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How can cannabis operators stay up to date on the every changing regulations from state to state? Today, we present a solution with Dede Perkins, CEO and co-founder of ProCanna.
ProCanna is a SaaS compliance, operations, and knowledge management solution for the cannabis industry. They are helping MSO’s elevate their business and stay ahead of the curve.
Stream this episode to hear
Overcoming fear in the cannabis space
Future cannabis regulations
Best compliance practices
High standards for cannabis
Figuring out the cannabis business as it grows
ProCanna is a team of cannabis industry professionals who understand the challenges of running an efficient, compliant, and most importantly, profitable cannabis business. ProCanna allows owners and operators to confidently implement, maintain, track, and share proof of compliant operations in a cost-effective way.
Learn more at https://procanna-usa.com/
Follow The Dime Podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/thedime_8th?lang=en
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[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangent. What’s up guys. Welcome back to that episode of dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is my right-hand man. Tell him Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Deedee Perkins CEO, and co-founder of pro Canada.
[00:00:22] Thanks for taking the time Dede, how you doing today?
[00:00:24] Dede perkins: I’m great. Thanks for having me on your show. I’m happy.
[00:00:27] Bryan Fields: Looking forward to that. Kellan. How are you doing?
[00:00:30] Kellan Finney: I’m doing well. It’s sunny out here on the west coast and I’m going to just try to hold down the west coast fives while we got another east coast guest on.
[00:00:37] Bryan Fields: I look at you kind of dive in. I was going to ask Dedefor the records to stay in their location, but thank you. That is another one for us. And I think we’re keeping a move and I’m excited to kind of tie them up at the end of the year and see kind of what that split is. So Didi, before we kind of dive into some of the questions, can you give our listeners a little bit of.
[00:00:55] Background about you and how you got into.
[00:00:57] Dede perkins: Sure, you know, full disclaimer. I never [00:01:00] expected to be in the cannabis straight in space. So that’s, it’s interesting. It’s been quite a journey, but I was a writer or am a writer and in 2013, one of my clients said, you know, that she had someone who needed help with an application.
[00:01:10] And could she give him my name? I said, sure. It turned out to be a consultant who was working on one of the first competitive. The Massachusetts medical. I knew nothing about medical marijuana at the time. It was a little taken aback, really just didn’t you know? And so it had to do a little bit of research before I decided to accept the position I did.
[00:01:28] And man, I’ve never looked back. I mean, that process was compelling that a lot of people at the national level, we ended up winning that license and just started getting work from. Big companies, small companies, consultants, you know, I mean, there was so much work to be done, whether you were, you know, doing marketing, you know, patient testimonials, whether you were writing regulatory content for applications or employee, you know, policies, SLPs.
[00:01:53] Anyways, it was it was a really fast paced educational and business processes within 18 months. My whole [00:02:00] practice was in cannabis. That was surprising, but it was awesome. And then in 2015, I went in house with my largest client, which was harvest based in Tempe, Arizona. And when I joined the company they just opened their second facility.
[00:02:13] I was employee 50 by the time I left five years later and my primary job at harvest was to write the applications for. For them to expand. So the competitive applications although had a lot of different back then you did whatever needed to be done. It was like growing company, but when I left five years later, they had gone public thousand employees, nine states.
[00:02:30] So I just had this really front seat view into the cannabis industry. And it’s early days and saw a lot of amazing, hardworking, really smart people. But one thing that was consistent with. All organizations was, it was very, very difficult. A lot of stress. There was a lot of operational stress policies and procedures would change.
[00:02:48] Companies were like, you know, they would write SOP, that’d be extracting a certain way of processing in a certain way, but then they’d figure out a better way to do it. And so that everything was moving, you know, the staff turnover was incredible and [00:03:00] people lost sight of the regs. And, you know, there was just a lot of operational stress.
[00:03:03] You know, one client I had woman was taking the place of one of their growers who was on vacation for a week. And I don’t remember exactly who it was just over-watering, it was wrong nutrients, but she drastically lowered the flour output of, you know, a whole line of plants. And it was just a mistake if she had had a checklist, you know?
[00:03:20] So anyways, I just kept imagining. Let’s put everybody in one hub, you know, easy access to the rag. Let’s put the SOP, you know, training, auditing, collecting business intelligence reporting. So basically that, that was pro piano quite a few years ago, we’ve been taking slow, steady steps and launched this year.
[00:03:37] Bryan Fields: So I’m excited to kind of pick some of those pieces apart, but I want to stay with the first experience you had with the application process for our listeners that are unfamiliar, what that’s like, can you kind of give them like behind the scenes look. Like, how does that work? What does it look like from a paper standpoint, like from a size then what can you kind of take us through that?
[00:03:55] Dede perkins: Sure. So it’s a different, I mean, that’s one of the tricky things, but if it’s a competitive application [00:04:00] process, I mean, it’s grueling. Yeah. You know, you have to have boots on the ground. You have to have finances, you have to have people securing real estate. You have to have, you know, specialists coming up with security plans and safety plans.
[00:04:09] Many states require a full book of SOP standard operating procedures just to put in your application. Not all, but and then you have to have people make sure your application. Yeah. I mean, one application we put in literally was 900 page dissolve, pointing document. They’re often in the hundreds and you know, they just have to be, you have to address every regulatory requirement and you have to tell a story about why your company is worthy of getting the license, basically how you’re going to maintain compliance, what your culture is going to look like.
