Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
This week we are joined by Josh Smith, President of Telic Labs. We break down the importance of working closely with your Cannabis Lab and how they are often overlooked as a valuable partner.
Challenges Testing Labs face & Reverse Engineering the results.
The Importance of in-house testing for Cannabis Operators
Why Potency shouldn’t be King anymore’
About Josh Smith President of Telic Labs:
Focused on molecular biology and designing specialized technical laboratories, Josh has 15+ years of experience in pharmaceutical R&D and highly regulated clinical fields. Having been awarded several specialized patents and leading teams to innovate DNA diagnostics, Josh’s center of activity revolves around accurate testing methods and technologies. As a member of ASTM and AOAC, he lends his knowledge towards policy, procedure, regulation, and industry standards
This show is presented to by 8th Revolution:
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in regard to the hemp & cannabis industry. Our forward-thinking team can diagnose, analyze & optimize every detailed nuance of your company to keep your business safe, smart, and profitable. Our flexibility and experience combined with ongoing research create unique insights into how to best grow your market share. Contact us directly at [email protected]
Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24
Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Josh Smith: What’s
[00:00:02]Bryan Fields: up guys. Welcome back to the episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always as ke Finney and this week, we’ve got a very special guest Josh Smith, president of Telic labs. Josh, thanks for taking the time. How you doing
[00:00:14]Josh Smith: today? Great. And I’m always glad to be chatting with you guys. It’s always a fun time.
[00:00:19]Bryan Fields: Absolutely. Ke how are
[00:00:20]Kellan Finney: you doing? I’m doing really well. I’m doing really well. Looking forward to, to chatting with Josh who’s in the Midwest, right? We decided it’s not west coast or east coast. How are you, Brian? I’m doing
[00:00:31]Bryan Fields: good. I’m excited to figure out where Josh fits in on the map and kind of dive some of his specifics and to hear more about the, the lab side of the industry.
[00:00:39] So Josh. Before we kind of dive into some of those areas. Can you give a little background about you and how you got into the cannabis
[00:00:45]Josh Smith: space? Yeah, so I’m, uh, originally from, uh, one of the rust felt holes. Um, I was, you know, Penn Tucky is what we like to say, but, uh, and it was two hours north of Pittsburgh.
[00:00:58] I grew up in, [00:01:00] uh, if my dad didn’t hay, uh, hay fever, I would’ve been seventh generation on the same dairy farm way back when, and, uh, I got out of that and moved, went to grad school in, uh, was of all places, Wisconsin, and, um, ended up getting into clinical microbiology and did pharmaceutical R and D for 10 years.
[00:01:25] And then while I was shopping around and trying to get a patent that I’d put together, uh, licensed, uh, some people that I was kind of working with and. Came up with a great idea to start a lab in this brand new cannabis industry originally was, uh, focusing on the he CBD space and decided, because I was living in Madison, Wisconsin at the time.
[00:01:49] And I knew all about, uh, you know, some places where I could get relatively cheap rent and things like that. Plus you, my yearly permit was a hundred dollars. [00:02:00] Rather than we, we all know, uh, the multi thousands for everybody else. So it that’s kind of where we started. And now that was in 2018. And, uh, just as of last December, the MRI made it official.
[00:02:16] So we just, uh, purchased into a cannabis testing lab and, and Warren, Michigan ABCO lambs. And. That’s kind of where we’re at. Well,
[00:02:26]Bryan Fields: congratulations on that. And so let’s stay with, uh, 2018 when you first got into this space, any hesitation about kind of diving into cannabis. And did you approach the industry kind of wide eyed and kind of with big momentum thinking I can accomplish it, then, then have a big learning curve.
[00:02:41] Can you take us through that?
[00:02:46]Josh Smith: Oh, 2018 was a shit show. to be absolutely absolutely blunt. So coming from an industry, especially like a highly regulated one such as, uh, the clinical world and pharmaceuticals, [00:03:00] um, there methods are, are established, done. I mean, you have everything from the sample. Transport has been so characterized that every step of every stage has been not standardized, but at least has been characterized.
[00:03:21] So you know what you’re gonna get. In 2018, there was no published anything for just about anything. And, um, so we had to go through it and literally design all our tests and our testing methods from scratch. Because of course, no one else wants to tell you how they’re doing it because quote, trade secrets, which is not how that works, because get done at a hospital.
[00:03:48] Like, for example, if you get a, uh, diagnostic test for using PCR in a hospital in the packet, you get your results, it tells you the exact sequence that was, um, [00:04:00] amplified the exact probe sequence that was targeted, and exactly where at, in each chromosome that gene is. And they will tell you everything about it.
[00:04:10] So, That’s not the way it is in cannabis, as we all know. So we, I spent a lot of time digging through old FBI crime lab methods and kind, and my lab director down in Madison, uh, Megan, we, we spent a lot of time doing through it. It was. And then of course, was the, are you doing total THC? Are you doing Delta nine?
[00:04:32] Are you doing Delta? You know, THCA are you do, are you drying it? Are you not drying it? How’s this being done? And there was the Delta Knights only states. Oh God. It was a, just a mess. would that
[00:04:48]Kellan Finney: be exciting? Right? Cause it’s like you’re pioneering, like scientific research again, instead of just following instructions from someone 30 years know, I mean, they’re kind of
[00:04:57]Josh Smith: exciting a little bit.
[00:04:57] Well, yeah, no, that’s actually a really good point. [00:05:00] Um, when, so when I was an undergrad, uh, that was when. Sanger sequencing first kind of really came in big, like you could find people were publishing a, they would send something in sequence, a gene and publish paper, and no one knew what the hell the gene was and what it did or anything about it, but they published it because they, they did it.
[00:05:22] It was, it, it was the one of those big, big times. And those big leaps were just, you get this brand new technology. And I never thought I’d see something like that again. Now with cannabis, you know, we have all this technology, but there’s been a hundred years of a gap in the science of it. And it is a wide open field.
[00:05:45] I’ve got a list of probably 35 papers that I would like to kind of work on for, you know, publishing like stability data know, and just all these different things. It’s, it’s insane. How much is out there [00:06:00] to be taken care of and run with. So, It’s exciting. It’s very exciting.
[00:06:05]Bryan Fields: Is it daunting at the same time though?
