Editors’ Note: This is an excerpt from our Monthly Playbook. If you would like to read the full monthly playbook and join the thousands of others you can sign up below.
Welcome to March everyone where our attention has shifted from the coronavirus to eastern Europe. The cannabinoid industry continues its push forward regardless of the world around us, with the Emerald Conference just wrapping up down in San Diego. As more states have legalized cannabis either recreationally or medically, the quality and quantity of scientific investigation into the cannabis plant have helped advance the industry.
The hemp industry continued to see wholesale prices for biomass stabilize with some even posting gains, suggesting that the industry will enjoy a stronger 2022. The widespread adoption of CBD products is gaining in popularity as more and more box stores are carrying CBD products. This fact, along with specific brands generating awareness in both cannabis and hemp could lead to a significant increase in demand moving forward.
Kellen Finney, Eighth Revolution
Editors’ Note: This is an excerpt from our Monthly Playbook. If you would like to read the full monthly playbook and join the thousands of others you can sign up below.
In New York’s up-and-coming cannabis industry, it’s the season of giving: free cannabis, that is.
In September 2021, Henrietta-based business HempSol announced that customers would receive a “free” cannabis gift with the purchase of a $65 t-shirt. This business model alerted New Yorkers to other “cannabis gift with purchase” arrangements at CBD and smoke shops, as well as pop-up cannabis gifting events throughout the state. With the sale of an overpriced t-shirt, lighter, or other item, numerous CBD businesses and smoke shops offered New Yorkers a THC-infused gift throughout the fall of 2021 and early winter of 2022.
While some consumers regard this cannabis gifting as resourceful and innovative, Cannabis Control Board Chair Tremaine Wright has condemned cannabis gifting from its conception, insisting that there is “no gray market” in the state’s developing cannabis industry. Under the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act (MRTA), which legalized cannabis in New York in 2021, only regulated cannabis sales are legal. Yet amidst the pandemic and concerns regarding cannabis policing and social equity, regulations for cannabis retail sales have yet to be published, prompting some New York cannabis growers to employ the creative yet legally fuzzy strategy of cannabis gifting.
Businesses offering cannabis gifts were not formally penalized until early February, when more than two dozen received letters from the NY Office of Cannabis Management. These letters instructed businesses to cease and desist cannabis gifts or risk substantial fines, possible criminal penalties, and an inability to obtain a legal cannabis license. Although Wright and others insist on a regulated cannabis market, legal cannabis sales can only begin after New York approves regulations governing those sales. Wright predicts that draft regulations will be released by late winter/ early spring of 2022; after a 60-day comment period and final approval, applications to open cannabis businesses can finally be submitted.
So, what’s the hold up? Through its recently-launched Cannabis Conversations, the New York government is attempting to answer this question by engaging directly with its cannabis community. The publication of regulations for retail cannabis is partially delayed due to public health concerns. Before sales commence, Wright and others want to ensure the safety of consumers, citing the unregulated sale and gifting of concentrated cannabis cartridges in 2019, some of which contained deadly Vitamin E acetate and were associated with 2,800 hospitalizations and 68 deaths. Another key concern is the development of a “supportive ecosystem” for all cannabis business owners, says Wright: New York is prioritizing social equity applicants, including women-owned businesses, distressed farmers, and those harmed by over-policing and mass incarceration. Finally, New York’s much-anticipated cannabis regulations must outline the industry’s use of sales tax revenues, which Wright intends to reinvest in the community. After covering the cost of Office of Cannabis Management operations, equity applicants, and law enforcement training, 40 percent of remaining tax revenue will support NY schools, says Wright; another 40 percent will be returned to communities most harmed by disproportionate cannabis policing, with the final 20 percent dedicated to drug treatment programs and public education.
Consumer safety and social equity are essential to a healthy cannabis industry; yet as Wright acknowledges, it will take time to design and cultivate this ecosystem. As New York cannabis consumers and businesses await MRTA regulations, cannabis gifting is expected to decrease in response to the February crackdown. Yet throughout the state, the spirit of cannabis entrepreneurship remains vibrant. Particularly for social equity applicants, the regulatory delays may serve as an unexpected blessing, giving cannabis business owners the gift of time – time to establish funding, legal expertise, and customer relationships – in lieu of cannabis gifts.
Takeaways:
In New York’s recently legalized cannabis industry, some businesses have employed a “cannabis gift with purchase” model to establish their customer bases in anticipation of a fully-regulated cannabis industry.
The New York Office of Cannabis Management openly condemns cannabis gifting in New York and recently distributed cease-and-desist letters to businesses engaging in the practice.
The delayed publication of cannabis regulations in New York – and subsequent popularity of cannabis gifting – can be attributed to a number of factors, including the state’s focus on social equity applicants, concerns about public safety, and detailed plans for cannabis sales tax revenue.
Editors’ Note: This is an excerpt from our Monthly Playbook. If you would like to read the full monthly playbook and join the thousands of others you can sign up below.
Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
Lauren Wilson is a writer who approaches her work with an appreciation that every topic is always—always—more complicated than it seems. It is in the folds of complexity, the threads of nuance and the mending of contradictions that she weaves together meaning as an author, a freelance writer and a human being.
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in regard to the hemp & cannabis industry. Our forward-thinking team can diagnose, analyze & optimize every detailed nuance of your company to keep your business safe, smart, and profitable. Our flexibility and experience combined with ongoing research create unique insights into how to best grow your market share. Contact us directly at [email protected]
Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24
Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime as always I’m Brian Fields. And with me is my guy Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest best-selling author, Lauren Wilson, Lauren. Thanks for taking the time. How are you doing? I’m doing
[00:00:15]Lauren Wilson: great. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:00:16] I’m excited to be here.
[00:00:17]Bryan Fields: Excited, Kellen. How are you
[00:00:18]Kellan Finney: doing? I’m doing great. I’m doing great out here in sunny, Colorado. Excited to talk to us more east coast
[00:00:23]Bryan Fields: people. Yeah. I was curious to know if you were going to ask Lauren where she was located or if you’re just going to quickly in New York, right?
[00:00:28] That’s right. A little, another New York in the building. And I think chalk that up to some of their east coaster for us. So Lauren, before we dive in, I think it’d be great for our listeners to get a little background about.
[00:00:41]Lauren Wilson: Yeah. My name is Lauren Wilson. I am a writer, a self-proclaimed cannabis nerd, just a nerd all around.
[00:00:48] I’ve done five books, three of which run CBD and came to the cannabis space through the food world. I went to chef school and worked in restaurants as a chef for many years, taught cooking classes for many years, [00:01:00] wrote a couple of cookbooks specific to the zombie apostle. And then was endeavoring to write my third cookbook, which is going to be a cannabis edibles cookbook when I got pulled into the cannabis sphere and writing specifically about cannabis science.
[00:01:13] And so how I haven’t really ventured forest beyond the cannabis space since then. So I’ve been writing about cannabis for about five years and yeah. And here I am today talking to you.
[00:01:23]Bryan Fields: Yeah. And I’m excited to hit a variety of different topics, but I think for the first one, let’s start off with the easiest one cannabis through.
[00:01:30] For those inspiring chefs at home who want to get little bit into experience into the fuse. What’s the simplest way to try the experience without being fearful of overdosing.
[00:01:41]Lauren Wilson: I love that you brought that up because in fact the title of my forthcoming cannabis cookbook, which I still intend to do is edibles.
[00:01:48] Aren’t scary. Because as you point out, lots of people have not so fun experiences with edibles. And I think that with just a little bit of knowledge and a little bit of math, frankly, and figuring out what [00:02:00] dosages might be in each, w whether it be a brownie, a cookie, whatever it is you decide to make can really help.
[00:02:04] And then of course the, the. You start low and go slow, especially true with edibles, don’t rush to oh, I don’t feel anything. I’m going to eat some more. That’s where most people fall down the rabbit hole, so to speak. I think that cooking with cannabis can be really easy, really accessible, really approachable.
[00:02:18] I personally as a person who utilizes CBD, I make all my own CBD oils and really it’s, that’s a great entry point for people. Infusing an oil is an easy process. You don’t even necessarily need. Expensive or specialized equipment. There are some great extractors out there in the market that are easy to use and will produce great results, but you can do it with, a heat heat proof jar.
[00:02:39] On your stove, if you really wanted to, I use a Crock-Pot I have a Crock-Pot at home. Yeah, I think that cooking with cannabis can be as simple or complicated as you want to make it. And as long as you’re mindful as to dosages and paying attention to the math on that it’s as simple as that
[00:02:52]Bryan Fields: really.
[00:02:53] So I want to pick at that, cause I’m curious, right? Like for those who were a little more experienced with cooking with cannabis, they’re probably a [00:03:00] little more keen to trying a little more. So how do you figure that out? Three or four people over and let’s say most people’s normal doses.
[00:03:05] It’s just say 10 milligrams. Should we start with 40 to 80 milligrams? Or how would you put us on the basis for starting
[00:03:12]Lauren Wilson: successfully? That’s a great question. I think there’s a couple of different approaches. One is. You can have the, you can add the cannabinoids in. You can have an infused salad dressing or something.
[00:03:24] Let’s say where a person can decide you. You tell them, okay, they’re in a teaspoon, there’s about five milligrams or what have you. And then people can decide for themselves how much they want to add. And you can incrementally add, whereas opposed, with a cooked item or a baked item where it’s baked in there and whatever’s in there is in there.
[00:03:40] That’s a less flexible way of doing. And then as far, the dosages question is a huge question and it varies so widely for people, right? 10 milligrams for some folks is quite a lot. And for some folks is nothing at all. So I think that, if I were to air on if I were hosting people and I didn’t necessarily know what their level of comfort [00:04:00] is with cannabinoids, I would certainly do something where people can have.
[00:04:02] Self-directed that journey. And then also advise, Hey, start off with a small bat and see how that goes. Can I add more to that? Do you, is there
[00:04:09]Bryan Fields: no, keep
[00:04:09]Lauren Wilson: going and then, yeah if I were then having to think about dosages, I would, if I was doing a cooked item or baked item, I would always just do something really low.
[00:04:18] The other thing that. I hear a lot in, in, cannabis dinners and chefs that are hosting these events. And I think this is a really wise way to do it is if you’re infusing all of the food throughout the, multiple courses, you got to make the dosages really low because obviously there’s a cumulative effect there.
[00:04:34] I know certainly some people have gone to events, but by the end of the event, if you’re having cannabis, like infused items in every course at the end of it, it’s like. That’s a lot. That’s not so fun anymore. So definitely spreading cannabinoids out over the course of an evening is smart.
[00:04:51] Again, having people, having a self-directed journey where they can maybe take less or none at all, if they want. Like maybe the second course, like I don’t really want to have kids [00:05:00] was this one. They have the option to sit out.
[00:05:04]Kellan Finney: Yeah. So dosage is in reference to THC, correct. And so there’s this whole entourage effect that we’re still figuring out from a scientific perspective.
[00:05:14] How do you factor that into what you pair certain strains with certain foods when you do that is that something that you even consider in the cooking
[00:05:21]Bryan Fields: process?
[00:05:22]Lauren Wilson: This is something that a lot of people consider, and I think it’s a hard question to answer because it depends on. The, I want to say modality, but that’s not a, that’s not a good word for food, but it depends on the way in which it’s being processed, heat treated, cooked, whatever.
[00:05:36] If you’re taking a strain that is like really citrus forward, then, and you’re baking that, then you might end up losing a lot of those turpines in the process. Whereas some people’s approaches, which is also an interesting way to do it is to not infuse the food at all. Let’s say you have a, a citrus four strain, you would smoke that.
[00:05:54] And then have food that’s very citrus forward and that’s a way of complementing those two things. And then, again, [00:06:00] if you, depending on, let’s say you make an infused oil for a salad dressing, you can do that at a really low heat that will preserve more of the terpene. So then that will be it’s a little easier than to pair a citrus flavored food with that because the turpines are per.
[00:06:16] Preserved, and you can get that experience a little more on the nose. Does
[00:06:20]Bryan Fields: that make sense? That does make sense. Thank you. What is, let’s say a recommended meal. If someone wanted to try and they said, Hey Lauren, like I’m hosting my friends there, they into cannabis would they never tries an infused meal.
[00:06:32] What can I make to experience?
[00:06:35]Lauren Wilson: That is a really impossible question to answer only because the, it really depends on, do you want to have a seam for your meal? So maybe you want to do, like a Hawaiian themed meal, for example. Do you ha what is your level of cooking ability and expertise?
[00:06:50] There’s a whole, there’s a whole lot of ways to tackle that question. But if you’re, if you yourself are inexperienced with cannabis cooking I would say, start with again, [00:07:00] infused oils to me are just such an accessible point to start with cooking to an infused oil and think about how you could use that over the course of a meal.
[00:07:07]Kellan Finney: Yeah, if someone isn’t into kind of going out and purchasing candidates and doing the extraction process, do you think that they could go purchase like a tincture and go through the process that way to expedite the whole generating the food?
[00:07:22]Lauren Wilson: Sorry, you broke up for me on that one.
[00:07:24] Can you repeat?
[00:07:25]Kellan Finney: Yeah, I was just wondering the question was that people aren’t comfortable going out and purchasing flour and actually doing the extraction. In-house do you recommend them going out and purchasing a tincture that’s been activated or just a. Concentrated oil, like a dab, if you will.
[00:07:39] And utilizing that to, to infuse into the feud.
[00:07:43]Bryan Fields: Yeah. So
[00:07:43]Lauren Wilson: there’s different. Yeah. There’s different ways of going about it. You could purchase a tincture. I don’t know that’s the most cost-effective way. I have also heard that people will use concentrates to then melt and diffuse and infuse. That being said, and I, haven’t done a good survey as to what the product landscape looks like at this [00:08:00] point, but I know there are a lot of enterprising chefs out there that have been working to develop infused olive oils and all kinds of different products.