[00:04:39] And it’s just, it’s a big undertaking and it takes a team. And in most states it takes a fair amount of capital just to get to the licensure. Kevin
[00:04:47] Bryan Fields: kind of expand on there. I know we’ve kind of dabbled a little bit there and like hearing her say that just kind of brings back some of the memories that we had throughout the process.
[00:04:54] And I continue to want people like Didi and experts in the space to share that experience [00:05:00] because so many people are interested in kind of diving in, but sometimes don’t recognize the sheer amount that goes into kind of getting started. So killing time, expand.
[00:05:08] Kellan Finney: Yeah. I think one of the most overlooked aspects of the application process, especially in the early days was the simple fact that I guess it was kind of like the blind leading the blind, the regulators didn’t really know what they were even putting out there from a license standpoint.
[00:05:24] They were like, okay, like you can grow weed. Like, what does that even mean? And so add the competitive aspect to the application process. It’s almost like you can’t leave any stone unturned. Right. And that’s why, I mean, I’ve gone through some of the Florida applications and they’re the same kind of beast, if you will, in the 900, a thousand pages.
[00:05:44] And I mean, some of the ancillary information that’s included in those. Completely overkill in my opinion, at least. Right. Like they literally are utilizing like they’re including the resumes and the CBS for all of these individuals that they might potentially hire. You know what I mean? And [00:06:00] it’s insane to me that that was like a piece of information that clearly was valuable because every application included the resumes that people they might hire.
[00:06:08] Right. And I mean, you don’t see that in any other industry period, right? Like if you’re going to go. Start a gas station, right. In any state, they’re
[00:06:17] Bryan Fields: not the, state’s not going to ask you for
[00:06:19] Kellan Finney: the resumes of potential future employees that you might hire. You know what I mean? And so what was that process?
[00:06:26] Going through and trying to figure out, okay. Do we just, unturn every single rock that we can think of. Did you just kind of decide that you guys were just going to overkill it kind of walk us through that, that thought process duty in terms of deciding where to draw
[00:06:39] Dede perkins: that? Yeah, certainly. I mean, I worked for a number of different companies and each, you know, consultant or whoever was leading the team had a different approach, I will say in general, If they were serious and it was a very competitive state, most of the teams pulled out the stops and, and they did it in different ways.
[00:06:55] Some of the consultants absolutely looked at dusk practice. They looked at pharma, they looked [00:07:00] at other industries to, you know, set standards, whether it’s storage standards is standards, security, standards, you know, extraction or growing. You know, whether they’re going to use gap standards, GMP standards, and you know, a lot of companies over promised in those applications.
[00:07:13] I think in the beginning they had the best of intentions, but then the reality of actually implementing some of the things that you had promised. Incredibly difficult and expensive. And it was just, the industry was learning. You know I think other companies would look at strategy and they would say, okay, we’re going to, they literally would, would many of the companies did this, you know, you would literally break down the, the possible how you could get a hundred, how you get the A-plus, you know, you’d get extra points.
[00:07:37] If you had a community. Plan or extra points. And I think it was Ohio that, you know, if you promise to reclaim a brownfield, you got extra points, you know, and do some environmental cleanup. You know, if you went into disadvantage communities and, you know, you said you were gonna, you know, you were committed to hiring X amount.
[00:07:54] You know, those were all ways to get extra points and some companies were willing to do it. And some weren’t. And so [00:08:00] it’s a very strategic process, no matter which way you fall in, you know, We’re going to do it. Absolutely the best we’re going to hire the best people to your comment about resumes. I think that was very much about we are serious here and, you know, the people that we there’s a lot of fear, I find that there’s greed and fear largely in the cannabis industry, both of those.
[00:08:19] Tend to get a little overblown, but to, you know, to, to speak to the fear piece, if you have amazing PhDs or chemists or, you know, growers who came out of other industries or, you know, people in retail that had deep backgrounds, it was reassuring to state regulators. And often these state regulators on a, they were new at this too.
[00:08:37] It was, we were all figuring out together. So you never knew what was going to make you win. And you know, and the states said, Hey, you can add anything. You wanted ancillary material. Those are the states. They ended up with the 900 pages cause know. Wow, who knows what anybody else is going to put in. We better put them into it.
[00:08:53] Just got out of hand. Then I think then some states reacted and said, okay, we can’t, it’s just too [00:09:00] hard to even review it in a meaningful way. So then they started putting interesting different states, handled it differently.
[00:09:05] Bryan Fields: I think the, like the crazy part, there is the fact that you brought up, like everyone was figuring out together, which is such a challenging process, right.
[00:09:12] Because it’s not like there’s like a script to follow. Previously, this is how it went down. So we’re just going to follow this suit. Everyone’s left to kind of figure it out on their own, which just makes the whole experience a little more daunting, but a little, a little more like pave the road that you believe is best practices.
[00:09:26] So let’s kind of dive into some of those best practices in your experience from a compliance standpoint. Is there one myth that sometimes the bunk more than the
[00:09:34] Dede perkins: others? Sure. I answered that. I understand the question, but I. Certainly everybody was trying to win and they, and because like I said, in the beginning, like for one of your facilities, you know, you’d be doing it this way and it would be a good solid product.
[00:09:47] Right. But then you would hire a grower or a manufacturer that came out of another industry that, or maybe just, you know, and all of a sudden they brought in more sophisticated techniques. Okay. So now you’re, you’re changing the way you’re going to apply the next time. Right. Everything is just getting more [00:10:00] sophisticated, more sophisticated.