[00:06:07] It has to be kind of mildly daunting. Absolutely. Especially when you’re starting off. Right. There’s, there’s so many obstacles and so many paths for you to kind of proceed. And then when you start and you’re used to kind of the highly regulated space where, you know, there’s a path forward, there’s instructions, there’s details and you go to open up the space and you’re like, where’s my
[00:06:23]Josh Smith: reference documents.
[00:06:25] Yeah. It it’s, it’s daunting. I at heart, even though I’ve spent a lot of time in the. In the highly, you know, in the clinical side and I am, I’m actually an R and D guy at heart like that to me is fun. Like sitting down, developing the new thing. And as, uh, assay development is actually one of my forte. Um, so it’s one side just daunting for the she, your list of things that needs done.
[00:06:54] So like every it’s that to do list that once you check off that one box, all of a sudden you’ve got 10 [00:07:00] others that spun off of it that you need to fit into. But, uh, and it, it can seem overwhelming and I can, it, it definitely, there are days, but overall I think it’s a very exciting and for one industry to be in.
[00:07:18]Bryan Fields: So let’s talk about kind of the exchange with the industry and how those conversations take place. Can you take us through, let’s say a normal or standard interaction you get approached by, let’s say an operator who’s interested in the test. Can you kind of take us through the standard conversation?
[00:07:31]Josh Smith: So it’ll, it’s gonna vary between your states. Um, the first biggest stepping stone is, um, do you, does the lab have to go and pick up samples or can you. On the license side, as in the CBD side, can somebody email it to your lab in a box kind of thing? So usually when somebody comes in, they’re like, oh, I want to do this.[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] I need a full panel test. Okay. Well, what state? And what’s your full panel because that’s gonna change. Thank you. Thank you, state for not being that standard. Um, and then.
[00:08:14] well also to throw it in there for the love of God. Can somebody at the state level, when you’re adding on microbial tests, ask a microbiologist before you pick the test. Oh, that’s too hard, please, please, please do. Total. Aerobic is a worthless. It is a completely worthless test. It tells you nothing, except your space was dirty.
[00:08:38] That’s it? There’s a lot of stuff there. Uh, anyway, so , as you’re going through it, you know, there, there’s all sorts of little guidelines, but it’s like, okay, well what’s your sampling amount? How are you sampling things? And every single person that I’ve ever spoken to, [00:09:00] the first thing they ask is what is your turn and around time on your results.
[00:09:04] Hands down. That is the big question. Some places that’s regulated, uh, for example, Michigan, if you, for your microbial results, you have to do plating for total use to mold and it requires, and you’re mandatory to hold it for 72 hours for it to grow up. You can’t just do PCR, which by the way, a total Eastern mold PCR, anytime you enrich a sample, that’s a no go.
[00:09:31] You cannot quantitate after an enrichment. So little, little micro nod there like it, but, uh, you know, and then eventually price comes up. It really depends on your local area and how bad, how Benley they need it and want it turn around. But for the most part, well, it’s been a while since I’ve had somebody call up and ask me, uh, how much to get the COA that they want.[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] But, uh, they happen fairly regularly. Uh, the big thing that I have seen, especially in the more unregulated side on the hemp and CBD, uh, you know, the Delta eight, the THC, all of those things is please, God guys learn how to sample properly. Two, uh, one, two gram bud does not mean. The same. It’s not going to cover a 50 acre field to know if it’s highest potency part of the plant.
[00:10:38] And that’s one plant. Yeah. I mean, but if it’s the best plant, but if it the best plant, an accurate representation of the population, it is absolutely not. I’m on IAC and ASTM committees to help put that together. And, uh, and actually, I think one’s out to ballot now for the ASTM, but this plant is [00:11:00] so variable as we all know the different side and bud size from top to bottom.
[00:11:04] Right. But actually there’s been papers that show, even from the farthest out on the plant, uh, limbs to closer to the main stock, it changed your percentages will change drastically all over. And then plant plant variability is just crazy. This isn’t like corn where you can just say, oh Nope, 120 to is a harvest.
[00:11:28] It’s you’re gonna get all sorts of, depending on your nutrient levels, your, you know, your local environments, your brain, your outdoors, your indoors, it’s so variable and hell. Even if you’re tracking a field, I always tell people if you’re one of those, if you’re going to go the he CBD or out, make sure you pick a sacrificial plant.
[00:11:51] And that is the only plant that you test for. To monitor for your THC production, because if you pick different plants, it will [00:12:00] kill you because you will never get the exact same amount in the same. You’ll never know, and you’ll probably miss it, which also if it is in the field and it’s a CBD plant, it will go hot.
[00:12:12] It’s only a matter of time.
[00:12:13]Bryan Fields: Yeah. So I wanna stay on the full panel real quick. So let’s say an operator approaches you, and let’s say in a certain state, they might not need a full panel testing, but obviously it should be encouraged. And do you, is it on you to kind of work back and forth with the operator and encourage them to take the additional test?
[00:12:29] Like how does that fit? Because at the end of the day, right, if there’s end product, that’s gonna be consumed by an individual. We want to make sure that it’s safe and, and there’s gotta be some sort of like, uh, isn’t it
[00:12:39]Josh Smith: required. Well, it depends on your state. So he CBD side, the, and this is also includes the Delta eight and except for very, very few states, the only thing that is required is that it is below 0.3% total THC.
[00:12:56] That is it. So, and that is usually just [00:13:00] the plants in the field. This usually doesn’t even go anywhere near the processors. So if you’re in the he CBD side, you really. Don’t have to do anything. Um, so from what I’ve seen in the lab directors that I trust across the us, I’ve never seen a, well, sorry. I’ve seen one legal Delta sample ever.
[00:13:23] Usually it’s somewhere around 7% Delta nine. I actually don’t think it’s shelf stable.
[00:13:30]Kellan Finney: No, it’s not. We’ve had conversations with pharmaceutical chemists who say that it readily, I smizes over, um, just in the presence of like any moisture at all. Right. So if you just have like moisture in the air, it’ll grab a proton and instantly I summarize over what we’ve been told for sure.
[00:13:44] So that literally explains the,
[00:13:46]Josh Smith: the results that you’re seeing from, well, I would also too. And have you ever played, have you ever got your hands on the, uh, like an isolate or, uh, sorry, the concentrated Delta eight. It’s like Affy. Yeah, [00:14:00] it is so pro. So in order to get it in the carts, you gotta heat it. And then you’re exposing it 100% and you’re also shipping it other, you know, an unheated trucks and you know, all these CARSs
[00:14:11]Kellan Finney: right.
