00:23:58] So I think that’s kind of, what’s [00:24:00] worked for me is to just brainstorm of what plants do. Am I, am I into, and then seek out plants cannabis plants or cannabis products that tend to have higher terpenes and linalool is definitely one that I migrate to across various plants is Jasmine or other types of teas to lavender, to different hops.

[00:24:20] It’s very prevalent and what I, what I tend to migrate to. So I think like that kind of coincides with what you were saying there, and with the aroma therapy understanding, I like this type of, of aroma therapy oil. It does the job for me, and then understanding what terpenes are in that essential oil. And then looking for those.

[00:24:39]Where possible in the cannabis industry that’s really

[00:24:42] Bryan Fields: [00:24:42] well said. Is there any sort of cross knowledge between, let’s say in like the beer industry, towards the cannabis industry, with the terpene, where if you are looking for a certain type of mal and paste with the beer and that work with the cannabis side as well?


[00:24:57] Jason Lupoi: [00:24:57] I mean, I’m not sure if I understand.

[00:24:59] Bryan Fields: [00:24:59] So, [00:25:00] for example, you were describing how there are certain terpenes you look for in the experience and then use that as kind of a barometer. I’m making a selection in the cannabis process. Does that work with the. Your industry towards the cannabis industry? Yeah.

[00:25:13] Jason Lupoi: [00:25:13] Well, that’s a good question. Cause I, you know, I, I tend to migrate to hazy hoppy beers and I haven’t really met one. I haven’t liked. So you know, I’m not like I’m not feeling like anxious from one and, and I don’t really know what levels of terpenes are in these different beers. I just know that people that are doing a lot of dry hopping you know, Pittsburgh is becoming amazing.

[00:25:35] For super hoppy hazy IPA. And unfortunately there’s nobody like testing that, you know, getting a certificate of analysis on a website for a beer. I’d personally love to see that being kind of a data nerd. It very well could be. Like, I know that some people have different. Like my, my wife, for example there’s different hops that tend to invoke an allergic [00:26:00] reaction.

[00:26:00] As a matter of fact, we were growing hops on our property and you know, if you touch it, like some people will, will show like a red line on their skin. So there’s definitely some skin irritation, some kind of allergy. And then other hops don’t seem to invoke that same response. So I would say there’s gotta be a physiological you know, outcome from drinking one type of, of ACI IPA to a different based on the ingredients that are coming out of the hops into the beer.

[00:26:30] You know, so I think there’s probably some justification there, but I just, I don’t have any data that I could point out.

[00:26:37] Kellan Finney: [00:26:37] No, and I have that same experience, but with canvas, because I remember walking through the field and there were certain, certain cannabis plants I’d touch and my entire skin would break out red and be super allergic and other strains, nothing would happen.

[00:26:51] And I mean, I know that Cannabis and hops. And a lot of these plants produce the terpenes as a means of natural pest mitigation, right. To kind of help [00:27:00] them survive in nature. And so there’s gotta be the reason would most likely be to deter creditors from eating their flowers. Yeah.

[00:27:09] Jason Lupoi: [00:27:09] Yeah. I mean, that’s actually one of my favorite.

[00:27:12] Things about the terpene is that it has this, I think it was a guy named Jim hole that had coined this, this he had written an article for terpenes and testing and he called it the strange Jekyll and Hyde world of the terpene. And I love that because, you know, we’re looking at the, the terpene throughout this conversation.

[00:27:33] And just often in general, from the perspective of the human being, but from the herbivore that’s, you know, chewing on it. What I find amazing is that the plant can produce terpines in response to that. And those responses can be either maybe just the, the bug doesn’t like the taste of the terpines And so it just flies to a different plant. But I think the even cooler aspect is that the terpene almost serves as like a, [00:28:00] a modern day smartphone or a means of communication because the plant can sense that it’s being eaten. And it can release these terpines and somewhere out there, you know, the terpene is floating along the breeze and there’s a predator out there that gets that phone call and comes to the plant’s rescue and eats the herbivore.

[00:28:20] And this has happened with spider, my predatory mites, and I, I think that’s like an amazing poetry in nature that know this can serve as kind of a communication line for the destruction of a specific type of predator to the plant. I find that to be really amazing.

[00:28:37] Bryan Fields: [00:28:37] I need that Netflix documentary now, because that is, that’s an incredible story on how you just described it.