[00:10:01] I think there are two preconceptions about company. And they’re both true. One is that there are operators who will never care about it. They are interested in the plant. They’re interested in cannabis. They just want to do their thing. They want to be left alone. They don’t see it being a differentiator.
[00:10:15] And honestly, they just hope you know that, or they just believe it’s not, they’re not going to get caught. And if they do get caught, they can survive. And then there are the people that some of them are new to cannabis. Some of them came out of other regulated industries that they want to differentiate their brand on doing everything right.
[00:10:29] You know, they want their security protocols, their production. You know, really to be the best of the best, you know, world-class standards and very different mindsets. Both types of people honestly have very successful businesses. Obviously I fall more in the compliance let’s let’s put some structure and let’s, you know put some expectations and mitigate risks.
[00:10:46] So it’s, some people honestly care about it. And some people don’t, I want to
[00:10:50] Kellan Finney: kind of stay on that topic. So, I mean the most common buzzwords thrown around in the industry right. Outright is CGMP and it’s calming. Right? You want to get some GMP ready? [00:11:00] Even a gap with his good agricultural practice. Correct.
[00:11:04] How impactful do you think those certifications will be in like the next three, three years? Or do you think it’s more of something that is probably not going to be implemented for 10 years? Or do you think that truly requires federal legalization to be implemented? Because I know. Companies in Canada have to play by normal manufacturing roles when compared to companies in, in the U S at least.
[00:11:32] So, I mean, what are your thoughts on like a timeline for those? The
[00:11:36] Bryan Fields: impact that having a CGMP
[00:11:38] Kellan Finney: certification will actually be required.
[00:11:42] Dede perkins: I don’t know, honestly, I think it’s going to be tied to the federal you know, whatever happens with the feds. I mean, I think now there are a lot of companies interested in GMP privacy.
[00:11:49] They want, they want to do it right. But they also want to differentiate the brand, right? Maybe their, their market is that, you know, 50 year old female. Right. You know, there there’s segments of the industry that are growing faster [00:12:00] than others. And, and it might be nice to be able to, you know, as part of your brand marketing, you know, to just basically say, this is the safest, our standards.
[00:12:07] Right. So there’s a, there’s a, you know, a profit driven reason to have GMP standards. But you know, if you’re a little craft grower and you might be doing everything right, but the GMP standards are expensive and you know, it’s, I am all about doing it. Right. But sometimes it’s just not feasible and I really don’t want the standards to be so high that we put all the, you know, the craft growers out of business, honestly.
[00:12:31] So I we’ll see where that.
[00:12:32] Bryan Fields: Do you think there’s a semblance of trust with consumers now, but just believe that there is this high standard that everyone adheres to just given the fact that they can purchase these products and understanding that other industries follow this and just, just maybe a false sense of security when they purchase some of these.
[00:12:49] Dede perkins: Yeah, I do. I do, I think, you know, some states don’t require testing and main cause they, you know, were based in the new adult use regulations, they require testing, but medical doesn’t. So, I mean, and [00:13:00] I’m not going to take a stance on this, but you know, you really have to trust your grower. You know, if you’re a lot of people that are buying medical or not, you know, Immunocompromised, but a lot are.
[00:13:10] And you know, you honestly don’t know what’s in there. They’re heavy metals that their pesticides or there’s mold or mildew, like you have a lung disorder and you’re it’s so, I mean yeah, I think it depends on who they’re buying from and how much they trust them. But I do think people look at those.
[00:13:23] Yeah. They think it’s, it’s sort of sanctioned if it’s in a, in a licensed dispensary and we all know testing standards
[00:13:29] Bryan Fields: are.
[00:13:31] Kellan Finney: Humans in our society puts in labels. I did not realize how much faith is in there until I got into the games industry and was part of the manufacturing aspect. And then literally was talking to consumers and they’re like, oh no, it’s got a label on it.
[00:13:43] It’s completely fine. And it was just so enlightening to see how much faith humans bought it. Just a label on a product it’s insane.
[00:13:56] Dede perkins: Yeah, but they don’t have any way to note either. Right. [00:14:00] You’re not in the industry. Right. They don’t a hundred percent understand. And so they’re thinking, okay, I don’t care really about that label.
[00:14:06] I really just want what’s the, you know, I think it’s not the latest,
[00:14:09] Bryan Fields: I think it’s the fact that they can buy it. Like you were saying DD in like a medical store that people just assume that test it. Right. And you can ask people here in New York. Oh, what does tested mean? And they’re like safe and it’s like, whoa, you’re just associating things together.
[00:14:22] Good luck there, but that’s fine. But how do we then as an industry kind of marry the standards between consumer education and then safety and accuracy of the industry, but also like you were saying, don’t put the craft group growers out of space based on the cost. Like how do we balance those two things?
[00:14:39] Dede perkins: I wish I had the answers, you know, I think it’s, you know, it’s going to be trial and error where, you know, some states are going to overkill. Some states are going to under kill, you know, the feds are going to, you know, I don’t, I don’t know that there’s an easy solution, honestly, but I, you know, I do know the states that are going to be friendlier are going to have more.
[00:14:56] You know, smaller companies in the space and companies that are [00:15:00] really, really high standards, you know, they’re gonna have the big box cannabis companies. And so you know, the regulations and the standards definitely have effect on who’s playing. So
[00:15:09] Kellan Finney: Yeah, and I mean, it’s so fragmented right now, too.
[00:15:11] I mean, every, like you just mentioned
[00:15:13] Bryan Fields: in Massachusetts, the difference between
[00:15:15] Kellan Finney: the adult and the medical market, that difference is common throughout a lot of states I’ve seen. And I mean, just look at even adult use markets, right? Like Colorado has different regulations than California to bring a product to the market and how a.