[00:14:12] You don’t think they have really stable environmentally shipping
[00:14:14]Josh Smith: conditions, hazard or anything. And then you have, they’re all clear tubes as well. I mean, so you’re not even keeping ’em out of the UV light, which breaks even remote. So do you feel like a sense of
[00:14:27]Bryan Fields: responsibility though? Cause that’s gotta be kind of challenging for you where you know, you’re doing the tests here or they’re not doing tests and you’re trying to kinda encourage them to take additional steps.
[00:14:37] Is that a really conflicting
[00:14:38]Josh Smith: balance for you? Yes. Uh, cuz it is a business. Right, right. Yep. You know, and that’s, and every time somebody fails a test, there’s a good chance they won’t use you anymore until there’s some, uh, until states start cracking down on labs and actually making sure that they aren’t doing sh funny shady [00:15:00] shit.
[00:15:00] Um, but I like to tell people that.
[00:15:09] I understand that it costs a lot of money for a test. I mean, in the scheme of things like in, is it a lot when you’re actually looking at anything else? No. You know, your 500 bucks a batch for your test is, or for your imagine marijuana in the scheme of things, it’s low on the totem pole, but it’s an added cost, right?
[00:15:33] Um, from the, on the, he CBD side where CBD braces are horrible. I really understand that. I think they’re starting to climb back up, but I mean, I, I get it. What I usually will tell people is even I do what you can, if you’re trying to do it right, you can always do one and then break it down. Like if you are making concentrator, you gotta distill it.
[00:15:59] Just get a [00:16:00] full panel of the distillate once. Then edit your carts that are coming down from that. You can always point to that dis distillate, COA and say, look, I had it done here. You know, I, we only did it for here, like some states mandate of what you can do or not. Um, but you know, occasionally you run into things like in Michigan, in 2019, the concent were testing fine, but the shotty VA hardware, uh, that people were packaging him in was giving people academy and poisoning.
[00:16:32] Nickel poisoning for which one? Um, so I mean, and then the other problem is that you have all these people that are trying to skimp on costs, but as soon as federalization comes through, they’re gonna be so shell shocked when the testing requirements come through. From the FDA and the U S D a that I don’t, [00:17:00] they need to start getting, preparing themselves for that kind of thing.
[00:17:03]Bryan Fields: Why do you think they’re gonna be shell shocked?
[00:17:05]Josh Smith: Uh,
[00:17:06] the, especially the FDA side, they do not like to reinvent the wheel. They are government agency and,
[00:17:13] you know,
[00:17:13] you start looking at stability expiration dates, right? Any consumer package. Good has to have an expiration date on.
[00:17:22] if you want to do that properly, that proper stability study is gonna cost you 10 to 20 grand per SKU They’re also gonna require actual beginning, middle and end of batch, or end of lot batch testing.
[00:17:37] And that to equally salmonella aspergillus is gonna turn from three into about 15 to 20. And
[00:17:44] it’s, you’re gonna be your full foodborne panel.
[00:17:47] So, you know, You can do compound selecting. You can get, do compound batch testing.
[00:17:56] I mean, it, it happens in other like meek packing industry, right? They’ll, they’ll take [00:18:00] samples from various batches and lots, and they will compound ’em into a bigger sample. So you can get a lower li limited detection. You don’t have to test as much, but all these guys that are thinking they’re gonna get away with just a.
[00:18:15] $30 potency test, better start planning because it’s gonna get expensive and it’s gonna knock out some of, I mean, there are probably gonna be grandfathered in rules. You know, if you’re just set yourself up like a food grade, kitchen, get ready for it. Cause as long as you’re trying, a lot of times they do kind of give you some leeway, but you know, if you’re not heading towards GMP, which requires all of that.
[00:18:40] Batch testing and lot testing and all that. You’re gonna get left in the dust. Yeah. And
[00:18:46]Kellan Finney: I think future proofing your company, right? I mean, we are aware that this is the testing that occurs in other consumer package, good industries. Right? So like building those in to your, your cash flow statement [00:19:00] or mm-hmm, your balance sheet, right?
[00:19:02] From a business perspective and understanding that you’re gonna incur
[00:19:04]Josh Smith: those costs mm-hmm
[00:19:06]Kellan Finney: future pu proof is your. Future proofs your organization, right? From a, a cogs perspective. So you may not be paying ’em now and you may be experiencing higher margins, but like that’s what working with someone like you, Josh can provide an, an operator, right?
[00:19:22] Is they can open up this dialogue. And be like, okay. When it is fully certified and say it’s federally legal, you have that experience from your past life. And so like that’s a huge advantage working with someone like you. Correct?
[00:19:35]Josh Smith: Yeah. Uh, I like to think so anyways. yeah. well, you know, one of those things and I like to say, and I like to tell the people that we’re a part like we’re all in this industry together.
[00:19:46] Yes. I mean, I’ve, I mean, I’ve jumped into the industry too, and if everybody fails, We all go under, like, you know, so, I mean, I’m not, I’m not the cops, I’m here to keep you honest [00:20:00] for what you’re saying it is, but I’m not the cops. I, I want to help as much as possible. You know, if something comes up, you know, I can help possibly narrow it down or give you those tools you need.
[00:20:11] And, you know, there’s always ways to work around things and to help out it, it really comes down to, are you trying to be shady and do it on the, you know, just make a quick buck or are you trying to do the right thing? and, you know, like we started offering environmental samples. So like there’s multiple things you can do at various stages of the industry.
[00:20:30] Like, so if you’re just setting up your green room or your row rooms and your clean rooms and all that, you can actually have, uh, labs. Some of them offer it. Some of them don’t, uh, go in and do environmental sampling. So you can check your. You know, mold counts in your clean rooms before you put anything in, you know, to make sure you have it set up right.
[00:20:51] Or your sterilization processes are working right. You know what a concept,
[00:20:55]Kellan Finney: making sure it’s clean before you
[00:20:57]Josh Smith: move it.
[00:20:59]Bryan Fields: is there [00:21:00] someone in particular you wish heard that Calvin
[00:21:02]Kellan Finney: no, but I mean, it it’s so crazy, cuz this is really important. Like people don’t think of these things when they, when they jump feet first into this kind of the industry.