[00:08:06] If you don’t want to do an infusion yourself, I’m pretty sure there’s tons of options out there.
[00:08:12]Bryan Fields: I saw one in California has a hot honey and fuse, and I was interested in making my way out there to acquire that because my God, that would be excellent. So
[00:08:22]Lauren Wilson: it’s going to happen here in New York. We’re on board.
[00:08:26]Bryan Fields: I’ve almost lost hope at this point of getting our act together, but maybe you’re right. Eventually we’ll get ourselves together. So let’s slightly switch gears as a self-proclaimed cannabis nerd. What is one area or one time? That most outside the cannabis industry.
[00:08:42]Lauren Wilson: Ooh. Wow. That’s a great question.
[00:08:46] I think that it’s really it’s. As to people who are very steeped in the cannabis space, no pun intended. I think at sometimes it can be hard to get your head out of that space and realize like how much, that being. I often as a writer, I’m an, I’m [00:09:00] a writer who thinks about audience first all the time.
[00:09:02] And I think about, the general population, who’s not steeped in this space. What are they thinking about? What questions are they asking? What are they like? What is, what are their touch points to cannabis? And I do get a lot of questions from folks as an author. I do get a lot of questions from folks who are new to the space and naive to cannabis.
[00:09:18] And one thing that always really tickles me. Is that how many people don’t know about the endocannabinoid system and that it exists. Once you get into the cannabis space, like it’s one of the first things like the first science touchpoints for anybody is oh we have an endocannabinoid system, CB receptors.
[00:09:34] This is how it works. Great. But most folks, and I think that, as cannabis becomes more of a mainstream conversation, more people do know this, but still a lot of people don’t. So that’s definitely one that sticks. It sticks out to me.
[00:09:45]Bryan Fields: Yeah, I think that’s so well said. And I know Kellen we’ve had conversations.
[00:09:49] We’ve had doctors on the podcast and they are just blown away by the fact that the ECS system is not taught. And again, I asked him like, why not? So Kellen? Why? Like, where are we [00:10:00] in? When is ECS system going to become, where it needs to be?
[00:10:03]Kellan Finney: We’ve had this conversation before. I think it requires federal legalization at this point.
[00:10:07] You know what I mean? That’s going to be the only real catalyst where you’re going to have these massive institutions. Actually start to implement the ECS in medical schools. You know what I mean? I think it’s still risky for him at this point with it being not federally legal, which makes no sense to me, but I think that’s what it’s going to take from a catalyst perspective.
[00:10:26] What are your thoughts, Brian?
[00:10:27]Bryan Fields: I want to ask Lauren a question. So Lauren, like here in New York, right? Like I feel like sometimes from an educational standpoint, we’re behind right on in Kellen’s turpentine. The expectancy of what cannabis is like secondary now. Like it doesn’t even really matter for us here in New York.
[00:10:41] I still have people asking me, like I’m going to take the CBD product. Will I get high? And that’s like the massive disconnect from educational level. So asking you Lauren doctors here, let’s say in New York, if you ask your primary care doctor about the ECS system, do you think five out of 10 would know eight out of 10 window?
[00:10:57] What do you think their,
[00:10:59]Lauren Wilson: I [00:11:00] think I actually have a personal anecdote to share on this. Question, which is that, I think Kellen your point to federal legalization, push. Education forward is valid. And I think you’re right a smaller way and maybe more grassroots way that folks can have an impact if they so choose.
[00:11:15] This is something that I felt bold about doing, but this doctor that I really admire Dustin Sulak came out with a book for clinicians, cannabis for clinicians, and I ended up buying two copies of it and I brought one copy to my primary care physician. And I was just like, Hey, I don’t know.
[00:11:33] What your level of awareness, interest care is in this space at all. But I have an extra copy of this book. I think this doctor is great. Here you go. And my doctor literally just retired a week ago, so she was at the end of her career. And she’s certainly aware of cannabis.
[00:11:49] I don’t know how much she knew about the ECS, but she appreciated having that. So that’s all that to say. That is one way in which we can push the envelope a little bit is a just asking your doctors about it. And [00:12:00] if they don’t know, it could be enough for them to be like, oh, maybe I should look into this a little more seriously.
[00:12:04] But I think that if I were to guesstimate, at New York, how many physicians are well versed on like a endocannabinoid system? I it’s certainly not the majority.
[00:12:14]Bryan Fields: It’s so sad. It’s so sad. So continuing on that, right for CBD 1 0 1, 1 of your books for those who were intrigued, but unsure when to take CBD, what would you record?
[00:12:26]Lauren Wilson: When as in what time of day?
[00:12:28]Bryan Fields: So if you’re, if you wanted to dabble with CBD, but you’re not sure. You have some anxiety or it late at night and you enjoy your wine. Like when would you position it? Because I think sometimes with CBD, at least from my side, is that people are concerned about the psychoactive Venice.
[00:12:39] It might, make their day harder. What would you say is like a good for.
[00:12:43]Lauren Wilson: That’s a great question. And I think that it really depends like all things, it’s an individualized thing. With cannabinoids, we have something called this by phase like effect, right? So at one dose you might experience this at a higher dose.
[00:12:54] You might experience the opposite or something different and with CBD, that can happen. Folks, I would say [00:13:00] probably the number one reason that CBD that folks take CBD is to help with sleep and pain. Probably. That being said. It seems from what I understand. And again, there could be new research that contradicts this, but the mechanism that helps people sleep with CBD is not sedation.
[00:13:16] It’s helping them relax. And so it’s not going to make you sleepy per se. That being said for me personally, if I take a, lower for me, dose of CBD, it has a very alerting effect. And that is something that some people experience. So if you’re new to CBD, I would say, start in the morning and see what happens.
[00:13:37] If you notice that it has an alerting effect or it makes you feel a little bit more awake, you might not want to be taking it at night. I personally never take CBD past, like mid-afternoon because it’ll keep me awake.
[00:13:47]Bryan Fields: What about you?
[00:13:47]Kellan Finney: I’m the same way. CBD kinda forces me focus more honestly.
[00:13:51] And it’s the same with CBG as well. I’ve been dabbling with that more recently as well. And it totally it’s I’m like hyper awake and there’s no way I’m going to go to sleep. I accidentally [00:14:00] took a
[00:14:00]Bryan Fields: CVG gummy.
[00:14:02]Kellan Finney: Two weeks ago at 4:00 PM. And I was up until three in the morning, just like wide awake.
[00:14:07] And I was like, what is going on? And I was like, it has to be that gummy.
[00:14:11]Bryan Fields: I, I appreciate you said by accident, right? For me, I actually have the opposite effect when I take CBD, it, it slows me down and it helps me relax. And again, maybe it’s all mental and maybe it’s all like in my head, but I sometimes take it as like an alcohol replacement where I don’t want to have that glass of wine, but I want to also slow down and relax.
[00:14:28] I pull out the PVS tincture and enjoy that and it slows me down and actually makes me tired. So wonder, if all of my UCS system is
[00:14:36]Lauren Wilson: I don’t think that you should frame it in that your ECS is screwed up. It’s just, yeah. It’s backwards,
[00:14:43] I’m different. And it makes me unique and special. That’s right. All right. So let’s stay on medical research. Is there any new research that you’ve seen from a cannabinoid standpoint that you’re excited about? Any new cannabinoids on the block that make you interested in.
[00:14:56]Lauren Wilson: I think that I’m just generally excited [00:15:00] about the research landscape for cannabis, and I’m really excited about it.
[00:15:03] A lot of there’s been so much research that has been done. That being said, there’s so much research that needs to be done, and so I think that the discoveries that lay ahead are going to be really interesting, especially when you talk about. The entourage effect. That’s an area that we don’t have a lot of support for that.
[00:15:20] Some people will be yay or nay as to whether or not it’s a real thing that’s happening. I personally think that there’s something to it. And I think that once we dig in with scientific research, we’re going to find some interesting things. And then as far as the cannabinoids themselves go. We’re in such early days, THC.
[00:15:36] Cool. We’ve done a bunch of research on THC now, CBD is catching up for that. But when we talk about CBG CBN, THCV, like there’s just like w there’s over a hundred cannabinoids that we have not. Looked into I’m excited about all of them. I know that’s not a great answer.
[00:15:49] And I think that I can’t really point to one versus the other, because we’re at such early stages. I think we really need more research to really dig into these minor cannabinoids. But [00:16:00] certainly that doesn’t. I mean that, that doesn’t like my scientifically like rigorous and pure approach to okay, what does the data show is very different than what happens on the consumer level, where people are just very excited about different compounds and experiments experimenting.
[00:16:16] And whatnot. So
[00:16:17]Bryan Fields: you think that’s going to be a big challenge going forward because there’s so many different cannabinoids and until we can align educational level, for example, if a consumer goes to a product and see CBG and then goes how is this different than CBD? We’re making it harder for the end consumer.
[00:16:31] So I guess what can we do as an industry to simplify the experience so that an end consumer can walk into a dispensary and get. That they want or do associate, is it that initial research to align those things? Is it education towards budtenders? What do you think there?
[00:16:46]Lauren Wilson: I think that’s a great question, but it’s a really layered and complex question because from the consumer education standpoint, I’m a consumer that is this way I want, I don’t want to do work in [00:17:00] understanding a thing.
[00:17:00] And that’s continued as a person who communicates around cannabis science. That’s a fine balance that I have to walk all the time, which is like, how do you communicate complex ideas in an accessible way without overloading people for one. And i, but that being said, I do think that, especially when we’re talking about, a poly pharmacological compound or plant like cannabis, there is there are some things that you should understand.
[00:17:22] There are some basic pieces of science that will help you have. Experiences. So I think that consumers need to take a little bit of responsibility and like getting the lay of the land and understanding what they’re dealing with. And under, at least understanding the basics of the ECS, the basics of the, how the plant works and the different classes of compounds in them.
[00:17:40] And then I think from an industry perspective, I, I really think we need to be transparent about what we don’t know and be transparent about the fact that okay, listen, If a customer came to me and asked me about CBG, I would say, all right, so far we have really basic research that points us in these directions.
[00:17:58] So you might see [00:18:00] therapeutic value in these areas. But the good thing about cannabinoids too, is that, they’re safe compounds, so it’s not like a person can be fearful of experimenting with CBG. They might notice like, oh shoot, I can’t take a gummy at 4:00 PM. Cause I’m going to be awake.
[00:18:12] But in the grand scheme of things, that’s not a big deal. It’s. There is responsibility and I do think bar budtenders do have a big responsibility. When we’re talking about and legally it’s a complicated issue, what can bud tenders do? What can, what they can’t do?
[00:18:24] What should they do? What they’re not doctors like it’s again, like I said, it’s a very complex answer. I think there’s responsibility on all sides of the consumer, the industry. And then obviously, research to keep plugging forward and keep figuring things
[00:18:36] out,
[00:18:37]Bryan Fields: telling you want to chime in there.
[00:18:40]Kellan Finney: Yeah. I think that there’s just so much research to be done on the space and the personally, I think that you can approach ingesting cannabinoids in one or two ways, right? If you’re going out to try to increase your wellness, if you will, then I think that’s a completely different approach and you should be a lot more open-minded to every different cannabinoids.
[00:18:59][00:19:00] CBG or CBD or CBN or anyone that’s available. If you’re looking into the cannabis space to treat an illness, I think that’s a completely different approach and that’s more of a pharmaceutical and like medicinal aspect. And I think you really need to work with your medical professional and if you’re approaching.
[00:19:17] To try to treat the illness. It’s a completely different conversation. If you’re just trying to either have a good time recreationally or improve your wellbeing, then I think approaching it from the, and I don’t think you can harm it. And like Lauren said, like most all these cannabinoids are harmless, so you really don’t have anything to really worry about except maybe important I sleep,
[00:19:36]Bryan Fields: i, that was really well said gallon. And one of my favorite ways of separating the conversation. I think that’s one of the biggest challenges. Everyone just grouped it together. Like I want cannabinoids and that’s not really how that approach works. It has to be on an individual need faces, and I’m really glad that you clarified that.
[00:19:51] So Lauren, keep it on that topic. Teach seat. Oh, seeing a lot of news out there about it. And obviously with cannabinoids being [00:20:00] popular and new ones rising is THC. Oh, the next new popular.
[00:20:03]Lauren Wilson: It might be the next new popular cannabinoid. I personally myself have not consumed it. I can’t speak to, the effects or the experience.
[00:20:11] I have heard that it is very potent. Yes, it is psychoactive. So I don’t want to be a word nerd stickler about it. CBD is technically psychoactive, meaning that it just, creates an effect in your brain that has some impact I like to distinguish psychoactive and intoxicating.
[00:20:30] So THC is intoxicating THC. THC is intoxicating. And in fact, it, as I said is very potent. So it can be very intoxicating and some people have described the experience with THC. I was psychedelic. So having that next level. I don’t know if Hulu like hallucinations are happening. I w we’ll we can dig into it a different way.
[00:20:51] Do you want me
[00:20:51]Bryan Fields: to say I got more questions?
[00:20:54]Lauren Wilson: The popularity of teach CEO, remains to be seen. Do you want to jump in with a question? [00:21:00] Okay. But when I think about the THC-O and kind of the same broad umbrella as Delta eight, as these other, if you want to call them semi-synthetic compounds that are popping up and, THC-O might be.
[00:21:16] A really valuable, useful compound, whether it be for a fun experience or helping, treat a condition same with Delta eight, the trouble is that. These compounds operate in kind of a legal gray area. So both in the case of Delta eight and THC-O they can both be synthesized from Delta nine, THC, but what’s happening is that they’re being synthesized from CBD hemp CBD specifically, right?