[00:28:44] So let’s, let’s take one more step forward, Jason. Obviously we can add an audio industry has got a ton of misconceptions in your opinion, what is the biggest misconception in the cannabinoid

[00:28:54] Jason Lupoi: [00:28:54] industry? That’s a great question. It’s one. I always ask everybody. So you’re putting me on the spot here. [00:29:00] You know, I think that, that the biggest misconception, and this is probably maybe cliche, but unfortunately it’s still prevalent.

[00:29:10] Is that the more THC, the better you know, when you. Pharmacological responses. You often see this like bell-shaped dose response curve where low doses of something and high doses of something, you know, may have very similar effects, but it’s often those middle doses that are much, much more efficacious.

[00:29:29] It’s like this with certain vitamins, you know, you don’t. Eating stockpiles of, of a specific vitamin, because in some, after you get to a certain concentration, it’s not going to be beneficial. And in some cases, maybe it’s harmful and definitely not trying to imply the THC at 95% would be harmful, but I’m just saying.

[00:29:50] Products become a bit one dimensional. And I think that understanding that driving the potency through the roof isn’t [00:30:00] necessarily going to be the most effective. If you’re taking the product or ingesting the product specifically for a medicinal attribute like anti-anxiety or, you know, pain relief, things like that.

[00:30:13] You’re not necessarily going to get a better. Benefit just because you’re doing a dab versus, you know, something that might be a little lower and yeah,

[00:30:22] Bryan Fields: [00:30:22] perfectly said. And I think as the consumer educates themselves, when they walk into a dispensary, I think the overwhelming experience, they just kind of mean towards, if you want to get really high, you’d grab the one with the highest THC and that’s the easiest way to make a selection.

[00:30:35] And I think dispensary’s are really smart and they raise the prices of that. Everyone kind of makes money on there, but I definitely agree, Jason, I think as the industry evolves, I think that’s going to be a really big misconception that gets kind of revealed. We’re going to ask two questions before we dive into the prediction, you could sum up your experience in the cannabinoid space into one main takeaway or lesson learned to pass [00:31:00] on to the next generation.

[00:31:02] When would that be?

[00:31:02]Jason Lupoi: [00:31:02] Well, I, I think that I would have to go a bit political and say that, you know, the fact that cannabis is still a schedule, one drug, in my opinion, is a crime against humanity. In addition to some other schedule, one drugs like psilocybin, but we’ll focus on cannabis right now. I think that’s the one main takeaway that I, that I would impart to somebody that what you have heard for 80 plus years.

[00:31:28] Reefer madness and, and, you know, go back and watch some of the old films like reefer madness or marijuana. And understand that those were meant to be serious and not fun. Like, you know, cannabis culture, movies that they turned into. Like that was actually the status quo. And the fact that media could be so, you know, damaging to a very benign plant, I find to be really something that exemplifies absurdity you know, in our, in our history.

[00:31:58] So I think that’s, [00:32:00] that would be the main thing. The last

[00:32:02] Bryan Fields: [00:32:02] time you consumed any cannabinoids.

[00:32:05] Jason Lupoi: [00:32:05] Wow. Thanks. You have taught on after this too. So last night for sure. You know, medicine is meant, you know, often when you go to the doctor you’re told to take something daily. So, you know, that’s, that’s essentially how I feel.

[00:32:25] Bryan Fields: [00:32:25] Prediction time, five years from now. Will her paints be a popular selection, characteristic of users walking into a dispensary who select a product? It, yes.

[00:32:38] Jason Lupoi: [00:32:38] How will

[00:32:39] Bryan Fields: [00:32:39] users understand which  communicate, which feeling about it?

[00:32:44] Jason Lupoi: [00:32:44] Yeah, I think most definitely that’s the case. And I think that color coding will be one of the more popular options to do that.

[00:32:51] Some brands have already started to do that. I don’t know when I’ve seen the color coding, like in some of the brands here in Pennsylvania. I don’t know if they’re color [00:33:00] coding based on terpene profiles. If I was doing it and that’s what I would do. You know, there’s, there’s ways that you could, like I talked about, you know Nate pro researches, phyto facts, something like that, where you can take this, all of this information and make a graph like that, that shows all of these different categories.

[00:33:20] You can then know I’ve got the. 300 different plants I’m growing, or maybe that’s crazy. You mean 30 plants that you’re growing? How do they all compare chemically as a whole, not just in cannabinoid profiles, not just in terpene profiles, but that full chemo VAR. How does that compare from plant a to plant B?