[00:21:09] Cause they’re excited, you know? Yeah.
[00:21:11]Bryan Fields: Turns out dirty material in dirty
[00:21:13]Josh Smith: material out. Garbage and garbage out, right? yeah, shit and shit out. Yeah. We all deal with, uh, you know, and a lot of these guys, like, especially from the CBD side and the crash in 2019, you know, corn prices sucks. Soybean prices suck. I mean, everybody’s just looking for a way to dairy’s tanked, you know, they’re, they’re trying to make a buck to keep their farms alive and this was a good cash crop.
[00:21:37] They, so, but they all jumped in, got taken advantage of by a bunch of guys that had. We’re selling ’em bullshit seed that tested hot instantly. You know, these guys, they didn’t know about the, what questions to ask. So I spend probably
[00:21:56] not as much anymore, but it used to be about half of my day, every day [00:22:00] would be education talking to some client notes, a new farmer or a new grow or whatever, and just walking through steps with them because it there’s so many. The learning curve on all sides is so steep right away that, you know, if you take it some time and think about these things up ahead, it saves you so much time, but also too.
[00:22:25] I mean, it’s, there’s some pretty specialized indu areas in this. Like, you know, you can tell a lot of the cannabis industry’s been, especially on the side until now having a micro background has really kinda given me. An interesting viewpoint in this, because there’s, you can tell who was making the rules besides politicians that didn’t know, or just told what to put in.
[00:22:51] Um, so one of the things
[00:22:53]Bryan Fields: that I, I really enjoyed in our conversations is the value add in, in the exchange of the relationship with let’s say your [00:23:00] lab and the operating. So for example, if an operator, you know, puts you off a sample and it tested for pesticides, and I. Gave the example as that, but I know in the past, you’ve kind of worked through back with the operator on how to diagnose that problem.
[00:23:13] And I’d love
[00:23:14]Josh Smith: for you to share more about that. Yeah, that was actually kind of where I was gonna lean into from that last. So I I’ll just, I’ll just rattle off the, uh, the test as I’m going through and you can tell me when to shut up and move on to the next step deal. So we’ll start with, uh, potency. Um, usually most people are doing this on an H B.
[00:23:34] Sometimes it’s on a gas chromatogram when you hear that weird funky conversion rate on it, that 0.8, seven, seven from an H B, but for the total, um, that’s actually to make it in line with GC gas chromatograms spec. So when you inject something in a, a gas chromatogram. It will instantly [00:24:00] decarb your THCA into Dell nine.
[00:24:02] So you will not see any acid form of anything. And it’s just about 88% effect. Yeah. Right. About 88% efficiency. So when you take something from an H P you have to do that 87% conversion to get them to be equal so that it will match up with. You also can occasionally see things on your H HPLC, your potency, where certain food dies and certain other compounds can mask your, uh, potency numbers, uh, or some orange dyes seem to cut your, um, potency in about half.
[00:24:42] Also. I’ve seen some labors for whatever God knows reason I’ve seen strawberry flavoring and beverages cut potency levels. I can know.
[00:24:51]Bryan Fields: Why can you lean into that a little bit? What, like, can you
[00:24:53]Josh Smith: explain what that means? Yeah, so basically the orange dye, [00:25:00] so an H HP C, when you run it through it, actually, it it’s a liquid column.
[00:25:05] So high pressure liquid pro photography, which basically means you take a sample, add it into liquid and put it through a long column that export. By size time, charge, whatever. And so you’ll get these peaks at certain. They’re called retention times. Well, if you run a, there’s also the detector on it. So you’re running at a UV is one detector.
[00:25:31] So you’re running at 220 nanometers. Usually somewhere in there. There’s very two 20. Uh, if you hear a PDA or a D a D, which is a di detector, Or, uh, that means you can get a range of wavelengths that’s preferable because it has a secondary confirmation cause all your cannabinoids have different peaks, but, um, for whatever reason, at certain wavelengths of light, these [00:26:00] dyes will mask an overshadow or under light up certain cannabinoids.
[00:26:09] So orange dye or some orange dyes are known to do this. This is also why, uh, there’s such a problem with getting accurate potency numbers of chocolate because it masked, I think it’s the fats in it, but they mask kind of the true potency number. So it’s that one was a bitch to figure out. So it could be
[00:26:31]Bryan Fields: higher.
[00:26:31] The potency actually could be higher than what the, the number shows or could
[00:26:35]Josh Smith: be lower. Yes, it a little, both. It depends on your, it depends on which one it is, but yeah, with the, especially with the, uh, the chocolate, it’s usually the potency will be higher, but there’s also a sunflower, less a fit for what somebody was making a gummy with sunflower lesser than as their binder.
[00:26:56] And they were coming up about a third, third short [00:27:00] of their potency numbers that they thought, or like I’m putting it in. I literally watched them put it into a batch. Like calculations, math, everything looked right. I could not get a full extraction on it. I could not get that number. And it always came in about a third low, just whether it was being bound up or who the hell knows.
[00:27:20] But so if your potency numbers aren’t coming out the way they’re supposed to, especially in your edibles, look at your formulations. And try subtracting some of those ingredients from your, uh, from your formulations first, because it might actually, you might be fine and perfectly good, but the where your lab is getting things tested or where you’re testing things at that lab, they might be using a technology that is masked by your ingredients.
[00:27:49] This is all also why you should always have a backup lab. Always
[00:27:53]Bryan Fields: do operators have internal tests in order to kind of validate the results or to, in order to like, do some of those [00:28:00] internal testings
[00:28:00]Josh Smith: that you’re talking about, you can, and there are ways to do it, but for example, a cheap H P C UV is gonna run you somewhere around 30 to 40 grand.
[00:28:12] Um, the certified reference standards that I buy are about a thousand bucks a month and, um, you know, you, then you have to do your annual maintenance, preventative maintenance contract, which is 5% of your purchase price every year.
[00:28:29]Kellan Finney: Probably need a, some semi-intelligent human to make sure that it’s given you accurate and precise results.
[00:28:35] And I mean, this is exactly where, and then you factor in the fact that none of these companies have access to traditional financing. Right. And so like all of these create this, this kind of like mutual synergistic relationship that’s required. So like not only are third party testing labs. Providing like safety and EF efficacy testing for the consumer, but you’re almost also serving as like [00:29:00] a, a pseudo R and D lab for
[00:29:02]Josh Smith: operators.