[00:21:45] Hemp is legal. So you take some hemp CBD. You change it into Delta 8 or you change it into THC-O And where we’re seeing the most use and adoption for these compounds is, are in states that don’t have access to legal Delta 9 [00:22:00] and that’s all fine and good, except for the fact that this the CBD market is not regulated at all.
[00:22:08] There’s no oversight on how the. Compounds are being made. And, I don’t have a complete and thorough understanding as to the chemistry behind them, but from my understanding, the synthesis process can bring with it. A lot of other weird compounds, not so good byproduct. And if there’s no regulation and oversight as to what’s going into these products, there’s no testing.
[00:22:31] There’s nothing to validate. There’s nothing to show that there’s all this kind of muck. Let’s call it. In addition to the D Delta eight or TCO, that’s dangerous place to play. As far as consumer safety is concerned. It’s a thorny beast at the moment from where I sat. Yeah.
[00:22:46]Bryan Fields: I think that’s really well said. And I want Kaelin do expand on that because we’ve had some conversations here. We have not dabbled with THC O though. So Kevin, what’s your thoughts? It’s the same
[00:22:53]Kellan Finney: as I’ve, I’m a, I have a little soap box regarding all of these other contaminants that are coming from getting up [00:23:00] there.
[00:23:00] The synthetic routes or CBD is now being changed into all these different cannabinoids. And there’s a reason pharmaceuticals are really expensive, right? And there’s a massive amount of paperwork and verification and just insurance that goes into. The, even your aspirin, when you go take your aspirin, the chemicals in there have gone through hundreds of different tests to ensure that it’s exactly what you’re taking and everything in there is safe and there’s no side effect, the least amount of side effects possible.
[00:23:31] And so like the amount of money that pharmaceutical companies spend to ensure that the API that they’re providing consumers is the only that chemical. Astronomical, this is why the pharmaceutical industry is so massive. And for all of these kind of garage chemists, if you will, because all of the CBD industry is new, right.
[00:23:51] Have industries new. So it’s a new industry, everyone’s a startup in the industry. So no one has a really robust organic chemistry, [00:24:00] synthetic laboratory, they piecemeal it together, bootstrapped it, if you will. And they’re doing garage chemistry. And at that point, the amount of byproducts that come.
[00:24:08] From these organic synthetic reactions are Ash. It’s insane, right? Like they’re using chemicals that like methylene chloride very carcinogenic. They’re using piece off on a tall. You wait to do the synthesis. So all of these chemicals that people have never even heard of are very, they’re very toxic chemicals.
[00:24:24] And not only that, it’s not like they take CBD. Add these other chemicals to it and all of the CBD, then just go straight to Delta eight. For instance, there’s going to be Delta eight. There’s going to be Delta nine. There’s going to be Delta 10. There’s going to be all these other chemicals that we don’t even have even identified chat.
[00:24:39] And you’re just being like, all right, Willy nilly. I’ll just throw all that in my body and see what happens. I think that’s where the biggest danger is to the industry in my perspective, because. We are already fighting these cultural stigma, right? Like it’s devil’s lettuce. Like we’re already fighting that from the last 60, 70 years.
[00:24:57] And now we’re going to start creating poison [00:25:00] and people the hazards that could potentially. Consumers could have from ingesting, these compounds could really just shoot the whole industry and the flood. So that’s my soapbox.
[00:25:10]Bryan Fields: It’s so challenging, right? The S the CBD market. It’s so frustrating, but I think THC is going to have an additional layered problem.
[00:25:18] And I think it’s just from a marketing standpoint, if you think about it, like Delta eight we understood the rise in popularity and THC. Oh, similar. But the one challenge I think is that when consumers see THC, oh, They’re associated with THC, right? No, they get high with it. And the real challenge is if they can get higher with THC, then let’s with normal Delta nine.
[00:25:38] Then I think there’s going to start to be this more craving towards it. And I’m fearful, like Warren was saying that the states that don’t have. Legal use are going to reach for this and be like, I can get higher. It’s THC. It’s likely related to THC and TC. How far apart could they really be?
[00:25:54] And we don’t have to discuss all the other nuances, but people make these assumptions when they can buy a product [00:26:00] that it is safe. And I’m not saying that it’s right, and I’m not saying the consumer’s wrong, but I think there is this false sense of security that if I can buy this product, it’s. And it’s got a label on it.
[00:26:12] It’s got the label and no one reads the label, right? That’s the craziest part that I go TTO. How far off is that is THC. One time, my uncle he was trying to product, and this is for CBD CBG. It was like I think my cousin was like, oh, it’s like CBG this and teach. And he’s like just rambling off letters.
[00:26:28] And he was like, what’s next? He’s like this. And it’s yeah, dude, like there’s a lot of cannabinoids and it is confusing. And all he said at the end was I just want to get high. That’s all his singular focus was. And I think that goes back to speaking towards people’s interests and understanding that at the end of the day, we need to simplify it.
[00:26:43] When we operate in this gray area, in the gray area, which teach the O is, which is weird to think about. It’s just going to layer the complexities too, because the politicians don’t know what they’re regulating and are going to be even more confused when they go, can we just group all these things together?
[00:26:59] And it’s not really [00:27:00] how it works.
[00:27:01]Kellan Finney: And it could be really detrimental to, because there could be a massive medical benefit for the O and then all of a sudden it just gets shoved into a box because of this negative outcome of the consumer, taking it with poor chemistry going on in the
[00:27:15]Bryan Fields: background, even worse, like another fate gate, if THC O is all these days, like all we need is one bad. Where another politician get up there and be like, see, like this person, he’s 18 years old, he consumed this and then he drove and now all this bad publicity. And now we set back an industry that already has all these challenges because of all these other like limitations.
[00:27:34] It’s definitely going to be one of those cat and mouse games. We’re figuring out how can we regulate this effectively clean it? How can we make sure the consumer who’s craving this product can get one in a safe, secure, Awesome. That’s going to be a challenge. So I want to continue on that conversations.
[00:27:51] Let’s talk about the psychedelic aspect. You said sometimes people you’ve never consumed HCO, but they’ve related that feeling. Do you see psychedelics and the cannabinoid [00:28:00] industry merging in the future? What do you see for that?
[00:28:03]Lauren Wilson: Oh, merging kind of
[00:28:06]Bryan Fields: like blending together. Like everyone grouping into a category together saying okay, like these two people, we’re going to put these two events in one group and call it.
[00:28:13] Let’s call it. Stigma
[00:28:16]Kellan Finney: stigmatized saw that with Delek labs, right Canada. They were originally CBDB focused on cannabis research and they completely now do canvas research and psychedelic psilocybin research as well. So they’re, they’ve merged the two. It seems like a natural one. What do you think Lauren?
[00:28:31]Lauren Wilson: I, again, complicated question because merging could mean any number of things. So like from a business perspective and looking at the evolution of these two, psychedelics and cannabis purely from a market perspective, like sure. It makes sense that if there’s crossover, as a person who’s been steeped in the cannabis space for the last five years, now, just shifting my focus to the psychedelic space, just as a person who’s interested in the science and the socio-cultural side of things in history, there’s a lot of.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] There’s a lot of shared background there. When you put forward that question though, my mind jumped immediately to oh, interesting. Is there some way to combine these compounds therapeutically, whether it be, as a health and wellness thing or as a medical thing, and I can’t speculate to that.
[00:29:18] I can’t say, I don’t know psychedelic science well enough, I’m starting to, I’m just starting to get into that space, but that’s an interesting question because if you look at something like. I’m trying to think of like a condition that’s commonly that’s been, that’s commonly that’s common to both psychedelics and cannabis.
[00:29:32] Do you think of, I think of PTSD. MGMA is on the verge of FDA approval for the treatment of PTSD. Cannabis has long been used for PTSD sufferers. Could those things, should they be used together? I can’t say again as a science, I can’t say that I, that is a yes or a no, but it’s an interesting question.
[00:29:51] Yeah,
[00:29:52]Bryan Fields: I think that,
[00:29:52]Kellan Finney: that, I think that honestly, that’s where the industry could have a huge breakthrough from a medicinal standpoint. And that goes [00:30:00] back to the entourage effect. And we’re talking about like poly pharmacy, instead of the traditional single API. Like diving into this polypharmacy could completely change our understanding and the landscape of how we treat illnesses and the medicines and the whole pharmaceutical space.
[00:30:13] So I think the potential there is
[00:30:14]Bryan Fields: massive. Yeah. Massive is almost under staking, right? We don’t know about the ECS system. We’re not really sure how either of the cannabinoids work collectively or separately, or even, and then blending that with like the psychedelics and the more. There’s so much to uncover in the next 10, 20 years.
[00:30:29] I could only imagine, the type of breakthroughs from a medicinal standpoint, we are like literally on the verge of just overcoming so many of these unknowns and figuring out maybe for the longest time we’ve looked at this the wrong way. We start looking at how to solve problems versus let’s just lock this in the corner.
[00:30:46] Like you said, Cowen, and hopefully never have to deal with.
[00:30:49]Lauren Wilson: And people are already combining, psilocybin and MTMA recreationally, right? You’ve got, if you want to do a hippy flip, you do mushrooms and MDMs, but maybe there’s [00:31:00] some, like something that’s so interesting about the evolution of both of these spaces is that if you look back at the ancient history of use, traditionally medicinally.
[00:31:10] People knew something like on an intuitive level, we move forward with these compounds and then science kind of catches up to figure out what the story is. But, maybe there’s some, there’s something there already that people are dipping their toe into and figuring.
[00:31:23]Kellan Finney: Have you had the book food of gods or it’s really good if you’re just now diving into the, like a psychedelic space, I highly recommend that it’s written by this really intelligent, like a cultural anthropologist who also has a ton of like scientific background and the way he goes through the whole history of humans and societies interaction with psychedelics.
[00:31:45] Mushrooms. It’s pretty phenomenal, honestly. So
[00:31:47]Bryan Fields: I highly recommend it. Yeah, of course. Is that going to be a harder stigma for us to fight collectively? Because obviously there are people who are now coming around and accepting, cannabis as potential medicine, but then you layer [00:32:00] on top, psychedelics has an aspect warn.
[00:32:02] Do you think that’s going to make it harder for, let’s say the older generation to be accepting of, let’s say the newer potential ways.
[00:32:08]Lauren Wilson: Good question. I think that at least what we’ve seen so far psychedelics is coming along faster than cannabis. And I think that’s, I think that’s in thanks to the decades of work that has been done.
[00:32:19] Breaking stigma around cannabis psychedelics is reaping the benefits of some of, changing public opinion already. And even, with Oregon’s measure 1 0 9 last year. The hill reported on a survey that was done shortly after that. And one third of Americans are already saying that they think psychedelics have medicinal value.
[00:32:36] That’s like where the psychedelics journey is evolving a lot faster than cannabis has. If I think about. Someone like my mom I think when I talk about psychedelics, she’s that feels like a stretch to her. And she, I grew up personally, with a mom who was like, just say no to drugs and cannabis as a gateway drug and all of this stuff.
[00:32:54] So for her, I think. Based on, how I see her [00:33:00] reacting and that’s it’s she’s got to get her head around that. So it’s I think it’s a mixed bag. I think if you’re talking specifically about the older generation, that psychedelics might be a harder sell, that makes sense. A lot of people did acid in the sixties and seventies, so
[00:33:13]Bryan Fields: We’re not judging them, honestly.
[00:33:16]Kellan Finney: The scientific evidence behind MGMA and siliciden is so strong, which I think is why it has gained the momentum is it’s just moving so quickly with it. It’s literally like they can just show how the brain is being rewired in real-time it’s phenomenal in terms of it just as clearly having an effect, you
[00:33:33]Bryan Fields: know what I
[00:33:34]Lauren Wilson: mean?
[00:33:34] Yeah. Yeah. And the longterm and the thing that I think is particularly cool is, the long-term. Therapeutic outcomes are strong. It’s working when we look at things like depression, PTSD, substance use disorders, like there is just such strong evidence and such promising, like it’s like there’s a reason that psilocybin is a breakthrough therapy treatment.
[00:33:54] There’s a reason that MDME is about to be approved. These things are really showing huge value. And not [00:34:00] only that, if you look at other. Other pharmaceuticals, the options that we have now for these conditions, these treatments often are, they’re like not one-time treatments, but it’s not an ongoing, it’s not a, it’s not an SSRI that you have to take every day for God knows how long it’s, it’s a few treatments that the risk for D developing dependency is like virtually not there, not for all of them, for MTMA psilocybin.
[00:34:21] Yeah, I’m so excited about psychedelics as medicine and I think. Yeah, much in the way that I’m excited about the future of cannabis. I think that, we’re really starting to figure some stuff out as human beings. And that makes me really happy.
[00:34:35]Bryan Fields: I think in order to get where we want to go, though, we have to adjust public opinion.
[00:34:39] I think like you were saying, Lauren is so spot on. It’s going to be so challenging because I can only imagine the conversations would be, what do you want to legalize next cocaine? And it’s no, you’re like, we’re doing it in a progressive measure for medicinal benefits. One of the ways I think we can do that is if the doctors become more educated in some of those scientific benefits, like you were saying Kellen, because I think they helped switch the opinion, right?
[00:34:59] When you’re [00:35:00] sitting down with your doctor and he recommends this approach, it might be one that kind of allows you to take it minute. I didn’t think about that. Do you think that’s something that I’d be comfortable with? And I think that’s the type of conversations that the older generation needs the app with their physician in order to feel more comfortable.
[00:35:15] When you are, I do approach our parents about this. They’re not like this is wild,
[00:35:20]Lauren Wilson: right? And I think another layer of that, especially looking at psychedelics, I was listening to a really interesting talk last night by, from someone who works in public health. And if you look at psychedelic specifically, and like I mentioned, the big.
[00:35:33] The big therapeutic applications that are showing the most promise around depression, PTSD, substance use. These are all conditions that like mental health as a broad umbrella has a lot of stigma around it, right? People don’t want to talk about mental health challenges. They don’t want to talk about their addictions.