[00:33:39] And I think what’s important for the consumer is, you know, I found a product here in Pennsylvania that I really love, but I can’t get it anymore. This hasn’t been on the show. For a long time. So what product is there that I can actually take that will be. Will resemble that same experience. Like I tend to look at different [00:34:00] cannabis.

[00:34:00] Plants is they are different products. Is what type of music do I want to hear? Some plants definitely drive me to want to listen to specific types of music and Austin. I’m looking for the plant that I’m cool with. Whatever’s on. And if I feel that. And I feel like very content by that product. I want to be content all the time.

[00:34:20] Right? Like that’s a great, good stress relief. So that’s where I feel like if, you know, I’ve migrated to this brand, you know, specific color, I, I like the purple blends. Not, not purple having to do with like cannabis purple, but just how they color coded. I think that that’s going to be kind of something that helps consumers have reproducible experiences, you know, as a scientist, like the lack of reproducibility in the experience isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but, you know, because it is part of the experience, it is part of the trial and error and you get that.

[00:34:56] It’s kind of cool to try different things and experiment in [00:35:00] different ways. I mean, that’s like the, the lore of the scientist, but for somebody new to the industry, if they have a bad experience, the first time around this plant could significantly benefits their quality of life. And yet they may not come back to it.

[00:35:13] And I think that’s what we need to prevent is responsible product manufacturers is making sure that people really understand what they’re ingesting besides just a cooler or, or funky cultivation.

[00:35:26] Bryan Fields: [00:35:26] It’s gonna be tough to follow that up. Do you want to take a swing?

[00:35:29] Kellan Finney: [00:35:29] I mean, I agree with exactly what Jason said.

[00:35:32]I know that for an example the company I worked for in Washington, it was called leaf works. And we went with a different variation of the Endeca sativa hybrid kind of model. And it was kind of playing on the feeling aspect and how the user or the consumer. Feels after ingesting the product and we call color, coordinate it.

[00:35:51] We called it the mood dudes. Right. And so it was like chilling, which was more of the IndyCars that had higher linalool concentrations. Right. And, and [00:36:00] then there was like, go get ’em, which was like a yellow color and the, in the. Chillin was blue more of like a relaxing color from an aesthetic perspective.

[00:36:09] And the sativas were, were a yellow kind of more of an active color. Right. And then the hybrids were like an orange, right? And so we were implementing that colored coordinating system to try to differentiate the products on the shelf. And I mean, it was really well received and I know that there’s going to be a lot more work that needs to be done on that front, but you can see the.

[00:36:32] Smarter brands out there are starting to move that way because it’s really, really challenging to communicate the magnitude of information associated with. These chemical terpene profiles on different plants. I mean, there’s probably over a hundred different terpenes that are ubiquitous to cannabis. I know that some labs right now are only testing for 60 or 70.

[00:36:57] And even then it’s, it’s kind of [00:37:00] overwhelming, just even as a, as a, as a scientist, when I go through some of those CLA is it’s like, okay, like, what am I even looking at here? There’s 10 terpenes I’ve never even heard of. And they, they literally are in less than one point, 1% concentrations. And so. That type of information is so hard to digest and internalize in a decision-making process.

[00:37:19] So infographics are going to be the way to go. And I think color is probably the easiest way. I’m really curious to see, see how many kinds of categories it ends up breaking down into if, if it is just going to be the three categories, there’s going to be a lot of, kind of Room for air within those, I guess I would probably, I would bet that it turns into maybe five or six different categories and you kind of see different ones evolve over time.

[00:37:43] I would, I would kind of compare it to maybe the, the wine industry with kind of Appalachians and, and that whole aspect. You can have a  from California and you can have Kianta from, from Italy. And there’s going to be subtle differences between those two different wines. And that’s [00:38:00] really has to do with, with the grape and where it was grown and the different chemical profile within that grape.

[00:38:05] So I could see the cannabis industry kind of following something like that, right. Where you have your Keon tase and you have your Chardonnays and you have all these different kinds of systems to categorize those states. Types of cannabis plants. And so that’s where I see it going similar to exactly what Jason said.

[00:38:23] I mean, as a non-scientist Brian what would be the easiest. Way for you to kind of make that decision processes, color coordination, easiest. Do you like the wine system? Where’s your head at

[00:38:37] Bryan Fields: [00:38:37] coordination is definitely the easiest, but it has to be introduced universally, right? Like it has to be one where I walked into dispensary here in New York and I can see the same colored graph as I do in Colorado, because we want to make the experience exciting and enjoyable and handing someone like myself, a binder.