[00:29:02] You know what I mean? Mean, and, and a lot of times, like for metrics stuff, like we will, you can do R and D you know, not. Officially in the system. Right. And we’re all about that. I would love, I have helped worked with a lot, especially on the CBD side, but you know, I’ve worked with quite a number of companies and operators and processors that they’re looking to.
[00:29:24] Perfect a system. You know, there are ways if you’re actually, if you want to do potency on your own and you are looking for a good way to do it. By a GC F I D, which is a gas pergram flame ionization detector. You can get ’em for dirt cheap, you know, like five, six grand, you, and they’re very easy to service.
[00:29:45] There’s almost nothing to break on them. And it doesn’t take a rocket science to run ’em and it know that if you do that, You’re gonna have to do all the background. You’re [00:30:00] gonna have to make sure it’s working properly. You’re gonna have to do all of the steps that we do normally. And, but it’s also not gonna be the official test so you can do in-house testing, but it still has to go out for compliance as, as it should.
[00:30:15] I mean, you shouldn’t be able to do your own compliance testing. I mean, it’s, that’s a little bit of a conflict of interest. You don’t trust me.
[00:30:23]Kellan Finney: Do you trust? I swear. I swear. No, it’s always 99%.
[00:30:28]Josh Smith: I swear. I’m from a place where banjos play. I don’t trust anybody.
[00:30:33]Bryan Fields: So Josh staying on that topic is
[00:30:35]Josh Smith: potency still king.
[00:30:37] As of right now, it is, it shouldn’t be, but it is what should be king. Okay. There’s a two part answer to this. And that still ties back in with what you were saying or with a different test. So there have been studies done and that show 16 to 18% potency is the sweet spot. [00:31:00] Anything above that seems to max out your receptors, you just get there faster is basically what happens from these papers.
[00:31:09] Um, you know, there’s all sorts of anecdotal stuff. And quite frankly, until I see it in a journal, you know, it’s. Does it lead me to believe certain things. Yes. But until you can prove it, you know, uh, there’s also, whenever you take a blind judging and you don’t show them the cos firsthand a 16, 18% will win hands down as long as it’s got a good dine profile and really when it comes down to it, and this is my take on it, terpenes are the most undervalued underutilized.
[00:31:44] Test that you can get, it is your marketing. It is absolutely hands down. That is your marketing. When you go to a dispensary nowadays and you cannot like the consumer cannot actually, they, they don’t they’re most of them are [00:32:00] uneducated, right. They know I’m going to buy some pot and I want to get high that that’s all they.
[00:32:06] So they just go for the highest THC, because they want the most for their money. But look at alcohol, you can buy grain, alcohol, moon shine. But most people don’t cuz it tastes like ass yeah. , that’s, that’s really what it is. People want to go for a good barrel aged whiskey with all those flavors and ROS, you know, talk to any IPA drinker and hear about your bricks, your hop, your IBUs, the, the five different types of hops that they pulled outta some German backyard.
[00:32:36] You know, I mean the whole thing, and this comes down to also. When as the industry grows and federalization comes in and the big boys come in, your Winston Salem, your Anheiser Bush kind of type people. They’re gonna beat you on potency. They can mass produce like Matt. [00:33:00] You gotta take the small craft brewery, craft winery route.
[00:33:03] If you’re going to survive because you cannot beat them on their margins. It’s you cannot, they’re just too big. Their economy of scale is too far gone. So take those terpene profiles and treat it just like whenever you go to the liquor store and you go to buy a bottle of wine and they have those little description cards sitting there, that is what you need to do.
[00:33:26] And that’s how you sell it to your people. You know, take notes of, you know, if it’s limiting pining and embarrassing. You know, citrus flavor and aroma with hints of, you know, X, Y, Z, and a peppery finish, right. You know, a pine notes and a peppery finish. There you go. That will give you something. I have a friend that used to work as a liquor distributor and a liquor distributor.
[00:33:53] And he said, as soon as they put those cards up, sales of that wine went through the roof, but it’s because [00:34:00] people, even if it’s wrong, cuz most of those labels are bullshit. He even said, he’s like, most of these are just somebody typed those up, you know, it’s the monkey and Shakespeare kind of thing. Um, is that even though they could be wrong, it still gives somebody something to think about all.
[00:34:16] Yeah. You know, I actually knew somebody that was planning on taking a gummy and, uh, um, with no THC in it and adding the exact blend of terpenes that was in his flower. And then giving that to bud tenderers so that they could give that to them and say, Hey, this is an approx, this is the terpene profile of this bud here.
[00:34:42] Try it. See if you like it. Just another way to kind of think, but really that’s where the education’s gonna come down the road. I mean, really that’s to me is the test. I mean, that is the one that makes you of the money.
[00:34:55]Bryan Fields: What is one concept or statistic that an industry [00:35:00] operator wouldn’t know.
[00:35:02]Josh Smith: from your experience operating a lap?
[00:35:07] Ah, uh, I don’t think we got enough time for all of that. um, , I’ll go with the, with the easiest one. Um, if you grow outside, you will fail, used to mold hands down. Um, also on the CBD side. If you’re going to be below 0.3%, 10% CBD is your max it’s at that point, it’s math. So anybody, anytime you go to a CBD shop and you see 20% CBD on that flower, that’s marijuana.
[00:35:50]Bryan Fields: what areas do you see growing in, in testing importance over the next five years?
[00:35:57]Josh Smith: Uh, couple actually I’ll spin this [00:36:00] back to those tests and what they mean. And I’ll run through these really quick pesticides are simple, right? But be careful if you’re testing semi high for a pesticide and you don’t use them, it could be because it’s your clones, myco, buttin is famous, is known for this.
[00:36:14] Whereas if you have it in your cl owns, it will propagate through and you’ll never test positive. I do think the just general, the Ana the specific test, I think you’re gonna see those panels grow. Um, and for things like heavy metals. So if you’re seeing lead your, uh, your water filters are going bad, chances are, it’s not in your soil.
[00:36:43] It’s it’s most likely bad pipes in your water. Uh, arsenic. Have you been, are you grown in rock? Woo. if you have checked your lot numbers, because sometimes they source from volcanic places and you’re gonna get higher arsenic in your, uh, in your rock wall. Also, if you got rat traps [00:37:00] anywhere else in your, uh, grow room, you could be picking up the arsenic from it.