[00:35:49] They don’t want to talk about their depression. It’s those are. Barriers to entry right there. So how do you break get past that mental health stigma barrier to then [00:36:00] open up the therapeutic potential of psychedelics, which then in and of itself has stigma around it? It’s a very complex multifaceted problem that I think that we need to really dive into in a more holistic way.
[00:36:15]Kellan Finney: That’s a click for sure.
[00:36:19]Bryan Fields: Since Lauren, since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconception?
[00:36:26]Lauren Wilson: Ooh, that’s a great question. I think that one major shift that I see happening, that when I got into, and also as a person who’s in, engaged with cannabis since I was a young human.
[00:36:36] So for many years, Is that, cannabis is an addictive and that’s a conversation that, for the longest, I was like, no cannabis isn’t as active. If you can become addicted to cannabis. It’s and, the fact is that you can, and it’s something that, It’s a hard topic of conversation for people who love the plant and want to see it proliferate.
[00:36:53] And I’m one of those people. But I think that, like you said, as an industry, we need to have hard [00:37:00] conversations. We need to be transparent, whether I were talking about semi-synthetic cannabinoids or we’re talking about, the wide range of effects that cannabis has in our bodies. And. So yeah, I think that seeing that conversation coming up more and more starting to have more balanced conversations around these substances because they’re complex, the way they interact in our body is complex.
[00:37:21] We’re still trying to figure all of that out and having balanced conversations about anything doesn’t make it good or bad. It just helps further. Understanding and acceptance in my mind. So I think that’s the biggest one that I’ve seen as being a value for the industry. Going forward, being a little bit more open to talking, having those conversations.
[00:37:44]Bryan Fields: Okay. All right. Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would it be? Ooh.
[00:37:59]Lauren Wilson: Ask [00:38:00] questions. Be curious, keep asking questions, keep being curious. There’s a lot to know about the cannabis family and the more questions you ask, the more delighted you’ll be.
[00:38:12] Honestly.
[00:38:14]Bryan Fields: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Prediction time. Okay. Lauren it’s 2025 is the psychedelic and cannabinoid industry working in harmony or against.
[00:38:27]Lauren Wilson: I’m my gut, like I’m an idealistic human being and my initial thought was they’re working together because why wouldn’t they, why shouldn’t they.
[00:38:38] Do either of you have a counterpoint to that?
[00:38:40]Kellan Finney: I completely agree. I think that there’s a ton of similarities. And so I was listening to a talk almost maybe last March by an individual named Dr. Marcus Rogan. And he was saying that it’s pretty phenomenal in terms of the chemistry at a molecular level.
[00:38:56] From a similarity perspective, right? So THCA [00:39:00] is what is naturally made by the cannabis plant. And that actually goes through decarboxylation, which is where you activate it to THC. And then you can actually get. With psilocybin, you have to do, what’s called a dephosphorylation, right? So there’s an almost identical step that needs to occur.
[00:39:14] And there’s enzymes in your stomach that do this for you, when you eat it. And also when you boil it too, so if you make tea and so it turns in it literally phosphorolates it. And so it’s a very similar chemistry. So it’s pretty wild that even on a molecular level, there’s these kinds of really simple.
[00:39:30] Chemistry’s that need to occur for a, to interact with the human body. So I believe that they’re only going to continue to move forward. And the other point I want to make is that there could be potential that you mentioned the addiction within cannabis. There could be the potential that psilocybin or psychedelics then could treat the addiction that people don’t talk about in cannabis.
[00:39:51]Bryan Fields: When you think of that, right? The problems that people don’t wanna admit, they have, there’s a solution to those yet. Scientifically I agree with both. But the [00:40:00] world doesn’t work like that. And from a business standpoint, it’s not going to happen. The cannabis industry is not going to want the psychedelic industry to rise in popularity because right now the pristine bad boy of the space or of the world is the cannabis industry.
[00:40:13] It is the hottest, fastest growing industry. And it’s not going to want another industry to come forward and to take a chance. And to start having conversations and Capitol hill about justice psychedelics because unfortunately our politicians are uneducated. They make decisions poorly and they move so slow.
[00:40:30] So if there’s another industry that’s battling for forefront and understanding, and education and priority on their list, they’re not going to want it to happen. So I believe that it’s going to be one of those killer, be killed style industries, and you’ll see the industries not want to be closely aligned.
[00:40:46] And Mike. Public opinion, pushed against the other in order to put it to the back burner as cannabis continues to fight its own stigmas pushing
[00:40:54]Kellan Finney: forward. I think there’s a difference. So I think that the cannabis industry, you can, there’s a [00:41:00] recreational aspect of cannabis. Sure. I don’t think that there’s ever going to be a recreational activity.
[00:41:06] Aspect of the psychedelic industry. Like I just mentally cannot envision people being able to go to a store and buy LSD and just Willy nilly, take it and go out into the streets. That’s just, or even mushrooms at that, you hear stories of people in college running around naked and like just the wildest things happen.
[00:41:23] So I just don’t think there’s ever going to be recreational, like psilocybin floating around out there. I could be wrong though, but
[00:41:29]Bryan Fields: Oh,
[00:41:29]Lauren Wilson: sorry. Okay. I was going to say Kelowna, I’m on the same page as you, you brought up the same point that I was going to bring up and I think. At least in the short term, I agree with you.
[00:41:38] I can’t speculate as to what, the next 50 years will look like as far as drug legalization goes, there’s certainly folks out there that advocate for the legalization of all drugs. And I think that there’s an intelligent. To be made there. But that being said in the short term, I agree with you.
[00:41:52] I don’t think we’re going to see psychedelics legalized for recreational use. And I think that’s one, one way in which the [00:42:00] cannabis industry can maintain its its hold. If that. If that’s what it wants to do. I think, I don’t know, again, as an idealistic person, I feel like that’s like boiling it down to, a pure business arguments and a pure industry argument is sent to me because I think that both the psychedelics and the cannabis space as far as medicines are concerned and helping people are like, they have so much potential.
[00:42:23] And to want to edge out one medicine that could be really helpful to people is just, why would we want to do that?
[00:42:30]Bryan Fields: It’s the same battle that pharmaceutical industry is doing right now with cannabis. Obviously we saw Pfizer entered the space, but it seems like prior to that, the pharma space was like, you know what?
[00:42:40] We’re not gonna allow this to come forward. And I think there’s always going to be that incumbent versus like new challenger. And I wonder if that’s going to be the.
[00:42:46]Lauren Wilson: That’s a great point. I think that the one thing, the one advantage, I guess you could say, and frankly, I don’t view this as an advantage, and I think that it’s highly problematic, but from a pure business perspective, I think that one advantage that psychedelics [00:43:00] do have is that they’re, they seem to be a little bit more patentable, and if you want to get into the patent playing game and you want to look at the pharma industry, I don’t think that’s in the interest of public health or healing people, there’s more opportunity to make money and you can patent lots of compounds. So I think, that’s why we’re seeing a lot of money move into the psychedelic space to begin with.
[00:43:21] That’s again, like I said, I think that the patent issue is one of the huge problems with pharma industry. They could, that could give psychedelics and advantage from a business.
[00:43:29]Bryan Fields: Yeah, for sure. For sure. So Lauren, for our listeners that want to get in touch, where can they learn more?
[00:43:35]Lauren Wilson: They can check out my website, Lauren M as in monkey, wilson.com or you can find me on socials at Lauren does
[00:43:43]Bryan Fields: this.
[00:43:44] Awesome. Thanks so much for your time. Normally come up on the show notes.
[00:43:47]Lauren Wilson: Thank you so much. Have a great rest of the day.
Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
As the former head of U.S. Marketing Communications at AB InBev, Lisa traded her crown as “Queen of Beers” for a new moniker: “The Cannabis Publicist.” She established Trailblaze to bring a more sophisticated, disciplined “big CPG” approach to cannabis brand storytelling and help new players in this nascent industry find their way into the mainstream. (Plus, the “Bud Girl” pun was irresistible).
With over twenty years of experience working inside some of the world’s most admired companies, Lisa has earned a reputation for building culturally relevant consumer brands through creative campaigns and flawless execution within high-stakes, regulated environments.
Under her leadership, Trailblaze has become a go-to marketing communications agency for Fortune 500 companies entering the burgeoning cannabis industry, as well as start-ups looking to put their brands on the map.
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in regard to the hemp & cannabis industry. Our forward-thinking team can diagnose, analyze & optimize every detailed nuance of your company to keep your business safe, smart, and profitable. Our flexibility and experience combined with ongoing research create unique insights into how to best grow your market share. Contact us directly at [email protected]
Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24
Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: What’s up guys. Welcome back to that episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guests. Lisa Weezer, founder of trailblazer. Lisa, thanks for taking the time. How are you doing?
[00:00:14] Lisa Weser: I’m great. Thanks for having me on
[00:00:16] Bryan Fields: excited. Dive in Kellen.
[00:00:17] How are you
[00:00:18] Kellan Finney: doing? I’m doing well, just watching it snow out here in Colorado and excited to talk to another east coasters that will be decided before
[00:00:25] Bryan Fields: the show. So she’s in the Eastern time zone. So I think that would have to put her on the east side of the map. Cool. So Lisa, before we dive in, it’d be great for our listeners.
[00:00:33] Get a little background about you and how you got into the Canada.
[00:00:36] Lisa Weser: Sure. In my previous life, I was head of marketing communications at AB InBev, which you probably know best as Budweiser and bud light, the king of beers. And I oversaw brand communications for their entire us portfolio of beers and non beers.
[00:00:51] Half of the category, Like seltzers, et cetera. And that included, all of their super bowl spots sponsorships of, everything from the [00:01:00] Grammys to, basically every sports league. So it involved a lot of travel, a lot of events, a lot of, marketing and advertising, celebrity work, et cetera.
[00:01:09] And getting to work with a lot of big names and big budgets. So moving into cannabis was very humbling in that. A lot of those resources. But it was around about 2017. I think when I first saw constellation make their initial investment in canopy growth, which was about a 10% investment, it’s now almost 40%.
[00:01:27] That was a real bellwether moment where I saw everybody around me kind of start to freak out in the alcohol world. Cause it was like, okay, this is happening. These worlds are coming together. Alcohol is going to stop fighting their Awana and actually. Back it. And for me that was really a signal that it was time to bounce and start my own practice.
[00:01:46] And at that point I had done about six Superbowls and, it was starting to feel like Groundhog day. So I was ready for something new. So I had made the leap to start my own. Which I really launched in 2018, starting by getting into cannabis beverages since I knew that space [00:02:00] really well.
[00:02:00] And, started humbly taking kind of any client that I could work with, small budgets, startups. My dream was to get back into working with big brands again. And within about two years, we had become an agency of record for canopy growth, ironically. So the company that triggered me to get into the industry so it has come full circle.
[00:02:18] Bryan Fields: And I’m really glad that you shared that. So before we dive into some of those specifics, moving from a, such an established well-positioned career to cannabis, was there hesitancies, were there people around you saying Lisa what are you doing? It’s cannabis. Can you take us through that?
[00:02:32] Lisa Weser: Yeah. I didn’t tell anybody that I was doing it right off the bat. I think I was most afraid to probably tell my parents, even though I’m in my forties, you’re still afraid to tell your parents that. Cause they always want you to have that solid job having. I’m stuck.
[00:02:45] And I was shocked that my parents really backed it. I think that they understood the opportunity with cannabis and also had seen, what my lifestyle had been like for the past several years behind the scenes of job like that it’s a dream job, but it is a lot of work. It [00:03:00] is a lot of travel.
[00:03:00] It is a lot of strain. And and ultimately I think that there’s a big difference working for somebody else’s brand versus building your own brand. And I really feel time, if I was going to work that hard to do it for myself, so got a lot of faculty in there. That said, in my role I’ve been a spokesperson for a lot of brands.
[00:03:17] So the day that I had to turn all my socials over from Budweiser to cannabis was definitely frightening because at that point I was still getting calls from other CPG companies. And I did feel that once. Signaled and branded myself as cannabis that I might not ever be able to go back. And that it could be like the death knell for my career.
[00:03:36] Shockingly, and to my great surprise and pleasure. I think it’s probably the thing that made my career, I really thought Budweiser was going to be the height of my career. But cannabis, especially at the time that I got in it, there weren’t very many people doing it, especially in marketing and PR.
[00:03:52] So it was actually a way to really build my brand and stand out. And because I knew so many people in the entertainment [00:04:00] industry, The CBG industry, they all knew I had made the move and once they did, they started referring people to me. Cause they all were like, oh, I know somebody doing cannabis.
[00:04:08] So to this day, four years in a hundred percent of my business is referral based. I’ve never had to do marketing or go try to pitch a new client. It’s still all comes in referrals from my network, which has been fantastic.
[00:04:20] Bryan Fields: Yeah, that’s amazing. And I know one of your clients is Mary Matt, and we had the fortunate time to speaking with Howard about the the genius marketing opportunity.
[00:04:28] So I’d love to get from your perspective, when Mary med approached you about the brownie idea, can you take us, what your role was in that and what it was like, moving on from, let’s say the origin of that da getting the photo and then how you approach the media.
[00:04:41] Lisa Weser: Yeah in this case they didn’t approach us with the brownie idea.
[00:04:44] They approached us with a challenge. If you’ve talked to Howard and you know him, he is a storied marketer in his own. And a pretty tough cookie when it comes to a client, there’s they always say there’s nothing worse than having a client that comes from the same background as you, because they know exactly what they’re doing and they’re going to push you harder than [00:05:00] anybody else.
[00:05:00] And that’s how he knows it. When he hired us, he said, I want a PR star once a quarter, we’re gonna he hired us on fact, but was said, basically prove yourself. I want a stock, but he didn’t really give us any parameters other than, here’s some of the things we’re going to be doing this quarter.