[00:15:29] Retail shelf. And so from an MSO perspective, managing all of these different regulations, I don’t know if you’d call testing requirements regulations probably. Yeah. Right. That, that would be something that pro Canada really is a really strong
[00:15:43] Dede perkins: act. Absolutely. I mean, our whole platform is, you know, giving easy access to the rags and the standards and then, and being able to compare.
[00:15:51] So you might have one process that you pretty much do in all your facilities, but you have to tweak depending on what it is. You’re going to have to tweak it. If you’re doing it in California, you’re gonna have to do it slightly [00:16:00] different standards of the way you’re doing it in Arizona or your way you’re doing it in Pennsylvania or Maryland.
[00:16:04] So, you know, there’s a lot of commonality with operations, but then those really important differences you need to away to be able to. Reasonably manage all those SLPs and policies and regulations under, you know, and have easy access to the two. What makes them different, but also being able to count on the base of your operations, are this going to be the same state to state?
[00:16:24] So it’s tricky and, and, you know, I mean state, sometimes it’s not even an, a legislative change. I mean, Massachusetts. And so other states too, are famous for putting out guidance. So the CCC will say, okay, here, you know what the advertising and marketing reg is, but here’s how we’re going to. You know, this is how we’re gonna address billboards, right?
[00:16:40] And so, or this is how we’re going to address X. And so you, you have to keep up with all the sort of, you know, memos that got that, get then how they’re interpreting the regulations. And, you know, you multiply that by multiple facilities in multiple states and different teams, cultivation, manufacturing, retail, and they all have different.
[00:16:58] It’s just, it’s complex [00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Kellan Finney: with exposure and like, say I’m an operator and I have operations in multiple states and I had exposure to all this information. Do you guys help, like, translate all that information and kind of strategically figure out what the best place to kind of sit on that spectrum, if you will, where.
[00:17:15] Massachusetts has this specific policy on billboards versus Florida versus California, you kind of helped the company come up with like custom strategies for each state they’re operating in. Are you, or are you guys kind of just more taking a hands-off approach with those kinds of conversations and just let them interpret the information that you guys.
[00:17:33] Dede perkins: So we will certainly, you know, if someone said to us, can you give us a memo? Like we’re we’re software as a service, big on service. So we will definitely say to somebody, okay, you know, you’re a new you know, compliance person in Florida and you will put that report back together for you. So we’ll say this is, these are the.
[00:17:48] Diving rigs in the different states. What we won’t do is we won’t give any legal advice, how we’re interpreting them. We can give you all the support documentation, and we can refer you to consultants that we know do a good job. But you know, we are [00:18:00] basically a curator of information. We see ourselves sitting between our company, our customers, and the regulatory agencies.
[00:18:06] And so it’s our job to deliver the information. You know, in a timely, clear, understandable fashion. That’s what our highest youth is. I think, to make sure you always have what you need to have to make a decision and we will support you, but we draw the line at legal advice or, you know, helping you strategize.
[00:18:22] But again, we’ll, we’ll help you find somebody. If, if you’re looking for referrals, we have a bunch of people that. They can hand out names and, you know, help you start the vetting process. I
[00:18:31] Bryan Fields: want to go back to something you said a little, a little bit prior about like all the states and all the different challenges.
[00:18:36] So how hypothetically eventually we’ll get to federal legalization. Well, they’ll Institute one set of common standards throughout the United States. Hopefully at that time, everyone’s going to have to then I guess essentially shuffle back into their carbs, change, everything they’re essentially doing, adjust all their SOP, all of their policies and kind of almost restart with a new set of rules and regulations.
[00:18:56] Is that kind of how it goes?
[00:18:58] Dede perkins: Again, we don’t really know, but I, I [00:19:00] sort of think, and I think a lot of people agree that it’s going to be more like alcohol. So there’s state rights. The states have their basic regulatory systems. And then the, the federal regulations will sit on top of that, you know? So they will deal with maybe interstate commerce or, you know, how you’re transporting cannabis or safety, you know, the FDA will, you know, so we think that it will just add one more layer, honestly, of top of what’s going on.
[00:19:21] But most cannabis operators, if they’re paying attention to. They’re always changing anyways. It’s not static. So, you know, it’s a moving target, you know, not month to month, but often, you know, quarter to quarter, you know, year to year things change
[00:19:36] Kellan Finney: your team must have significant exposure to all of the compliance changes and kind of sitting there with the front seat row to the, to the shelf.
[00:19:44] If you will. I guess contracted by like people from Washington to see how specific regulations kind of play out from a pattern perspective from all these different states that are coming online. Is that some, some type of the, I don’t know if you can even talk about that, but [00:20:00] just curious, right? Cause like, Hey, you guys have significant exposure to how these, how the rules are playing out and creating these functional industries.
[00:20:07] I would imagine someone would be like, Hey what’s what do you guys see? That’s working. Yep.
[00:20:12] Dede perkins: And we’re in brand new company, honestly. So I mean, we are, we have built the content where we are in six states. We’re building, we’re finishing up New Jersey adult use and Maryland in the next couple of weeks.
[00:20:22] And so we’re building out the content you know, on a state by state basis, you know, we’re start up basically, you know our, our tools are available in all the states with legal cannabis programs. Although we have not started to market that at all. So, you know, we’re certainly getting invitations. To take part in, you know, standards did the ASTs, you know, just different committees and it’s just beginning, honestly.