[00:38:54] When I walk into a dispenser. For the first time in Colorado, I don’t have times review the [00:39:00] 7,000 products. I want to know, you know, roughly the type of experience and like you were saying Kaelin, it doesn’t have to be pinpoint exact because it’s unlikely that they can do that. Just has to be in the ballpark.

[00:39:10] And I just have to know personally that when I pick up a certain type of flower that going to have an anxiety attack, because I’m using the flower to help calm myself and to calm these nerves, not to excite them and to put me into the corner where I had to go to sleep in the night. I think kind of adopting a universal standard is the best way for, you know, the average person who’s interested in kind of learning about the product that doesn’t have the chance to go onto the websites to educate themselves pretty intensely, but it’s age roughly than learning about these possibilities.

[00:39:39] Like you were saying, Jason, the only way people are going to really learn is to experience it. And if they have that off-putting experience, especially that first time it’s so critical. Cause they’re, they’re likely unlikely to go back anytime soon if they have such a negative first-time experience.

[00:39:54] Jason Lupoi: [00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:54] And I think ultimately like, you know, when I look back over history and those 80 years that we’ve [00:40:00] been said a lot of misinformation, you know, I wonder how many people could have benefited from the plant. Taking modern day people that aren’t being necessarily subjected to that style of, of disinformation.

[00:40:14] And there’s now they’re getting an abundance of information in the other direction. I think. It’s critical that every person who can benefit from cannabis try it and see if it helps them in a way that maybe more traditional, modern pharmaceutical medications may not have. And I feel like that first experience, or maybe the first several experience, if they’re buying multiple products is a dispensary their first time out.

[00:40:43] I think it’s it’s. That they, they have as good of an experience as possible, and it’s not always going to happen, but I think that being able to you know, and I think that’s where some of the apps have come into play too, you know, there’s, there’s an app for everything. And, and I think there’s been some apps [00:41:00] out there, like relief app that allow consumers to kind of keep a, a phone.

[00:41:05] Diary of how they felt on different products. Like I’m old school. Like I like to have an Excel file with all of the cannabinoid and terpene information from different products that I’ve had and put different classifiers there about how I felt and try to go back to some of that in the future. But I think that for a brand that’s looking to You know ensure that their consumers have a reproducible experience.

[00:41:29] There’s definitely some options out there. I think about a paper that was published, where some researchers in Nevada measured the, the cannabinoid and terpene profiles of something like 396 differently names. Cannabis plants and that all boil down to three basic chemistry. So people were taking three basic chemistries and labeling it with 400 different names.

[00:41:55] And that becomes a real challenge to a consumer to try to digest it. And then you end [00:42:00] up just buying by the plant name. Cause it sounds. Versus knowing something about how the chemistry is going to treat you. And I think that’s, that’s the real important part of purchasing a product, especially for new timers.

[00:42:13] And it’s, it’s kind of a struggle sometimes when I go into dispensary’s and I see how they’re portraying things and they’ll ask you questions and some of them have really started to list out the top four or five. Terpene here in the Pittsburgh area, at least I think that’s a great way to go because it’s at least providing that extra information.

[00:42:33] But again, like for somebody that’s a lay person that doesn’t understand what they’re looking at. Like, you know, I really feel like the color coding could be a way to go to really simplify it and make it visual and give people the best opportunity to have a great first cannabis.

[00:42:49] Bryan Fields: [00:42:49] Perfectly said. So Jason, for our listeners that want to get in touch to learn more about you and the magazine, where can they connect with you and get some information?

[00:42:58] I’ve got a

[00:42:58] Jason Lupoi: [00:42:58] simple email [00:43:00] address, [email protected] or [email protected]. You know, you can visit our websites. We’ve got a bunch of stuff there. You know, we have all those standard social media platforms, including LinkedIn. So I’m on LinkedIn as well. I’d be happy to answer any other questions.

[00:43:16] Somebody might have to the best of my ability or if I don’t know the answer it sounds like great fodder for a new blog topic. So if. As I like when people saying questions because it gives us some real-world consumer or reader insight into what we should be covering next. So I’d be happy to happy to chat.

[00:43:35] Bryan Fields: [00:43:35] Awesome. So I’ll link those off in the show notes. Thanks for

[00:43:38] Jason Lupoi: [00:43:38] taking the time. Thank you guys. It was great to talk with you. I’d love to do it again sometime. [00:44:00]

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