[00:05:15] So we took a look at what they had coming up. And one of the things that was coming up was the launch of this brand Bobby’s baked, which was an edibles brand that included. Little brownies. But the problem was that they were a mark. They were launching it in one market, Massachusetts, not even in Boston, in a small dispensary, about 90 minutes outside.
[00:05:33] And it was, so it had really limited availability. Also. They were launching it right before the holidays, which is a terrible time to do anything because it’s such a busy time for reporters and there’s so much other news going on. So we looked at that and decided that we wanted to build a staunch around that moment.
[00:05:52] We always keep what we call a cultural calendar. So my team at the beginning of the year, we look at everything that’s going to be going on in the year [00:06:00] from, the Superbowl in the Grammys to some of those silly little days national brownie day. And you see them on Instagram now, right?
[00:06:07] It’s oh, it’s sibling. Dog day, whatever. We put all of those on the calendar as well as the cannabis moments, like four 20, and we’d look at the clients who are representing and we try to make some matches and see if we can find some fun ways to bring their brains. To culture.
[00:06:23] So in this case, we saw national brownie day with coming up coinciding with the general timing that they wanted to launch this brand. So we approached them with three ideas. One of them was for this brownie. The first idea we approached them with, we actually liked better, but what’s going to cost. Six figures to do once we started specking it out and it just wasn’t in the budget.
[00:06:44] So we went back to the drawing board with this brownie idea and presented it to Howard. He loved it helped us build on it because, we had the idea, but we couldn’t make the brown and he had to help us get that done in their facility and he had to sell it in. It what might’ve seen as silly, [00:07:00] risky idea into his leadership.
[00:07:01] So he really Take it to the finish line so that it could actually execute. And then, he trusted us to do it. And it was really a true agency, client collaboration, where we all rolled up our sleeves and figured out how we were going to get this done. And it turned out to be, one of the most viral stories of the year, even at the end of the year, which we’re still blown away.
[00:07:20] I think it’s still surpassed even my biggest Superbowl ad in terms of
[00:07:23] impressions.
[00:07:24] Bryan Fields: Yeah. And I’m really glad that you shared that because I was trying to compare it to a super bowl impression and I wasn’t even sure, because once the numbers get up to that size, it’s almost really challenging to know because the numbers are almost silly at that certain point.
[00:07:36] So take us through that process. You get the photo. How do you go about, communicating with mainstream media about this? Because there’s always sometimes a hesitant we’ve found with. Covering cannabis companies, whether it’s their audience is different or there’s a stigma attached. So is that a challenge that you had when you wanted to get this photo and try to get into the.
[00:07:54] Yeah just to back up, part of the reason that we decided to peg this to national brownie day, and part of [00:08:00] the reason that we have a cultural calendar is because reporters have an incredibly hard job, right? They have to. Several stories a day sometimes if not, per week and they have to sell them into their editors and for a story to get written, it has to have a sense of urgency or reason to write it today.
[00:08:17] So when you’re pitching, they’re getting a hundred or more pitches a day, so you have to give them something with a hook. That was part of why we picked this day is so that there would be a moment Granted national brownie day is not a day that you probably even heard of before.
[00:08:29] It’s not like it’s a huge moment, but we knew that it would give them a reason to. But beyond that, we knew that they needed to have a strong visual assets. In talking to Mary med and to Howard, we said, here’s what we need to make this successful. And, we need you to be able to actually make the brownie.
[00:08:45] And it needs to be big enough to be. Significant right. If we’re going to get the types of results that we want. So we went and we looked at Dennis and we looked at what the biggest one was. We did, we scoured Google to see what anybody else had done, what visuals existed so that we [00:09:00] could come up with kind of the base parameters of what we needed this thing to be.
[00:09:03] And then we set up. We need a strong photo. We need one really strong visual asset. It can’t be photo-shopped, it can’t be overproduced. It has to be like a money shot, but it has to feel authentic. And that was really what we asked for and that’s what they delivered. They. Organize the photo shoot the day of very low fi just getting a photographer in there with a camera and figuring out how to shoot this thing, getting the actual people that they fit in the photo, which turned out to add a lot of fun, the expressions on their faces, I think got a lot of the commentary and pickup.
[00:09:35] And that’s always true, when you are, when you’re building something for marketing, especially. In a digital world and especially during a pandemic, when everybody is looking at a screen all day, A strong visual is what you have to absolutely lead with. The other thing that we asked for was just a by the numbers give, so we knew that we needed to say this thing weighs this many pounds.
[00:09:57] It has this many milligrams. We [00:10:00] actually had infographic built to go along with the photo that didn’t get as many as much pickup, but we were able to pitch and say, this thing weighed this much. It took this many sticks of butter, this many. Flour. And I think that really helped to bring it to life for reporters and help them understand the magnitude of it.
[00:10:17] And that helped with the pickup
[00:10:18] It’s so well done. And I really enjoyed as a marketer by trade, going through the process, seeing it, recognizing what was actually happening and then going back and figuring out, like, why is this thing so amazing. I keep staring at this photo and I don’t understand why I’m obsessed with the concept of it.
[00:10:33] So two quick questions for you, and then we’ll bring Kellen in. I apologize. Lisa did you know, in your gut that this was going to work, like when you saw the photo, did you have a feeling that this was going to hit? And then second, at what point after you started pushing out and doing some of the press for it, did you recognize this thing is really taken.
[00:10:51] Lisa Weser: Sure. Look, we were asked to do a viral stunt and it’s always the worst. When someone asks you to make something go viral because you can’t make something go viral, [00:11:00] especially when you’re doing PR, which is earned, meaning you’re not paying anybody to write anything. You’re not putting any money behind this.
[00:11:06] You’re completely counting on the site guys to pick this thing up. That said I’ve done a lot of these things in my career, so I know. What the formula is in terms of what people will pick up, what you can’t control is timing. I once worked on a campaign and a stump, it was supposed to launch in the day with us, a launch turned out to be the Boston marathon bombing.
[00:11:24] If something else happens in the news, it can completely. Over and we didn’t have a ton of flexibility on the state because we had decided to do it on national brownie day. But we knew that we had a formula that was intended to work. We had, the great photo a great story behind it.
[00:11:42] We know that the first idea that we had I’ll, I don’t know if Howard shared that the first idea. There’s also the same week, there’s a national gingerbread day and we were going to build the world’s biggest gingerbread house that was addable in decorate it with a bunch of edibles. But then when we were looking at fabricating it and the [00:12:00] legalities of transporting it and how it was going to be done, it was getting really expensive and really complicated and time intensive.
[00:12:06] And we just couldn’t get it done in the timeframe. Sometimes the best ideas are simple and like who hasn’t had. An edible brownie experience or a formative one. It’s just the first thing people think of when they think of an edible. So we knew that it was going to be so relatable to the masses. And even if you’ve never touched cannabis what a cannabis brownie is.
[00:12:25] So I think that this idea actually ended up more effective than a gingerbread house ever could have been. So sometimes you get a happy accident when you have the challenge of time and budget. So that was the first piece of it. But with, there’s never a guarantee that it will work in terms of what we knew it was working.
[00:12:42] We actually announced it the day before national brownie day by design because we knew that reporters would need time to get our call or email or text. The story, that they were going to have to get that it was going to take some time. So we wanted to get it to them the day before.
[00:12:57] And there’s always that nervous moment, the [00:13:00] first six hours of that day, we send it out and, we were waiting and there weren’t really, there was maybe a story, two stories, but we weren’t getting like the. Spot. And I remember telling Howard wait for it. And around I think maybe 1:00 PM, 2:00 PM in the afternoon, it really started picking up TMZ picked it up.
[00:13:18] We started seeing some influencers tweeting about it that had a lot of followers, so it started getting traction on social. And then, you know what happened? With a stunt, if you’re successful, is that people start writing stories about the stories. So you stop having to pitch it and send it to people.
[00:13:33] They just start seeing it and writing about what they’re seeing. And then, people start riffing on it, meaning it, and it gets a life of its own. And by the afternoon of the day that we launched it, that was happening. So that the next day was national brownie day and it was running. One of the funniest things was the first person I pitched it to was.
[00:13:53] At USA today who covers a lot of the national holidays. And she said, Brownie day just never gets a lot of traction for us. I’m probably gonna [00:14:00] pass on this, but send it to me anyway. So I did and they didn’t write about it and tell it went viral and then they wrote about it. So they initially passed, but then once it became, everywhere in interesting, then they decided to write about it.
[00:14:13] And USA today is probably the most mainstream mom and pop publication that you’re going to get. So to have a pot brownie on the cover, of that lifestyle section, Yeah, that’s
[00:14:24] Bryan Fields: super satisfying.
[00:14:25] Lisa Weser: Yeah. That’s when, it’s a,
[00:14:26] Bryan Fields: it’s a huge achievement for the industry as a whole though, right? Like you’re not just fighting in an individual battle.
[00:14:32] You’re fighting also the stigma battle of cannabis and kind of parlaying that together. So that’s a huge achievement for the industry, especially for Canada cannabis.
[00:14:41] Lisa Weser: Yeah. And I think that’s what everybody in the industry is trying to do is to mainstream and normalize this thing. That was goal a, our second goal was just to help put Mary med on the map, the, our tagline it’s actually that we put brands on the map, we really like to work with emerging brands that people maybe haven’t heard of, or don’t know a lot about yet. We do work with some really big [00:15:00] names but we work with a lot of smaller names and Marion bed is a smaller MSO that is doing everything right. That is really awesome. It writing kind of a star ship upright now.
[00:15:09] But that was really a moment that I think helped them get a lot of media attention not just amongst press and consumers, but also amongst the analysts and investors and, potential retail. So created a lot of excitement and I think business traction for them above and beyond. It’s good for the industry, but it’s also good for it’s, it ultimately is about a lot more than just one good PR stunt.
[00:15:33] I think that it can deliver business dividend. And it even bumped the stock price for, it actually stayed up, but it really bumped it for about a week. It really did. It really did deliver for a $3,000 investment.
[00:15:44] Bryan Fields: I was literally just going to say that.
[00:15:49] Now I want to
[00:15:50] Lisa Weser: make sure people know it normally can cost more than 3000.
[00:15:53] Kellan Finney: I was going to ask a question about that. Has it been even more satisfying being able to utilize all these skillsets that you [00:16:00] generated working on kind of a bigger brand like Budweiser and then coming into cannabis, you mentioned like the first idea was going to be six figures, which probably is not a big deal in the Budweiser world, but in the cannabis world, it’s that’s not even a possibility.
[00:16:13] So has it been super satisfying, being able to. Utilize all these skills and then having to work within new boundaries, if you will, from like a creative perspective.
[00:16:24] Lisa Weser: It has, I think it was initially frustrating getting into the cannabis industry because I am an ideas person at Budweiser.
[00:16:31] They really pushed us to constantly be pushing that envelope and bringing ideas. We did things like send Budweiser to, Mars, and we did crazy campaigns that were designed to keep people talking about 150 year old, declining brand, which is a challenge. So I’m initially getting into the industry.
[00:16:48] We would have great ideas and bring them to clients. And if that still happens that they just can’t afford to do them, or they just don’t have the infrastructure. And just the human resources to help get some things like this [00:17:00] done. Even if they love the idea. And that happens again and again. So absolutely, last year I think.
[00:17:05] We really started to get traction working with canopy growth because we were able to launch Martha Stewart CBD. And that was really, we started to work, with some bigger celebrity names in cannabis. I know, there’s a lot more mainstream celebrities that are now getting behind brands, developing their own brands.
[00:17:21] And that was a real moment to do something big and do something mainstream. But we were working with an ALA celebrity and we had, a much larger budget on that project. So even though success is never guaranteed, we knew we had a formula. There was no question that was going to be successful.
[00:17:35] It is, I think in general what’s been fun about cannabis is that, even at this point in my career, 30 years in to constantly have to like, Solve problems and figure out how to do things faster and cheaper. And, with a small team is invigorating. It’s like a Wordle.
[00:17:51] It keeps your brain sharp. I don’t know, time for word all because I’m doing this. So yeah.
[00:17:57] Bryan Fields: Have you found since you’ve been in the cannabis industry, [00:18:00] the communication with reporters has been less education and more about pitching the stories or are you still focusing more on the education and communicating to them some of the benefits of the products and less about the stigma.
[00:18:09] Can you share more about.
[00:18:10] Lisa Weser: It depends on what the product is. There’s always a certain level of education, but at this point, most of the major publications have at least one reporter who is dedicated to this beat. Even the wall street journal, granted they’re sharing it.
[00:18:23] Like beer or vapes or cigarettes. But nonetheless, there are people that are dedicated to the segment and they do understand it. And that is really helpful. I think what’s more important in PR across the board in marketing is you have to communicate relevance. So it’s not just product communication, but like, why the hell should they care?
[00:18:44] And why do they need to write this story versus the other 89 stories? Somebody emailed them in. Our right. So it’s really about building relationships with the press and being able to consistently bring them things that are relevant to understand what they write about and what they don’t write [00:19:00] about.
[00:19:00] So that you’re, you demonstrate that you understand their job and their beat and what they cover. And and yeah, that said there are some things like, rare animals. You fit come out. CBN for example being something newer that, Brad has required more education.
[00:19:15] I think we’re starting to see ourselves getting past the here’s what THC is versus here’s what CBD is. We were definitely doing that at the beginning, that is starting to change. There’s a really Nick a mix, but ultimately it comes down to relevance and whatever you’re doing, whether it’s for that paper or.
[00:19:32] You have to make it relevant for people. And that’s where ideas like the brownie, really can be successful because, you’re giving them something that they know they’re going to get clicks on, that they know is going to perform. You want to help them be successful and giving them a story that you know is going to perform for them.