[00:20:42] And we launched in January. We didn’t even really go to the market until July. So we’ll see where that all goes, but there’s a lot of people who know a lot more than I do, honestly, you know, I mean, we get experts in the states and we build out, you know, each states and you know, most of the MSL is have lobbyists that are, you know, have been doing this for years, all the, you know, the, an international [00:21:00] organization.
[00:21:00] So, you know, I’m not sure we’ll ever be a big player in that, but Yeah, it’s an interesting space to be in. Certainly. Is
[00:21:05] Bryan Fields: there one state that has more stringent regulation policies, like than all the others? Or can you give us kind of a spectrum map of one state you think is really tighter with the regulations and then one on the other end, that’s a little more.
[00:21:19] Dede perkins: Well, I mean, you know, you get like, here’s, the other thing is you can have a lot of regulations, but if you don’t enforce them, you know, it’s so that’s it. And that changes state to state. Right? You can have all the regulations in the world, but if nobody’s looking, half of the operators are probably not compliant with everything.
[00:21:33] Right. I mean, right. That’s just the fact. So, and that tends to go in phases. It depends on who’s running the agencies, how much money COVID a lot of the enforcement stops. So we’re in a sort of. Period right now. I mean, we’re seeing a lot of fines coming out in Nevada. I mean, so, I mean, all of a sudden they’re stepping up their enforcements.
[00:21:50] I know the math CCC is looking to expand their staff. And you know, we’re seeing some, some attention there, you know, and then there’s some state that honestly, it’s a really low [00:22:00] bar. You know, if you got $2,000 and a pulse, you can operate a cannabis business, you know? So, and in California, that’s like its own country.
[00:22:07] You know, you get to the state and get county, you get municipalities. They’re all, they’re all a little different.
[00:22:13] Bryan Fields: You think that’s why some of the big episodes are interested in going there? Do you think it’s more of the maturation of that?
[00:22:19] Dede perkins: I think it’s a lot of things. I mean, you know, I think its regulations are heavy, you know, there’s still a, a vibrant legacy market.
[00:22:26] You know, I just think it’s complicated. It’s not the easiest market to go into. And if you’re a new company, you know, there’s probably lower hanging fruit that you can be successful. I think eventually a lot of companies want to be in California, honestly. But whether they start there, I mean, some, obviously a lot of companies started there some of the unit, right.
[00:22:41] But a lot of people are shying away from it a little bit now, but they’re working on it. Right. They’ve got them all in one agency now, the right
[00:22:50] Bryan Fields: the right direction. You know, what is the prize? Let’s just get all the people who are making decisions in one room and make one uniform decision. I mean, that’s pretty complex thinking the guys,
[00:22:59] Kellan Finney: I [00:23:00] mean, California’s a street fight if we’re going to be
[00:23:01] Bryan Fields: honest. Right? So let’s talk about protecting your company’s valuation with a strong compliance culture.
[00:23:07] Can you kind of shed some more information?
[00:23:09] Dede perkins: Absolutely. So, I mean, I think, you know, if you’re paying attention to compliance and you’re documenting your operations, it shows two things. One of our first customers literally one of the first people on the platform at a beta level, we put them on a Friday, Monday, he had, by Monday, he had created like this 30 question audit that they were, they were a big auditing company.
[00:23:28] And over the next couple of weeks, they went into, he started doing auditing facilities and one of the dispensary’s they identified an issue. I believe it was with a visitor log. Totally documented in pro Canada, the facility manager was notified. They were, you know, they had a remediation process in place.
[00:23:43] And again, the, at that point enforcement was not really all that active, so they didn’t really expect it to get, you know, they figured it would just stay in house. They’d fix it at literally like the next week they had a surprise audit and the regulator found the exact same issue, which is a kind of a big issue because it’s access and [00:24:00] protection and.
[00:24:01] You know, the facility manager said, oh, you know, we figured this out 10 days ago, and this is what we were doing. They didn’t even get a deficiency. They didn’t get a fine, they, they said, you know, like what we’re looking for is not that the company never makes mistakes, but they’re being proactive to find and fix their mistakes.
[00:24:15] So you know, I think that that’s one way that just having a compliance culture works in your favor. Certainly if you want to, you know, sell the supply chain is getting more and more sophisticated. Investors are getting more and more sophisticated. If you can document your operations, you know, you on your packing line, checking.
[00:24:30] And, you know, in April and may and July and everything’s copacetic, you know, your inventory is always stored a certain way and that’s all documented again. I think a lot of investors are now looking for compliant operations. They don’t want headaches. There’s a lot of people to choose from out there. And so they really want the companies when they go through the due diligence process to be.
[00:24:48] Prove their operations and prove they’re the finances and that everything’s in line. So as the industry gets more sophisticated and yeah, I just think that just like any company, a good solid company with records and [00:25:00] processes and risk mitigation is gonna get higher valuations than someone who may be producing a really great product.
[00:25:07] But there’s a lot of. So, you know, they’re just, they’re just running by the seat of their pants. And so you don’t really know what you don’t know in that operation. And you got to, if it’s apples to apples, okay. I can put my money in this company. I can put my money in this company, you know, I mean, different investors might make different decisions, but I would say that most are going to choose the more organized company.
[00:25:24] If the products are equal,
[00:25:24] Kellan Finney: Compliance aspects that you just listed off are requirements for obtaining like a CGMP accreditation or.