[00:37:04] Um, I don’t know. Have you guys ever have in a lab have, uh, played around with, uh, some of the equipment? Like, do you know what ICPM S is. Yeah,
[00:37:16]Kellan Finney: I’ve run. I ran an ICPs for two or three years doing uranium bium analysis. So I’m very familiar with all the heavy metals you don’t think, uh, you’re not gonna say don’t use a mercury thermometer.
[00:37:26] That’s the one where honestly, like, I’m like, we’re really testing for mercury right now. Like, like what?
[00:37:32]Bryan Fields: Yeah.
[00:37:33]Kellan Finney: I mean, I understand it’s very dangerous, right? Like that’s, that’s a heavy metal. Right. But like, if we’re gonna throw my well test for the range, what else is dangerous? Right? Like that’s had to just one little
[00:37:46]Josh Smith: out box moment.
[00:37:47] Oh no, no, no. I. I was, I still remember I had a grade school. I actually had a teacher that would, we could poke it around on the desk with our finger, you know, nowadays that’s full hazmat places shut [00:38:00] down. um, uh, so like, but like mercury that’s, that’s gonna be in your soil, right? I mean, that’s maybe soil or water most of the time.
[00:38:11] You shouldn’t see it. I mean, there’s gonna be there, but like, for those of you out there that don’t know what an CPMs is, it’s inductively coupled plasma. Mass spectrometer, basically a gigantic plasma, welding torch, hooked up to a mass spec. That’s holidays. Very, very, very fancy one, but you know, it’s a hillbilly socket set.
[00:38:31] Um, and I. You know, so like, uh, nickel CA, and this is actually an example from that I just had, so my dad was a machinist, uh, after he got off the farm and, uh, for about 30 years. And the only reason I picked up on this and I’m actually gonna be running some tests to kind of narrow down and prove this the other day.
[00:38:52] But we had, somebody had tested deposit, did for nickel and cadmium tested hot on their, um, CBD flower. [00:39:00] And. It’s like I ran the soil tests beforehand. There’s nothing in there. It’s all good. Um, but he had a brand new Buster and his trimming machine that he brought in. Uh, he had rented from somebody. Ooh. A lot of times when you nickel and CA usually from the finishes they put on stainless steel or, and, or other machinery.
[00:39:26] So when you get a brand new piece of machinery, even if you clean it out, especially something that violently breaks things off. After you clean it thoroughly, you wanna actually run some garbage through it, things that you’re never gonna touch. You’re just gonna throw away, burn whatever, because there are little pieces and little burs and little Nicks on a brand new piece of machinery that need to be cleaned off.
[00:39:51] They get dulled off. And if you don’t run through something that just takes that, beating those shavings, those pieces, [00:40:00] that dust is gonna be on your product. And so it will then show up in your tests. So I’m 99% sure. That’s what this person was having. Cuz he had a brand new busing machine. So.
[00:40:16]Bryan Fields: How is he supposed to know that though?
[00:40:17] Like how I, I mean, it’s the
[00:40:19]Kellan Finney: same reason your mom makes you wash the shirt after you buy it, right? Yep.
[00:40:23]Josh Smith: Yeah. Like Kevin, when your
[00:40:24]Bryan Fields: mom’s not there to do that, I know right
[00:40:26]Kellan Finney: now you’re an adult.
[00:40:27]Josh Smith: well, Brian, I mean, a lot of times this is, this is why I chat with the lambs. I mean, we’ll help you. And, and we don’t, we do a fairly poor job of telling people what these tests actually mean to you and why they matter.
[00:40:41] Cause it’s not just about, uh, You know, being able to sell your shit. And yes, that’s, that’s the big part of it. But your process is gonna have a breakdown. If the, if you fail on some of these tests, it’s because your process might have broken down. So for example, uh, water activity and moisture content [00:41:00] similar, but very different things.
[00:41:02] Moisture content is the total amount of water in your product. Water activity is the amount of water that is available for microbial growth. So if you pass your water activity, but you fail your microbial tests, particularly mold Eastern mold or whatever that tells you, it happened after your drying room.
[00:41:27] That’s where your breakdown was. It could be in your storage. It could be, you know, I’ve seen total coliforms, um, in the dry coming from the drying room, but it was because they were using those mesh webbing, drying net things. And it’s just like a sponge one. They’re good until they’re not, you know, they tell you never put a sponge through the dishwasher because it only gets nasty or faster.
[00:41:49] It’s the same exact thing. No matter how much, if it’s porous. You can only clean off the surface. You will never get the bacteria that have migrated into the surface.
[00:41:59]Bryan Fields: How many [00:42:00] people get that results from you and understand exactly where to pinpoint, let’s say out of a hundred?
[00:42:07]Josh Smith: Well, I would say mostly because now I’m the one explaining it to them after they call them.
[00:42:13] But hypothet
[00:42:14]Bryan Fields: though, if, if, like, let’s say out of a hundred people, they get the results from you. How many of those 100 would know. Where to start and where to focus on like analysis 10.
[00:42:25]Josh Smith: Yeah. 10%, 10%, maybe, especially on the bacterial stuff. You know, if it’s east and molded is almost always your, he filters and your ventilation are going bad, it looks
[00:42:35]Bryan Fields: like you’re like, where’s Wal, right?
[00:42:37] He’s like, where do I even start? He’s like, well, this is.
[00:42:40]Josh Smith: Quite a problem we have now. Well, and a lot of times it’s all about your airflow. Think about, I mean, think about like when you’re, if you grow tomatoes, right? They tell you to take the leaves off the bottom of the plant so that you can get airflow back and forth.
[00:42:55] Otherwise you get blight and mold growth, same thing with cannabis. Look at your grow rooms [00:43:00] with the hands on. Are there dead spots because your overall room might be getting enough airflow. But those dense spots aren’t, they’re gonna have microclimate. So the, the, if they’re, they’re also gonna be higher humidity.
[00:43:14] And so those plants can infect other plants also it’s best. If really all, what you should do is buy a $15 Anter off of Amazon, a cheap one works just fine, just to have an idea and check an various spots around your grow rooms. And then also too, don’t buy from a cannabis vendor. You don’t wanna pay the cannabis tax.