[00:19:50] Bryan Fields: Queen of beers, to cannabis publicist. I love the tagline. Do you see the two industries merging as the future kind of moves in that.
[00:19:58] Lisa Weser: Oh, yeah. They already [00:20:00] are. I think I said upfront that when constellation started moving in on CA on cannabis that got interesting, but today, I recently spoke at a cannabis conference and, one of the, one of the biggest players SAB, Miller, cores, they now have very well, they have, a lot of development.
[00:20:18] They work with trust beverages, so they have a lot of. Development going on in this industry, my former boss, who was, who, the CMO that hired me at Budweiser just moved over to Pabst and they have perhaps labs in California, which is dedicated to THC beverages. They’re real. Tilray has a partner.
[00:20:36] With with AB InBev that they called fluent w where they’re developing beverages. So at this point, there’s a ton of that going on. At the macro level, as well as there’s been a lot of really exciting startups, like can or recess that have, co come up very quickly and gained a lot of distribution.
[00:20:54] The other thing I’ll say is that what I’m seeing a lot of. These beverages, especially [00:21:00] CBD beverages are starting to really being on beer distributors as their route to market. Perfect example, canopy growth. We launched their first CBD beverage in the U S called Quatro through a partnership with Southern Glazer’s wine and spirits which is the biggest wine and spirit distributor in the country owned by or.
[00:21:19] Their partner is constellation brands, the biggest alcohol, one of the biggest alcohol companies. So the same company that is, distributing your whiskey and your vodka is now distributing your CBD beverages. And those distributors are actually really interested in learning more about the segments.
[00:21:36] I actually was just invited by some beer distributors to come and talk to them about CBD beverages because they want to learn more. I think that they see. That there’s money to be made. This was the same way that energy drinks first rolled out was through beer distributors. And now, beverages like monster, have been such a share that way.
[00:21:53] So it’s coming together, not just, not just from a brand perspective, but just in terms of a distribution model. And I think that’s [00:22:00] going to be really interesting, especially when we hit federal permissability someday and you start to see THC sold in an alcohol store, and that will happen.
[00:22:09] Kellan Finney: You think that they’re going to merge.
[00:22:10] And so there’s going to be like THC alcoholic beverages from infusion standpoint, or do you think they’ll always just run parallel to.
[00:22:18] Lisa Weser: I think it’s going to, I think it’s going to be a long time if ever before those merged they’re just, I think that would be like the last line to cross is where, you have them, you have an alcoholic beverage.
[00:22:29] That’s also infused with THC and frankly, that could get a little dangerous.
[00:22:37] Bryan Fields: But
[00:22:38] Lisa Weser: I do think you’re going to see them side by side on the shelves. Absolutely. And that THC beverages, I think that they have the potential to overtake alcohol beverages being one of the biggest sites. Some segments it’s growing right now is non-alcohol. Alcohol. So you’re starting to see a lot of zero alcohol.
[00:22:57] I Oh, doulas was the only thing that exists when I was coming up. And now there [00:23:00] are so many, no alcohol versions of what would normally be a cocktail or a beer spirit. So I think people are really starting to move into this space where they’re less interested in alcohol, but they do. The industry calls, mood, modulation, right?
[00:23:14] Being able to control how they feel. And I think you can really dial that in with cannabis, whether it’s CBD, THC, et cetera. Then you can with alcohol and it can get a lot more nuanced and that science is still early. I think it’s going to continue to evolve and you don’t have the negative drawbacks that you have with alcohol around.
[00:23:33] Depends. How you feel about addiction and cannabis? I don’t believe cannabis is addictive, but anything can be from a habit, but I think that it’s a lot less dangerous than alcohol can be and certainly better for your body. Then alcohol can be for most people. Guys.
[00:23:46] Bryan Fields: Yeah, where we’re in alignment with that we are extremely bullish on the beverage market and think it is still being like, slept on as the fact of what we’ve seen with the seltzer market and how that’s just, I would say exploded might be understating how quickly [00:24:00] it’s risen its popularity.
[00:24:01] So Lisa, what’s the biggest difference you’ve found between messaging between the two different candidates.
[00:24:06] Lisa Weser: Messaging could be your versus messaging cannabis, correct. It’s unfair. But Everybody accepts alcohol marketing, and cannabis marketing still remains. So taboo. A perfect example of this is when we applied for the Guinness book of world records with the brownie we got back that said that they no longer accept any admissions of products that are tied to cannabis.
[00:24:26] A federally illegal adult use drug. And we were like, but it’s the Guinness world record. From Guinness beer and adult use about rich, right? So there’s definitely this hypocrisy around this category where, marketing alcohol is, acceptable and even promoted. You’ll see names all day of, wine moms and red mouth and, and day drinking, but, cannabis.
[00:24:52] For any adults people don’t want to let their boss know that they use cannabis or their kids know that they use cannabis. Whereas you would have a [00:25:00] glass of wine, in front of your boss or your children at an, at an event anytime. So it’s that natural hypocrisy and the tabbing nature of it that I think is still gonna take a long time to over.
[00:25:12] But that’s where, things like the brownie that are done in a lighthearted humorous way. And that also, get the today show where my mom is going to hit. See it, hit the late night, where people are going to see it starts to, I think slowly make a difference in the public consciousness.
[00:25:27] And that’s already happening. When you look at the acceptance rates of America, on both sides. The aisle know the majority of Americans are comfortable with cannabis, approve it. For adult use want to see it legalized or at least don’t care anymore, whether or not it is and also see the economic benefits as well as the, the wellness benefits.
[00:25:46] So I think that,
[00:25:48] Bryan Fields: yeah, and I think it’s really well said, because as you perfectly stated, people see alcohol commercial, the time they don’t blink twice, they don’t assume that Kellen’s sitting in. By his computer drinking all day. But when you tell [00:26:00] someone else that you consume cannabis, their immediate assumption is, or like I forgot what the politician was, where he asked the reporter, are you high now?
[00:26:07] And it’s just, it just shows that we’re still so far away. So I guess the question for you is given your experience and the importance of Superbowl from a marketing perspective, when will cannabis companies have the allowance to do that type of messaging? And is there hope in the near future that cannabis can have that public statement where we can start removing this.
[00:26:26] Lisa Weser: I tell you whenever the first CannabisSuperbowl ad comes out, I sure as hell hope that I’m the one that’s working on it. If it doesn’t happen, it will be because ABI does such a good job of blocking out all competition including other beers that I think. I see it, it’s going to be when there is an cannabis beverage from one of those big existing advertisers, I’ve worked with Pepsi.
[00:26:49] Obviously with Budweiser these are all brands that, on some level have their. Fingers or at least their debt, their R&D involved in cannabis. And so I [00:27:00] think what you’re going to see is probably CBD beverages first that will come out from, from the Pepsi’s and the AB InBev and the Miller Coorsof the world getting the first super bowl ads.
[00:27:11] And that’s going to be, a big step in mainstreaming. In the meantime, one of the main things that you learn early in the alcohol industry, after the days of Joe camel the alcohol industry was very smart in creating their own marketing regulations to avoid the government, regulating them.
[00:27:28] So they created some pretty clear regulations around what is and is not allow. In alcohol marketing that the entire industry, self polices and adheres to things like you can’t use Santa Claus, you can’t use cartoons. You can’t show alcohol depicted, people drinking in water or in the car, even if it’s parked, et cetera.
[00:27:49] That doesn’t really exist in cannabis yet, but we are starting to see organizations like Cresco who are starting to put out their own marketing regulations. And so I think. There [00:28:00] are some things that cannabis can learn from alcohol and tobacco for that matter to help accelerate this process by just like sticking to the rules from the get-go going to market in the right way from the get-go and self policing so that they can, grow brands in the right way.
[00:28:16] And they’re not going to have some of those setbacks that the other adult use industries have
[00:28:20] Bryan Fields: experienced no more of those candy cigarettes anymore.
[00:28:25] Lisa Weser: I had those in my time
[00:28:27] Bryan Fields: count. Do you agree with that from an alcohol standpoint? Yeah, I think it’s needed,
[00:28:31] Kellan Finney: honestly, from a cannabis perspective. I think it’s the only way that we’re going to be able to have like legitimate advertising opportunities is if we’re able to.
[00:28:41] Put rules together and approach like Googles and Facebooks and all these normal advertising outlets. With a pre-established set of rules, I think is going to help the conversation. You know what I mean? It can’t hurt.
[00:28:54] Bryan Fields: Yeah. I think if
[00:28:55] Lisa Weser: anything, cannabis is going to have to play a cleaner game than anybody else.
[00:28:58] Just because we, it’s [00:29:00] already such a taboo for the reasons we’ve talked about. There’s already so much topography that there’s less room for error. So we need to approach it that way from the get go. And there’s definitely been some bad actors in the space, there’s.
[00:29:12] Skittles, Skittles looking products that have come out and, some other things that are riding that line. But what I’ve seen is a real clap back from the industry of, other actors in the industry shutting that down for the protection of, the greater good, so I think that self policing is already happened.
[00:29:28] Bryan Fields: The one concern that I have. So here in the east coast is that we’re just unfamiliar with some of these like well-established brands. So sometimes I see friends would send me a photo of some of these underground products and they say, look, how cool this is. I can get it. And it’s no, someone didn’t buy that illegal dispensary.
[00:29:42] And here are the reasons why, and they’re like, oh, I didn’t know that. In the other way that goes, he sent it to a friend or someone else’s parent or that a child had set. And now you’ve like you were saying we’re fighting uphill. So behind and we already feel like we have two hands tied behind.
[00:29:54] It’s going to be really challenging. And I’m fearful that if we don’t do something quicker from a messaging standpoint, that [00:30:00] more bad actors could continue to infiltrate the industry.
[00:30:04] Lisa Weser: Yeah, no, you’re right. You’re right. But what I am seeing is that there are a lot more there are a lot more marketers from.
[00:30:13] Established CPG and retail moving into the cannabis industry that I think are going to make a really big difference. One of our clients is med men. Their CRO who oversees retail and marketing is from Zappos. One of the most successful DPC. Out there. And, we’re continuing to see cannabis companies attracting, people from fashion, people from Nike, people from some of these more established brands. I think, that they like what, even with trailblaze, we, one of the things that we say right off the bat is. From day one, then trying to bring a more sophisticated, disciplined approach to cannabis. But even if you are, even if you are not a big CPG doesn’t mean.
[00:30:51] Try to act like one, even if you don’t have their budgets, if you’re a married man, doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try to market like one. And we really believe that’s possible and [00:31:00] I’m really enjoying, starting to see the caliber of experience and talent in the industry really start to, to lift and change.
[00:31:08] As these businesses get a little more sophisticated,
[00:31:11] Bryan Fields: perfectly set. Influencer partnership. How do you feel about celebrities attaching themselves to cannabis brands?
[00:31:19] Lisa Weser: When it comes to attaching themselves to a cannabis brand that already, that it sounds problematic. And there’s definitely a level of that happens in cannabis and really in every industry always celebrities that are just cruising to take a check.
[00:31:32] And you can smell that a mile away. I think I’ve worked with celebrities like that and it is incredibly painful. You can tell when they, their heart is not in it when they’re just in it for the money and when they don’t really want to do anything. That’s outside of their contract or in their contract for that matter to promote that brand.
[00:31:47] I think that it’s not bad for the industry because look, any level of celebrity, if it’s especially a well-regarded celebrity is going to help bring attention and normalization. But I think what we really want to see [00:32:00] is celebrities that are getting into it for the right reasons that are using these products.
[00:32:04] That it is authentic to their brand and who they are and a natural extension of their brand. So yes, there’s people like Seth Rogen right there who make a lot of sense, but there’s also, people like Martha Stewart who, I had the privilege of working with her over the past two years.
[00:32:20] One of the hardest working women in America, she is in there making those formulations. She tasted every gummy, every CBD, gummy on the market available in critique them to figure out what she wanted hers to taste like. And the texture, the consistency, the flavors, overseeing the packaging every, absolutely every detail.
[00:32:39] And then also, really going above and beyond. To talk about, these products in her interviews, on her social. She does not have to do that. And obviously, really really cares. Does he use CBD herself and with her pets. So when you have a celebrity like that who is really all in, I think that’s very good for the industry and it’s [00:33:00] doing what we really want to see, which is, to bring new people into the industry, stuff’s fantastic, but I don’t know that he’s bringing people into the industry that aren’t already cannabis users.
[00:33:09] I think Martha is bringing people in. Even if just as CBD users, but that can be a gateway to acceptance or to try and other types of products. And she attracts everybody from, 104 to 14, so it’s a pretty broad spectrum. I’m for it. And it definitely, from a PR perspective, look, having a celebrity is always helpful for, getting a little more attention.
[00:33:31] Again, giving reporters a reason.
[00:33:33] Bryan Fields: Yeah. And I think that is so important, especially from a stigma standpoint, martha has her brand and people trust her. So when she is going through that process and she stands behind a product, others lean onto that and they feel good about trying the product because, maybe they wouldn’t try CBD, but if Martha’s name’s attached, then more likely to consider it.
[00:33:49] If they’re a big fan of the loyalty of the product. So a hundred percent agree.
[00:33:53] Lisa Weser: And mark, I think it’s also the level of the unexpected. There are people that you expect to have a cannabis brand and people that you don’t expect. [00:34:00] So again, like you expect Snoop to have one when Martha and Snoop are advertising together, that is unexpected.
[00:34:06] So in those it’s that type of novelty that, to me is always tr gold is what made the brownie successful too is that sense of novelty and unexpectedness? And we’re seeing a lot more of that in cannabis. It’s more people come out of the closet or even become, adopted as new users.
[00:34:22] Bryan Fields: Maybe that’s your Superbowl ad right there. Martha Stewart and Snoop dog, and one boom. That’s the one industry that’s pretty relatable. Come on. Did you have something that you wanted to chime in?