[00:25:32] Dede perkins: Yeah. You, you can’t get GMP with without without being organized without a real commitment to a system. Yeah, you can be compliant without GMP, but you gave me, you know, you, you can’t have GMP standards without a fairly sophisticated compliance system.
[00:25:45] Yeah.
[00:25:46] Kellan Finney: So you guys are kind of just helping people take that first step.
[00:25:49] Dede perkins: We are, you know, I mean, I have to say we, we really thought when we launched that we would be dealing with, you know, single state companies that had multiple facilities. Now, 5, 6, 10 facilities in one state, [00:26:00] you know, we thought the bigger MSOE, you know, would just be too big for us, but we’re having some very interesting conversations.
[00:26:06] All across the, the the industry. And interestingly enough when we first started talking, we were getting conversations from accountants and attorneys and cannabis consultants that were looking for a tool to use with their clients. So all of a sudden, there’s, there’s this whole trusted advisor piece of the market that really gets what we’re trying to do.
[00:26:25] And often the operators don’t really want to do this. So they hire, you know, their, their attorney or their consultant. And so we’re having a lot of traction with that trusted advisors who are then introducing the. And to the operators systems, but we also have we were working in Massachusetts. My co-founder was at a networking event, started talking to the gentleman who was in the social equity, the second cohort, Massachusetts.
[00:26:46] And they got talking and we showed them what pro Canada could do. And he’s like, it would be really helpful. Just access to the regulations with all of the, you know, the pre-licensure basically applicants. And so we. It had [00:27:00] met a couple people, had conversations and decided to basically give away our platform to anybody who was a social equity participant, right through licensure, right through becoming operational and then at a steep discount for a couple of years.
[00:27:11] So, so now we’re, we’re dealing with, you know, people that are in the pre-licensure phase, the applicants. And so they’re building their SOP, they’re writing their applications using Pre-Cana. So that’s been very, very cool, very exciting. Didn’t see that coming. I love that it, that it’s really working well.
[00:27:27] And we roll that out. I mean, if the state has a sort of a priority group, whether it’s economic empowerment, veterans, women, you know social equity, we will honor those same, that same program in the state.
[00:27:39] Kellan Finney: So that’s an incredible story.
[00:27:44] Dede perkins: Yeah, it’s it’s it’s, you know, you just gotta jump in wherever you are and you don’t really know what it’s going to look like.
[00:27:48] You just going to keep trying to do your best every day and see where you end up. So
[00:27:52] Bryan Fields: what’s one cannabis compliance fact. The average person would be shocked to learn, oh
[00:27:58] Dede perkins: boy, you got me[00:28:00]
[00:28:04] before I would’ve had a good answer. I kind of went blank. You know, Inventory control. I mean, some states require daily, weekly inventory control, which is a monstrous task, you know, and that how Bosely some states are trying to control that whole seed to sale process. The thought of, you know, tracking something from the time it is thieves.
[00:28:23] The time it is dispensed in a package is a little mind blowing. If you’re in the industry, that’s just the way it is. But if you actually think about it, it’s intense. It’s mind blowing. So yeah, I would say that the inventory.
[00:28:35] Bryan Fields: There’s like a million moving parts. I think Kellen, you described one time as like operating six different businesses, all wrapped in one.
[00:28:41] And unfortunately with six different businesses, you can’t just take Charlie from manufacturing and drop them off in cultivation and be like, Hey, like, this is kind of like your equal counterpart and maybe it’s a different division, but like good luck out there. We need you
[00:28:52] Dede perkins: to fill in. Yeah, no, no, just now the other thing that blows me away at some states, if you know your [00:29:00] license, if you’re a defense.
[00:29:01] Not only are you, you have to have a different license for every company, every store you work in. So, I mean, you might be licensed in Tempe, Arizona, but you can’t fill in, in Scottsdale unless you have a second, you know,
[00:29:18] and the financial, I mean, it’s, it’s just incredibly difficult for the operators because man, it just seems a little onerous to be honest with you. You know, it’s one thing to just. But be dispensary agent for a company in a state, but to actually tie them to a location just seems to, I mean, I’m sure there’s a reason that I don’t understand, but it seems to just on, beyond realistic, you know, put shackles on, you know, I mean, sometimes you just have to move people around, you know, and, and they’re happy to do so if, as long as they’re in that same vertical, I can see why you would want to dispensary agent don’t want to cult or the other way, right.
[00:29:50] Yeah. Especially
[00:29:51] Bryan Fields: as these companies are growing as fast as they’re growing, right. You have to sometimes look internally to be like, Hey, like you’re a superstar on one team. We need you to help out. And then you’re like, all right, we got to [00:30:00] take these six steps before we kind of move you. You just kind of layers the complexity on top of each other.
[00:30:04] It makes the challenges even harder, which is, I think sometimes daunting for us even inside the industry here. And I think sometimes outside industry people don’t recognize all these additional hurdles that are just layered on top of people in the cannabis. Yeah,
[00:30:18] Dede perkins: that’s a big one. I mean, the team to even manage the agent license renewals and some of these, they have to be renewed every year.
[00:30:24] You know what I mean? It’s just the moving parts. The spreadsheets are. Yeah. They’re daunting.
[00:30:29] Bryan Fields: I think you said it perfectly when you said the moving target, right? Like people are shooting for moving targets. You crushed it last quarter, but this quarter we’re going to do it slightly different and then slightly different, slightly different.
[00:30:40] So these people on their toes and people have to become a little more comfortable with being uncomfortable. But my God, that is a really sliding scale challenge. When people are looking for best cannabis compliance practices. Is there differences between MSOE, cultivators and retails? Like how, how would that work?