[00:43:35] Go to a cheap farm supply company, get one of those gigantic ass fans that they use to blow up and down the, uh, barn aisles and put that in your grow room at pot level, not at canopy level pot level. So you can get more airflow through your plants as they’re growing, rather than just coming in from the top that will help with your Eastern [00:44:00] mold problems.
[00:44:02] So at, for tests. As things grow and where I see things expanding plant wise, I think it you’re gonna see a lot more yeast and mold being tested for. You’re gonna have people starting to pick up on like hop late and Viro, which we test for. It’s a, it’s an RNA piece, CR which RNA is a pain in the. In grad school and my first job outta grad school, you would mark off with tape your corner if you’re doing RNA work.
[00:44:35] And then if anybody would walk near it, you’d shoot them because it was the only way to be sure that they would never touch your stuff. And cuz RNAs are everywhere. They break down everything and it’s such a pain in the ass to work with. Um, but, uh, you’re gonna see as we characterize the plant more and we find out what we should actually be testing for.
[00:44:55] Cause you know, and. Here in flying over country in, in the rust belt, [00:45:00] you’re gonna look at for different microbials than you would and desert, you know, in Arizona and California and Tennessee, and they’re all gonna be different. And so that’s gonna change to be a more regional thing. Uh, the consumer package, good side.
[00:45:17] I mean, that’s gonna increase on your microbials hands down. You’re gonna be looking at a 15 to 20 foodborne panel, just like in every other industry under the sun. I mean that little Debbie cake off the corner, you know, off the, the gas station shelf goes through a huge testing regimen that we’re gonna have to adapt to cuz the feds aren’t gonna change things.
[00:45:40] Um, I think from my standpoint as a cannabis lab I think focusing on it being strictly cannabis is the wrong move. Um, psychedelics are next. You’re not planning for them. You’re gonna get left behind. I also think you’re gonna start seeing the other drugs coming up [00:46:00] personally. I think the psychedelics are gonna go legal before federally, before marijuana in cannabis.
[00:46:05] Whoa, whoa.
[00:46:06]Kellan Finney: Hot
[00:46:07]Bryan Fields: take right that
[00:46:09]Josh Smith: yes, sir. Take a, take a look at who is spending the money on psychedelic research. It’s a lot of money. It’s all coming from the VA or the department or defense. They wanted PTSD treatment and nont treatable depression for, yeah. So that’s why it’s gonna go federally legal first.
[00:46:31] All right. Well, you’re on the record, so, well, welcome there and now live. I will be happy to be wrong on that one, but, um, you know, with, with that though, then we’re gonna have to do this whole thing again, right? It’s gonna be 2018 all over again. How do you get yours? Ibin your solo, all the different other.
[00:46:51] Uh, molecules that people are aiming for, then you’re gonna be typing these things. I mean, no, I mean, you can grow them, but no, one’s actually gone through and characterize and [00:47:00] fungi are a pain in the ass. So now you’re gonna have to be able to type and strain type all of these. They’re also soil remediators.
[00:47:06] So you’re gonna have to do your heavy metals, your pesticides, your antibiotics, anything that is in that growth media will be in that mushroom. And they have SIM
[00:47:14]Kellan Finney: synergistic relationships with bacteria too, right? Like that’s a symbiosis symb.
[00:47:18]Josh Smith: That’s what I was looking for. Yep. And, uh, your contamination will be bacteria, so you’re gonna have to do all the same microbial testing for it.
[00:47:27] So, you know, It’s gonna be the wild west for a little bit as it gets settled in, but think we’re just used to living in the wild west at this point. Right? We are the wild west. totally. Yes. So, but I think, you know, and then you’re gonna be, I mean, ketamine Ika I have a gain, you know, and then I still think you’re gonna start seeing all the other ones as they start.
[00:47:52] You have some states and some countries that just decriminalize all of it. You know, if you’re not. [00:48:00] And Portugal.
[00:48:00]Kellan Finney: Oh yeah, Portugal too. That’s right. I forgot. I always forget
[00:48:03]Josh Smith: about that one. I think isn’t didn’t Oregon and Washington basically just decriminalize everything. Yeah, I
[00:48:09]Kellan Finney: think so. Something like that.
[00:48:10] I mean,
[00:48:11]Josh Smith: one step at a time, the one step at , but I mean, that’s, that’s the future and I don’t think that’s too far down now. Do I think it’s gonna be recreational psychedelics right away? No, I think it’s gonna be a lot more like consumption lounges kind of thing, but. Josh.
[00:48:26]Bryan Fields: There’s people here in the United States who think if you smoke cannabis, your kids will die.
[00:48:31] So like, I, I mean what you’re talking about and where we need to go from, let’s say United States standpoint, I’m hopeful. there is, there is Brian lives in New York
[00:48:40]Kellan Finney: and they still haven’t figured out how to
[00:48:42]Bryan Fields: sell legal cannabis in New York. By the time this drops. But hopefully we’ve done
[00:48:47]Josh Smith: it. No, there’s no chance at all.
[00:48:49] No, there’s no chance. Wisconsin doesn’t even have a medical program yet. So I can’t say much there. I dunno the whole, the whole
[00:48:55]Bryan Fields: drug industry. You’re right. There’s a lot to be remain seen and it’s gonna be exciting, but I think your [00:49:00] poise and I think the educational direction you’re doing is so, so important.
[00:49:03] And I know where I believe a lot of those conversations, things are likely challenging because operators are looking at you more of like a, as a necessary evil versus a value add in the relationship. And I think. Hearing these insights are so important. And I would encourage operators to take that approach and to speak to people like yourself, to align more with the end direction so that you guys can work in synergy moving forward.
[00:49:26] So I got two final questions and then we’ve got your prediction. Since you’ve been in the Canna industry, what is the biggest misconception?
[00:49:35]Josh Smith: Uh, surprisingly. That hemp and C D is still cannabis. Like people don’t put together that it’s all the same plant, you know, it’s just one is like, it’s like, pitus, one’s got a blue flower, one’s got a red flower.
[00:49:54] I mean, they’re the exact same plant. And. That
[00:49:58]Kellan Finney: was a good description. I haven’t heard it. [00:50:00] That was really good. I liked that for tune years. I’ll
[00:50:02]Bryan Fields: remember that one. I like the same, same but
[00:50:04]Josh Smith: different. Yeah, same, same, but different. like when I talk to people, now I try to say high THC and low THC cannabis smart.