[00:34:33] Kellan Finney: I was just say Martha’s image is so powerful for candidates and changing the stigma. You know what I mean?
[00:34:38] Just what she’s crafted over her career from targeting. That’s soccer, mom, demographic, if you will. I think that’s one of the most important demographics, culturally speaking, from an influence perspective for our changing the stigma. So
[00:34:53] Lisa Weser: that’s also who has the purchasing power.
[00:34:56] Kellan Finney: They are
[00:34:56] Lisa Weser: 100% deciding what’s coming into the house. They [00:35:00] also, when it comes to brand building and word of. Maybe so many of my friends in their thirties and forties come to me and asked me what to buy. Especially if they’re buying cannabis for the first time, they don’t know what to look for in a dispensary.
[00:35:13] They don’t know what CBD brands or formats to try who they should trust. So I think that, that particular demographic does a great job of educating each other and sharing products and. So I think that’s where we’re going to see the most growth in the industry. So that’s any celebrity or product brand that can speak to that demographic, that’s really where it’s at right now.
[00:35:34] Kellan Finney: And I also think that demographic stands to gain or benefit a lot from CBD. Anecdotally, it’s supposed to help with anxiety. I’ve never raised local children, but I imagine. Gotta be pretty stressful and causing side.
[00:35:48] Lisa Weser: Trust me.
[00:35:51] Bryan Fields: You’ve also never been a mom. I’ve never been a mom. I said, don’t
[00:35:57] Lisa Weser: be.[00:36:00]
[00:36:00] That’s the thing is this is also a population that, has been told to drink wine, and to use all it and copy and to use all of these, or, to take, sleeping pills or, all of these different products that they have been marketed that aren’t really working out for them.
[00:36:14] I, myself, in that I didn’t start using cannabis until. In my forties. I had used it obviously in my youth is everybody experiments, but then I hadn’t really had access to it. And I was in the alcohol industry. Had a lot of alcohol around me and in my life, but, didn’t even really consider using cannabis.
[00:36:31] And so when I started to get into the industry and educate myself, I actually use cannabis almost every day now in, in different ways. And especially when it comes to micro-dosing. And that’s I think what’s so interesting about this category. It’s not very often that you see a completely new segment come out of nowhere.
[00:36:46] And a segment that, people can adopt for the first time we look in beer, if we did not capture people when they were 21, it was all about like capturing people, right when they enter the category. So to have something like this, where you can actually capture people [00:37:00] that aren’t can be heavy users later in life and their thirties, forties, fifties, and beyond is really.
[00:37:06] Yeah.
[00:37:07] Bryan Fields: People walk in dispensary’s and they don’t know what they’re going to buy. Or for me back in the day, I’d walk into a gas station and it would be bud light, right? Like I would walk in and that’s solely what I’m looking to purchase, where people now are still open for kind of manipulation is probably the wrong term to use, but guidance towards a specific brand.
[00:37:21] And it takes, key assets like yourself to help communicate the messages towards those targeted demographics to connect with those people. Yeah.
[00:37:28] Lisa Weser: And that’s why PR I think is so important because bud light can buy ads and surround you with bud light, right? Like they, can put it on TV.
[00:37:36] They can put it on billboards, they can send it to your phone. So like you’re never going to not be getting those messages. Cannabis can not do any of that. And in some states it’s incredibly restrictive. So cannabis has, and they can’t even target a Facebook ad that you write or Instagram.
[00:37:51] You have to get really creative in cannabis. And that is why I think there’s been such a huge opportunity for PR in the normal CPG marketing world, [00:38:00] PR is always a little bit of the redheaded stepchild with the slightly smaller budget, right? Like the big budget goes to the social media team, the digital team that’s making all of those buys for the people that are, financing all of the Superbowl ads in cannabis and can’t do any of that.
[00:38:14] So it really. Rely on the news media and and on influencers and on, some of those more subtle earned tactics where you have a lot less control and you need people that know what they’re doing.
[00:38:26] Bryan Fields: Do you think that it’s more of a forgotten one because brands can’t correlate success when they work with PR agencies or you think it’s just a misunderstanding of what actually is going on behind the scenes?
[00:38:35] Lisa Weser: I think it’s all of it. I don’t think people completely understand what PR is. I think they can definitely, I think they all want it, but they don’t necessarily understand it. They absolutely underestimate it. And they often underfunded. Even though the brownie tactic cost $3,000.
[00:38:53] My team costs more than that, right? There’s manpower behind that. You do have to, I think really invest in having [00:39:00] a strong PR partner and PR to me, the biggest thing that I learned at Budweiser is that PR is always on a lot of people will contact us and say, I’m launching a brand.
[00:39:11] I like, they basically want to hire us for 30 days. They’re like, I want to get some slides on my investor deck, I want that Ford logo and. And we don’t do that. Like we really only work on a retainer basis with clients year round. You should be telling your story all the time. You constantly have to find new ways to talk about your brand, bring your brand to culture.
[00:39:32] And that’s where that cultural calendar I keep referencing comes, comes up because, there’s more than just four 20, there’s times all around the year, when you can be talking about your brand in different ways or the people at your company telling your founder’s story.
[00:39:45] And I call that always on. So that’s how we like to work with people. And people that will really invest in that and understand that PR is a critical part of their entire marketing and brand building machine. And it does not sleep.
[00:39:58] Bryan Fields: Lisa, since you’ve been in the [00:40:00] cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconception?
[00:40:02] Lisa Weser: About cannabis in about cannabinoids. I think I think that people don’t think that all they do is get you high. So that is what’s interesting about cannabis is that in the alcohol industry, alcohol is recreational, right? That’s why people use it, in cannabis, there is, there are medical people and there’s recreational people and there’s a lot of people that are both right.
[00:40:23] That are hybrid. So I think, people think about using cannabis to get high. I’ve mentioned. I use cannabis almost every day. I’m almost never high. I’m a huge fan of a two and a half milligram mints. I use both CBD and THC for a variety of things. Chronic pain, sleep, anxiety, or just recreational purposes instead of having a glass of Warrington unwind.
[00:40:45] So there’s a lot of different ways that you can use cannaboid at different levels to control all types of different. Physical and mental symptoms and states. And I don’t think people fully comprehend that. I did not know that we all had an endocannabinoid system [00:41:00] in our bodies and that, that is you can target with all of these different products to have different effects.
[00:41:06] And I think what really sold me when I first got into the industry, I have, some conditions that I have chronic pain and I was taking, to add. Twice a day. And just by taking, CBD countries under the tongue every day and two weeks I was off Advil, which was mind blowing to me.
[00:41:22] And that was just for some pretty minor symptoms. So that really showed me like, look like you don’t have to be a cancer patient to need. To need cannabis. There’s all kinds of different ways that you can use it to enhance the life, your creativity control pain levels, anxiety levels, get off all kinds of meds, which look, I’m not a doctor.
[00:41:41] You can’t make claims. You have to figure out what works for yourself. But, there’s not a lot of cannabis can’t do in my opinion. And I don’t think people fully comprehend that.
[00:41:51] Bryan Fields: Well said before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, [00:42:00] what would.
[00:42:00] Lisa Weser: I think the first thing would be just like to not be afraid to take the leap into something new for myself and my entire career, I’ve always tried to be on the leading edge and get into things. I didn’t totally understand. I started in tech, I ended up launching the first ever smartphone when nobody ever knew what a smartphone was and it turned out to be the iPhone.
[00:42:21] When social media first launched and people didn’t understand that. And I was trying to explain to clients what is a tweet? What is Twitter, or Pinterest, people didn’t totally understand it, trying to get in there and figure out what, What these new industries are, what these new technologies are and figure out how they’re going to apply to your brand is really important.
[00:42:39] And cannabis was the same way is knowing that it was going to become this big, huge industry that was going to affect. All of these different, functions in society ultimately, but I didn’t exactly know how, but just, taking that leap of faith and getting into it, I never really had regrets about doing that.
[00:42:55] So I think that’s been one of the biggest lessons for me is just to go for it, when you’ve got something that you’re really [00:43:00] passionate about. And I think the other thing would just be like that you’re never too old to try something new or learn something new. Like I said, okay. I see people get into cannabis, whether it’s a career or whether it’s just using it for the first time in their thirties, forties, fifties, seeing my parents, who are boomers and getting interested in it again, after, a 40 year break, from the sixties right.
[00:43:23] Or whatever. So yeah, I think it’s really about, you’re never too old.
[00:43:27] Bryan Fields: I love it. Hi, Lisa prediction. This’ll be a two-parter I’m going to have to add the second part. Cause I need to know this answer. When will we see another brand? Try and replicate the similar stunt that Mary med put on second part.
[00:43:43] What year will we first see a cannabis in the soup bowl? Cannabis-based commercial in the super.
[00:43:51] Lisa Weser: Okay. So I’ve already had people come to me and try to replicate the brownie. I
[00:43:55] Bryan Fields: was assuming
[00:43:56] Lisa Weser: that other clients that have wanted to do something similar. So I think it will [00:44:00] probably happen within 90 days in some capacity.
[00:44:03] But I think it’s less about trying to replicate the brownie itself than the idea of the brownie and buy it really captured attention in terms of the Superbowl and when we’re going to see cannabis in the Superbowl. Honestly I think that’s probably still a good four or five years away, not just because of where cannabis is, but just, I happen to know a lot about the behind the doors.
[00:44:25] Deals and how locked up they are. And like I said, I don’t think that’s going to happen until that the Pepsis and the AB InBev that hold those multi-year contracts are ready to bring those products to the market. But what I think you will see is you will and hopefully. Here. Next month, you’ll see, this is that guerrilla marketing that we always saw.
[00:44:46] We always had the Superbowl really locked up at ABMBev where other people couldn’t really advertise. But what we see is competitors buying local ads, or like doing digital stunts, different things to distract and to get their own share of voice, even though they couldn’t buy an ad.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] And sometimes that’s a lot better value, super bowl ad you know, the going rate is three, 4 million, right? There’s definitely ways to do that more cost effectively. So I think we will see that. I hope we see it this year. I’ve certainly been trying to encourage some clients to with my ideas of how to do that.
[00:45:14] But yeah, I don’t think we’ll see the actual ad for a good three to five
[00:45:18] Bryan Fields: Marketing world within another. Yeah. So counting your predictions. I think
[00:45:23] Kellan Finney: that we’ll see another stunt for sure. I don’t know if it’s going to be with food though. I think maybe someone might get creative with a beverage or kind of a different form factor.
[00:45:32] You know what I mean? As far as the super bowl, My guess, is that like a legitimate Superbowl commercial is not going to air until probably the 2030s. But I do think that you’re going to see some sort of stunt, right? Like even in, in Colorado, there’s I think native roots or something.
[00:45:49] Tried to buy the name of the stadium. So like I could like it’s in the Superbowls in at Sophie stadium this year in California. I wouldn’t be shocked if there was like some sort of stunt [00:46:00] where someone put up a big banner or some sort of like random marketing from that perspective occurred.
[00:46:06] Someone runs on the field with a cannabis branded poster or something. I could see something like that happening, but I don’t think like legitimate commercial in the super bowl for college.
[00:46:15] Lisa Weser: Brian, what? Say what? I got the idea. I just haven’t been able to get a client
[00:46:23] eventually I can’t give it away right now.
[00:46:27] Bryan Fields: Like I, I’ve tried to unpack like the viral marketing effort and I’ve shared ideas on that. And I just don’t think people realize how hard that is. And I can’t even imagine the conversations you’re having Lisa, where people come and he’s can’t you just replicate this idea again?
[00:46:40] Yeah. If it was only that easy, then sure. You would have done this a million times by now. But like even me who studied marketing my whole life, I’ve tried to unpack. Okay. I understand why the brownie went viral, but what other product categories could do that? And it’s really hard to come up with that.
[00:46:53] So I can’t even imagine how I’m sure. We’ll see that a bunch of times we’ve seen the Cheeba chews, try it with their truck that [00:47:00] obviously didn’t work out. I didn’t even see it. It’s disappointing from their standpoint, when probably already happened and we might’ve missed it.
[00:47:07] It wouldn’t surprise me if someone tried to piggyback off that, like you were saying, have a life of its own and try to double down on that. So I would say probably ASAP, if not already. And then in regards to Superman, Obviously it’s hard since you’re way more plugged in than we are and knowing the timeframes and how that works.
[00:47:22] But I would’ve liked to guess three years is what I was hoping for. And my thought behind that is once New York comes online, I think a lot of people will start to accept it more from let’s say, United States standpoint. And then I think the expectation is okay. The stigma’s slowly started to get reduced and because of.
[00:47:37] People are wanting to expect that. And then I wonder if one of these larger MSOC maybe partners with someone and then challenges in, or if we see a big purchase by beverage company with a cannabis company, and that’s the messaging that goes on because it’s a pretty good platform to announce this is our new partnership,
[00:47:53] Lisa Weser: What’s unfortunate.
[00:47:53] Cause I, I speak with a lot of the TV networks and they all have these advisory boards, these standard boards [00:48:00] and the bottom line is right now, they will not permit. Cannabis advertising and tell it’s federally illegal. It’s like banks, right? And that’s, perfect example. We worked with Martha Stewart CBD on launching that she has a regular segment on CBS this morning and today’s show and they would not allow us to do a segment on her product.
[00:48:20] Even though they were just DVD, because of that reason. And and it wasn’t even THC. So that is the, I think there’s a lot of these old school policies that are just written in, and there’s like the switch that like until it’s federally illegal and that’s affecting everything and it’s affecting advertising.
[00:48:35] So I really think that’s going to have to be the lever, unfortunately, before we can actually get. TV advertising, not just in the Superbowl, but anywhere, but that said just the nature of the way that those types of advertising deals get locked up. It is probably, as you said, can have to come, from one of, one of
[00:48:52] Bryan Fields: the big dogs, maybe someone just comes a little more rebellious, a brand that maybe crosses a line a little more decides, what.