[00:30:55] If a, if a large scale MSO would want to come to you and say, Hey, we need help with this. We’re trying to get [00:31:00] started. We want to revisit this. We can be ready for. What would you recommend from best practices?
[00:31:05] Dede perkins: I think just jump in, you know, whether and every company is going to be in a different place, you know?
[00:31:09] I mean, if you think about mitigating your risk, you know, you know what you do well, you know, probably where you got issues, you know, just jump in and figure out, you know, maybe you just start with auditing, you just take it, you evaluate, okay. How would the different departments doing? And then really just jump in whether you just get your SLPs on and you want to try to standardize where they’re give everybody access.
[00:31:28] They’re all stored in the same place. Everybody can maybe it’s that. I mean, honestly, there are companies that have SOP. Printed lower shelf that nobody looks at, they have departments that they have them in one place. I mean, you know, even just standardizing, localizing, centralizing access, your SLPs is a big plus.
[00:31:44] So it really depends. You’d have to talk to them and say, what makes, where, where should we jump in for your company? But starting as again, just half the battle
[00:31:53] Bryan Fields: scent of cannabis operators, do you think have a compliance officer on this.[00:32:00]
[00:32:01] Not many, I would say a hundred percent,
[00:32:03] Kellan Finney: I would say no, every, every, no, it’s like, you can’t get by without
[00:32:08] Bryan Fields: it,
[00:32:11] Kellan Finney: like, they may not be, have that title on their name, but like it is. A full-time job, like for sure, running compliant, like I I’ve worked in for five different companies and every end from really, really large to really, really small, like you cannot move a plane from room a two room B without entering it into the computer and changing.
[00:32:33] Like a new, a barcode. And so like, it is absolutely impossible for any company to sell one molecule THC without the
[00:32:44] Bryan Fields: compliance person on staff period. Like you just full-time role though. They may
[00:32:49] Kellan Finney: not, they may, they may not have that title, but
[00:32:52] Bryan Fields: there is someone at every single company who has spent way too much time.
[00:32:57] In
[00:32:58] Kellan Finney: either metric or [00:33:00] the third party software like backbone or cracking or another software platform, because not only is it, so topic like metric is so complicated that you need to be a software developer and coder to play with metric. So then they made another software platform that you have to buy that then plays with metric.
[00:33:18] So then you have to be an expert at this other software platforms. So like every single company I’ve ever worked for, like the lowest end extraction tech ha. An understanding on how to input information into a compliance software platform, because they have to keep track of data. They have to do like compliance officers, like from state inspectors will come in and they’ll look at jars.
[00:33:40] Totes they’ll scan barcodes. Cause that’s what it is. Parker. They just scan it and it comes up in there on their iPad, right? So like hundred percent, they may not have the title of compliance officer, but every single employee at a hundred percent of the companies has had exposure to compliance software.
[00:33:55] And there’s someone there who has spent an ungodly amount of time in front of the [00:34:00] software platform, getting through training protocols, being certified by the third party software. It’s just, you can’t run the business without it. Like it’s impossible to do that. Or. Looking at the legacy market.
[00:34:12] Bryan Fields: There
[00:34:12] Dede perkins: are some, there are some states that, that I think that that is not true.
[00:34:15] I think, you know I also
[00:34:18] Bryan Fields: have exposure on the west coast.
[00:34:19] Dede perkins: So, you know, your point though, is they may not have that title most depart. I mean, I don’t know that most companies have one compliance for, so I was thinking like that centralized compliance person. There’s a lot of companies that don’t have that one single responsible party, but the department managers are running it, you know, they’re trained and they pass it along.
[00:34:36] But compliance, you know, I mean, I’ve said this many times, I feel like the first decade, it was just moving so fast. You know, it was, it was chaos was the name of the game, you know, just math lead, just growth and, and, you know, land, grab and license grab. Now we’re getting a little bit more settled and a little bit more mature, a little bit more professionalized.
[00:34:55] And so I think you’ll see more and more companies even give people that title, if that’s what you will [00:35:00] or, or give, you know, multiple people in a company that title, but they were moving in the right direction
[00:35:05] Bryan Fields: and do the GMP process. There better be someone to run that because that is no small.
[00:35:11] Dede perkins: Okay. Yeah.
[00:35:11] And as soon as you get there, you’re already organized, right. You have somebody running that. So to Galen’s point, you know, it is just part of the way you
[00:35:22] Bryan Fields: function, right? Yeah. Dede, since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconceived.
[00:35:29] Dede perkins: The fear piece, always, you know, that there’s just a lot of people, smart people that just are really uncomfortable gateway drug, you know, that they they it’s, it’s a, it’s an emotional response, even if they think it isn’t.
[00:35:42] And when you actually strip it back, it is a plant. Right. You know, we need to understand the chemicals. It is, you know? So I still, that comes people not wanting to say that they’re in the industry, depending on which, you know, which part of the country you live in, or, you know, your. Circle. I mean, you know, there are people in my world that are still absolutely shocked that I would be [00:36:00] in the cannabis industry and you know, some, a lot of people think that’s very cool.
[00:36:03] A lot of people are like, yeah, I don’t know why she’s doing that. So, you know, and I think it’s that fear that just really lack of understanding what we’re talking about, but that’s changing. I think that’s
[00:36:12] Bryan Fields: changing before we do predictions. We ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation,
[00:36:22] Dede perkins: Work harder, be willing to work harder than you’ve ever worked before.