[00:50:14] Try to. Try to move things that way. Um, you know, that would freak
[00:50:19]Bryan Fields: people out here in New York. I think a majority of people would be like, I understand, am I gonna get high or not? And you’re like, that’s not really the threshold
[00:50:26]Josh Smith: for a thing. All right.
[00:50:28]Bryan Fields: If you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson, learn to pass onto the next generation, what would
[00:50:33]Josh Smith: it be?
[00:50:35] Oh, uh, well, I’ll give you this. Oh, if you’re just looking to jump into this industry to make a buck don’t. It is you, especially if you’re looking to start your own business. And I mean, this is kind of the whole thing, you know, if you’re just looking to start a business to make money, there’s always easier ways to do it.
[00:50:57] Right. But especially [00:51:00] in a plate, in a, in it’s the industry that is still growing this much, that regulations can change on a dime. From state to state, you know, you really gotta have a strong stomach and you really, really gotta have to want to be in this industry. Otherwise it’s gonna chew you up and spit you out really quick.
[00:51:24] that’s really well said. Yep. All
[00:51:27]Bryan Fields: right. Prediction time, Josh. I’ve dropped you off in Washington, DC. You’re in charge of everything right now. You can implement, change or influence. Any one policy to help move the cannabis industry forward.
[00:51:41]Josh Smith: What would you change? Deschedule it and bands down. That’s it? You wanna make things easier?
[00:51:50] Deschedule it completely because if you, if you put it into where they were talking about it, [00:52:00] moving the schedule two, that puts it into the pharmaceutical industry and then, you know, They’ve already got this figured out. So who’s they
[00:52:10]Bryan Fields: all, or I haven’t figured
[00:52:11]Josh Smith: out, uh, a few pharma places. So I, I, I’m not gonna name names on this one, but you can look this one up pretty quick.
[00:52:19] I, if, if I were in pharma and still, and I were looking to up on this train, which everybody expects them to be doing, they don’t want to deal with plants. They don’t wanna deal with farmers. They don’t wanna deal with any of the inconsistencies. If I was going to do it, I would do it just like they do insulin.
[00:52:42] I would clone the machinery, the genetic machinery for creating cannabinoids and do a yeast vector, which I could then put into a 5,000 liter bat fermentor, grow it up to a, a, a, a massive cell density, tossing an induction molecule, and then spin out [00:53:00] the yeast. And I have almost completely 100% pure cannabinoid.
[00:53:07] There are two companies now that are multibillion dollar lawsuits for that exact technology, because it’s finally came out, fighting over the, the
[00:53:16]Kellan Finney: synthesis right now. Right. That’s what
[00:53:18]Josh Smith: they’re doing. Fighting over the use effect. One was a British company partnered in the us. And I think the other one was a Canadian company partnered in the us.
[00:53:29]Kellan Finney: Al TRIA owns one of them. I’ll drop the
[00:53:32]Josh Smith: names.
[00:53:33]Kellan Finney: I mean, metabolic engineering is like a little heart straight. You just plucked for me cause oh no. Yeah. That was my, that was my background. Right. Is metabolic engineering, so.
[00:53:39]Josh Smith: Oh, gotcha. Yeah. I mean, so that’s, that’s how I do it and they did it. So again, with that whole trying to compete with those guys, you’re not going to, because they can, the amounts, the asked for them to produce that single VA is a 10th.
[00:53:56] Or less of what it costs you to have a growth [00:54:00] for everything. So they’re gonna beat you. Do you think
[00:54:03]Bryan Fields: that helps drive down the end price of these products? Like, do you think that the consumer ultimately wins in some areas on there because the price decreases or you think it kind of levels out and their margin just
[00:54:13]Josh Smith: raises?
[00:54:14] Uh, well, it, because it’s pharma, they’re gonna gonna lock it under a patent and they’re gonna keep the price high forever on that one. Um, and I say this lovingly coming from pharma. Uh, and a guy with a few patents. Um, well, Kelly hates you now. oh, that was a pain in the ass. Um, that process four years, I think for me, for the one of ’em.
[00:54:36] Um, but eventually yes, that will bring prices down, but. This is where the entourage effect, this is where the terpenes, this is where all those other molecules that are part of that plant come into effect. Again, if you want a good dis uh, comparison, you’ve got your a hundred proof. Barrelage 12 year [00:55:00] whiskey with all of those extra notes and aromas, you, you know, the experience where you add that drop of water to really let the oils bloom compared to hams.
[00:55:15] PDR, but like, you know, in Wisconsin, we all, we call them mineral water, you know, it it’s, it, it it’s shit. And it gets the job done, but you’re not enjoying the process very often. Right. I think it was the founder of Dogfish brewing, like to say. If you can’t drink your beer warm it’s shit. Beer. I can drink a
[00:55:37]Kellan Finney: warm PBR on a river though.
[00:55:39]Josh Smith: I’m just,
[00:55:41]Bryan Fields: on a river
[00:55:42]Josh Smith: is one
[00:55:43]Bryan Fields: thing though.
[00:55:45]Josh Smith: If that’s on the option or, or, uh, you know, wait over New York, you, you might have American over there or iron city. I’m sure. You’ve scene. Uh, Ugh, [00:56:00] Keystone key on the blind, you know, beast. There you go. We’ll go with beast. That’s a good universal one. Milwaukee’s best.
[00:56:05] It is horrible. It tastes like garbage. It tastes like it’s warm all the time. Well, thanks for it. May not be the best
[00:56:11]Bryan Fields: Milwaukee Milwaukee’s best. So Josh, for our listeners who wanna get in touch, they’ve got questions and they wanna know how you can help them. Where can they reach you?
[00:56:20]Josh Smith: Uh, [email protected] that’s T E L I C L a bs.com.
[00:56:26] Uh, my email address is just [email protected] Um, and I spend my days between Madison and Detroit. So kind of it’s a crapshoot to find me in per person, but most likely it’ll be in Detroit for a while. Awesome. Hopefully I’ll also be on, uh, presenting at the analytical cannabis. Northern, uh, north American expo here in a couple weeks.
[00:56:51] And, uh, anytime you guys wanna bother having me back on, I’m sure I could find me around. absolutely love. Yeah, we’ll definitely do that. Thanks so much for your [00:57:00] time. Josh only get all open the show notes. Oh, absolutely. Thanks guys. It was.