[00:36:25] I mean, it’s just, it takes a lot and you know, just do the best you can, you know, just, just give it all every day, show up and leave it on the field. And you know, it’s pretty general, but
[00:36:33] Bryan Fields: know the best piece of advice, right. They beat the test of time. So I think those are the best pieces
[00:36:39] Dede perkins: and it’s worth it, you know?
[00:36:40] I mean, it’s worth it. It’s. Yeah,
[00:36:43] Bryan Fields: especially at the speed things are changing. I mean, where else can you find it on the industry where, like you were saying, it’s literally a moving target continually. So if you’re looking to get some fast paced environment in an industry, that’s absolutely exploding.
[00:36:53] That’s hard. You chose the right one. So let’s do prediction time. D D what do you [00:37:00] think is the number one compliance issue that will change over the course of the next year? That operators should be aware of and planning for
[00:37:09] Dede perkins: the enforcement. I think that, I think you, you know, you’re really going to just have to be ready to prove that your operation is compliant.
[00:37:15] You know, I don’t know that there’s any one thing that’s going to change. I do think GMP standards are there. They’re coming, you know, so if you’re really a forward thinker, you might want to be moving down that path. So, but you know, I think that compliance is. 16 months ago, you know, year and a half ago, it was, you know, if you talked about compliance, people blazed over and now all of a sudden people are realizing that you know, it’s just a fact of life right now.
[00:37:36] I think. So just.
[00:37:40] Kellan Finney: That’s a tough question. It really is. Cause it’s like, like Didi said, like it’s not, there’s not one situation. I think that like really stands out because like, if it was that case, like everyone would be aware of it. In my opinion, like the, the painful part of compliance is that they’re getting.
[00:37:57] So many angles of
[00:37:58] Bryan Fields: compliance.[00:38:00]
[00:38:02] So I’m going to take the easy, easy way out. And I’m just going to piggyback on DVDs, answer.
[00:38:09] Dede perkins: I must say, testing, be prepared for more standardized testing labs. Did you know that may be moving quickly? You know that, but you know, I
[00:38:17] Kellan Finney: think I’m fortunate though. I think, and specifically in California, I think.
[00:38:20] The three agencies becoming one now, right? The DCC that’s what the new agent, or is it the BC? There’s so many acronyms,
[00:38:29] Bryan Fields: right?
[00:38:29] Kellan Finney: But like, however you decide, every state comes up with their own unique acronym, by the way,
[00:38:38] Bryan Fields: we are different,
[00:38:41] Kellan Finney: but you get back to my point. I think that with California consolidating their. Regulatory bodies. I think you will start to see significantly more enforcement starts to take place. And I think another supporting aspect of that is this last Q3 of 2021 [00:39:00] was California saw a 12% decrease in tax revenue from cannabis sales, which I think is a direct result of.
[00:39:09] Lack of enforcement and all these companies flooding the market and not having to play the same games that legal companies are. So they’re able to sell their product at a significant discount and still generate revenue versus other companies that are playing the proper games that are forced to not potentially close their doors because they can’t compete because they had to spend all this money doing it the right way.
[00:39:31] We’re all these other people did it and they undercut them from a price point and now they’re not able to generate revenue. So I think a combination of those two, two variables are really going to, you’re going to see significant enforcement in specifically the state of California, because they got it.
[00:39:46] They got to reign that in, in order to facilitate a legal market, they got to get control of it. All right, Brian, that’s your. You
[00:39:54] Bryan Fields: know, I, I know I write the question, which means that
[00:39:59] I [00:40:00] never do. And every time, like when I wrote this one, I was like, this one’s hard. I hope there’s something that comes to my mind, but I try to make it Nashville off the top. And now like hearing it it’s like the ice. This is, this is harder than I thought it would be. This is hard especially because the timeframe of the year goes so fast and cannabis, Hey, you know, one compliance issue I’m going to.
[00:40:19] Swinging for internal testing. Unfortunately I think something bad will have to happen again, similar to vacate where others look internal and say, Hey, we got to figure out what we can do better internally to make sure that the consumer is safe and that the industry continues to live on. And I think that involves instituting real-time sensors into process to make sure that the product adheres to the highest quality control standards so that everyone can feel comfortable when they select these products.
[00:40:46] Because the one thing we can all be. Unfortunately, the consumer’s not going to become more educated and say, Hey, I need to see these things. They’re still going to hear it’s that level of trust, no matter what, and just assume because I can buy it here. So we need to do a [00:41:00] better job internally of meeting their standards.
[00:41:02] Like all the other industries have, and it’s going to be a financial cost for a lot of these operators. So where are the other areas? But this one’s an important one from a safety standpoint. And I just hope that the area that is negative, that leads everyone to move forward in this. It’s not one that’s so daunting on the space like baby gate that sets us back for a monster.
[00:41:21] Well said, definitely great for our listeners that want to get in touch. They want to learn more about pro Canada. Where can they reach
[00:41:27] Dede perkins: you? Our website pro canada-usa.com. I’m always on LinkedIn, Bebe, Perkins. I definitely respond as much as I can. So yeah, happy to talk to anybody who’s interested in, you know, Chad about compliance in the United States or anywhere else actually for that matter.
[00:41:42] But
[00:41:42] Bryan Fields: from a global standpoint, we didn’t chat about that. Like a whole
[00:41:45] Dede perkins: another conversation.
[00:41:47] Bryan Fields: Thank you so much for your time. DV. Thank [00:41:49] Dede perkins: you. I’ve enjoyed talking with you both have a good