[00:48:59] We’re [00:49:00] just going to do a surprise tactic and see, and we’ll deal with the repercussions because platform like that to try to swing for the fences might be the best one to do. So Lisa, for our listeners, they want to get in touch. They want to learn more and they want to ask you to help them go viral.
[00:49:12] Where do they get?
[00:49:13] Lisa Weser: Our website, a company’s trailblazer website is trailblazer.co C O and they can email me [email protected]. And we would love to talk to them when they are ready to invest and ready to go big and ready to be always on. That’s the right time to bring us on.
[00:49:31] Bryan Fields: Awesome. Thanks so much for your time, Lisa. You bet. [00:49:33] Lisa Weser: Thanks for having me on.
Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
Today we are talking about plant-based medicine for the furry members of your family! Hosts Bryan and Kellan sit down with VETCBD founder, Dr. Tim Shu to dive into the world of CBD for pets. Stream this episode to learn more about Veterinarian CBD Animal vs human cannabis response Higher quality of life for animals Endocannabinoid System Dr. Tim Shu is the founder and chief executive officer of VETCBD. As chief executive officer, Dr. Shu manages direction and strategy at VETCBD and oversees research and development, marketing, sales, and support. Listen to The Dime podcast to learn about the exploding cannabis industry from the ones building it. Join us as we uncover the real How and Why across every topic
[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangent.
[00:00:11] What’s up guys. Welcome back to the episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is my right-hand man Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest, Dr. Tim Shu, CEO, and founder of vet CBD factor.
[00:00:22] Shoot, thanks for taking the time. How you doing today?
[00:00:25] Dr, Tim Shu: Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I’m doing very well. Thank you, Kellan. How you doing?
[00:00:29] Kellan Finney: I’m doing really well. It’s nice to have another west coaster on the podcast, and I’m really excited to talk about cannabinoids and. Yeah.
[00:00:36] Bryan Fields: And you see how I quickly tried to get past that, but yes, he’s on the west coast, so we’ll put another one in the west coast.
[00:00:42] So Dr. Shu for our listeners that are unfamiliar with you, can you give a little bit about a brief background about you and how you got into the
[00:00:48] Dr, Tim Shu: cannabis? Yeah, sure. So I’m a veterinarian practice in general emergency critical care medicine. And you know, for me, the, the way that I’ve approached cannabis and cannabinoid therapeutics [00:01:00] is that if there is value in cannabis, then we really owe it to our patients, our clients, to be able to.
[00:01:05] Really find out what that value is, right. Even if there is no value, then we’ve got to be able to say, okay, you know, we’ve done our due diligence. We’ve looked at it. And we’ve either found that there is value or there isn’t value, but it turns out there is massive value in cannabinoid therapeutics and understanding the endocannabinoid system.
[00:01:22] Now, one of the big problems is that we’re, we’re not educating. Not only the clients that benefit the most from it, but we’re not educating our healthcare professionals about it. And so we’re really doing a huge disservice to the medical community and its clients and patients. And so for me, that’s how I got into the cannabis industry in 2015.
[00:01:41] So take
[00:01:42] Bryan Fields: us through vet CBD, the origin of that, how that came about and kind of what led you to wanting to dive
[00:01:48] Dr, Tim Shu: into this path. Yeah. So, you know, I hadn’t heard about how cannabis. Could be beneficial for humans. And for me, it was always the question of, okay, if cannabis can be [00:02:00] beneficial for humans, are we able to make it beneficial for animals as well?
[00:02:03] Right. Because most people, when they think about cannabis, they think about the intoxicating aspects of it. Right. They think about the THC. They think about people getting high and things like that. But what they, at least back then, you know, what people didn’t realize was that cannabis is not just THC.
[00:02:18] Cannabis is CBD as well. You know, it’s also CBC CBG, et cetera, et cetera. But there are ways that we can utilize it to be able to make it so that it’s not intoxicating for animals. So it doesn’t get them high, but there is still able to get the medical benefits. I think that’s
[00:02:35] Bryan Fields: really well said. And I want to kind of dive into more of those specifics.
[00:02:38] So some of the products you have you listed on your website, you talked about the ratios and the tend to ones. Now, my question to you before we kind of dive into some of the specifics are, are pet CBD products similar in their formulations as the human CBD products,
[00:02:51] Dr, Tim Shu: there are different in the, in the formulation.
[00:02:53] You know, first is the ingredient Stripe. There are ingredients out there that are [00:03:00] perfectly fine for people to ingest, but can actually be toxic to them. And so the one that everyone knows is chocolate, right? You, you never give your dogs chocolate. But other things like raisins, for example, raisins or grapes, people don’t realize that you’re not supposed to give your dogs raisins or grapes, right.
[00:03:16] Because it could cause kidney damage, but then there’s also another one called xylitol, which is a sweetener that’s actually found in. Tons of different human products, pretty much most of the chewing gums out there that you’ll find have, Zatanna but even things like toothpaste can have xylitol in it inside.
[00:03:32] It’s all can actually be very toxic for dogs and you never want them to get into anything that contains xylitol. So, you know, first and foremost is the ingredients and make sure, making sure that the ingredients are safe for the animals, but also dosing matters. Right. You know, the 160 pound person is going to.
[00:03:48] Probably take a different dose than a 10 pound dog. So that’s the other big thing that can be very different when it comes to humans and animals. And then also, you know, the, the formulation in terms of how [00:04:00] you’re utilizing THC, for example, can also be different. What’s important to understand is that THC can actually be effectively utilized in animals, but they can’t be more sensitive to it.
[00:04:11] And so it needs to be dosed and formulated properly. Is
[00:04:14] Bryan Fields: the dosing based on the weight of the animal in most regards or is there other factors outside of the way to incorporate in like breed
[00:04:21] Dr, Tim Shu: dosing based on weight is one thing. Now, whether there are breed differences. I don’t think anyone really knows that quite yet.
[00:04:31] There are certainly could be, you know, we know that in terms of veterinary medicine, there are specific breeds that may have a different metabolic issues that are attached to that specific. Now, what we do see is that there are a lot of individual variations in terms of metabolism and the endocannabinoid system.
[00:04:51] And we call this pharmacol kinetics. And so what that means is you can have two dogs that are the same, same way. Let’s say that 50 pounds and you give them the [00:05:00] exact same amount of CBD. Let’s say you give them 10 milligrams of CBD and one absorbs it a lot more than the other one. And another one may metabolize it a lot more quickly than another one does.
[00:05:10] This is just individual pharmacokinetics. And that’s, what’s really fascinating is that we do see variations in that. And so, you know, the whole thing about how to properly administrate for animals is based off of specific individuals, just like it is for humans, right? So the general mantra of go low, start slow by starting at a lower amount and then gradually increasing it to the optimal effect, applies to animals as.
[00:05:36] And dive in
[00:05:36] Bryan Fields: there. What’s your thoughts on that? My thoughts are
[00:05:39] Kellan Finney: in relation to why I would be wanting to administer a cannabinoid to my right. I mean, I have a dog and like the weight factor I’ve, I’ve explored CBD products in the past as well for one of my, my parents actually having the older and older dog that was struggling with like joint pain, which I thought might kind of increase its enjoyment [00:06:00] of life.
[00:06:01] And the, the weight thing was one item that the brand I was looking at it, they kind of divided it into like, okay, here’s a dosage for dogs that are zero 30 pounds, 30 to 60, 60, and up kind of the situation. Right. And my mind just kept going back to why, what, where are those dosages? Tied to, from a pharmacokinetic standpoint, I mean, is this something Dr.
[00:06:25] Shoe that we’re basing off of like previous studies, can you kind of elaborate on where some of those the dosage came came from? Not only because it’s the mass of the animal, right? How much it weighs, but the amount of CBD that you’re administrating do, do we know where those kind of dosage came from is some studies or, or is it just kind of a.
[00:06:45] Lower lower concentrations and work from there. She kind of walk us through how that
[00:06:50] came
[00:06:50] Bryan Fields: to be.
[00:06:51] Dr, Tim Shu: It’s actually a really interesting question. So for us, it’s it’s what we experimented with and, and found to be a good starting [00:07:00] point. So we have starting point recommendations and then how to increase it from there.
[00:07:05] Now what’s interesting is that some of the published studies out there, some of the clinical trials out there actually use much, much higher amounts than what we use. Now. There was another interesting study that came out of Colorado state university that was looking at. Using CBD in arthritic dogs, they did find that it was beneficial for these dogs.
[00:07:25] But the interesting thing that they found was that the dose at which was, which it was effective, was all over the. So I think you had as, as little as something like 0.3 milligrams per kilogram, going up all the way to like 4.1 milligram per kilogram. So like over a 10 times difference. Right. And so that’s something that’s really interesting.
[00:07:44] And that just goes to show you that it matters. The, the individual matters. Another thing that’s really interesting, especially on the hemp side of things is that there is no. Regulation in regards to the testing, the content of cannabinoids in our product. [00:08:00] So, you know, there’s time and time. There’s been multiple studies out there that have looked and said that you know, based off of, you know, testing, you know, 30 or 50 over the counter hemp CBD products, a number of them don’t actually.
[00:08:13] Sit within that 90 to 110% of the label claim. So, you know, for example, if something says it has a hundred milligrams of CBD in it in order to be accurate, it has to fall within 90 to a hundred, 10%. So 90 to 110 milligrams of CBD. But time and time again, multiple studies have shown that a lot of products out there don’t actually contain that 90 to 110%.
[00:08:38] Right. And some of them actually don’t contain any CBD. So that’s the problem is, you know, people are using these products sometimes and finding out that, you know, they’re not seeing any benefits, but the issue could be that they’re actually not getting what they’re painful. So what
[00:08:55] Bryan Fields: would you suggest to someone that comes to you and says, Hey, I bought this product.
[00:08:59] It didn’t [00:09:00] work for my dog. Would you recommend trying different products? We dramatic recommend staying with the same product three times. The point you brought up is, is a really important one. One that we’ve heard time and time again, is that people have this issue with their dog. They’re looking for something to help their dog, and then they have this different experience and it could be off putting for them where they, they take a different approach to go with a different style product.
[00:09:21] And it could be the wrong choice just based on what you said. So what would you suggest.
[00:09:25] Dr, Tim Shu: Well first, what I would say is Luke your veterinarian, right? Yeah. I understand that years ago, I’ve always told people this right. Talk to your veterinarian first and foremost, make sure they’re in that involved in that conversation.
[00:09:37] And you know, for a long time you know, people come back to me and say, I’ve tried talking to my veterinarian. They refuse to talk to me about it or they don’t know how to answer my questions. They don’t, they’re not educated about it, but slowly over time, we’ve seen that change and that’s, that’s awesome.
[00:09:54] Right. That’s progress. And we are starting to see more and more veterinarians feel comfortable being involved in that [00:10:00] conversation. So first and foremost, talk to your veterinarian about it, right? Because you want to make sure that whatever you’re, you’re trying to address can be adequately addressed by cannabinoid therapeutics.
[00:10:10] And we are seeing more veterinarians be educated about it. We do do a lot of presentations for veterinarians about. You know, the, the things that cannabis can be utilized for and how to look for quality and how to guide your clients through this process, to make sure that they’re getting quality products.
[00:10:27] But the other thing is that any, any product that they purchase should have a COA tied to that specific product and that COA should be available on the website. Or if you reach out to the company, they should be able to provide that for you. And a COA is a certificate of analysis. You know, if you really want to get down to it and you can also verify.
[00:10:45] With the lab, that random COA, that the COA is accurate. But you know, the other thing is. Sometimes we see products are made with CBD isolate, and thus far, the evidence shows that the entourage [00:11:00] effect that theory of synergism between multiple components of the cannabis plant does appear to hold true.
[00:11:06] We do have more evidence in favor of the entourage effect than against it. And so if a product is being made with CBD isolate that patient or that client may actually do better with something that’s false.
[00:11:19] Bryan Fields: Just like thinking through that, but I mean, that’s, that’s a great find and I think that’s so important, but then I wonder Dr.
[00:11:25] Shu that puts so much emphasis back on the individual to be educated about the experience, to kind of go through these steps and challenges, which is hard, right? In those moments where your, your animal is suffering and you’re looking for an area and, and reaching in these different approaches. So again, to continue on that, Would you suggest that if your pet has anxiety or is older as arthritis, can they lean on similar products?
[00:11:48] Should they have to look for two different products? What do you suggest there? Can you clarify that question a little bit? Sure. So for example, let’s say you have an older dog who has arthritis. And anxiety can the [00:12:00] same product be used to serve both purposes, or would you suggest looking for an individual product allocated for the arthritis one and a different one for the anxiety?
[00:12:09] One?
[00:12:10] Dr, Tim Shu: It depends on the individual definitely depends on the individual because the, the way that we, we see cannabis is that it’s an additional tool in the toolbox. Right. And it’s not something that. It can be used for anything and everything. Right. Having been in the dispensary space for, for a while, I’ve kind of seen some of the early marketing and you know, I’ve kind of also seen this mentality of plants over pills.
[00:12:38] But, you know, really it’s not, it’s not plants over pills. It’s not pills over plants. It’s, it’s both right. You have to be able to utilize the right tool for the right situation. And in some cases traditional pharmaceuticals are going to work better. In other cases, cannabinoid therapeutics may work.
[00:12:56] And in other cases, a combination of the two [00:13:00] may work best. Right? So it just depends on the individual and their situation.
[00:13:04] Bryan Fields: I have a question. So,
[00:13:05] Kellan Finney: I mean, in terms of the different tools in reference to, to candidates
[00:13:10] Bryan Fields: right now is kind of CBD and THC are the main tools being implement. My experience with THC in dogs is that when a dog eats cannabis, they kind of
[00:13:21] Kellan Finney: have like a little freak out session.
[00:13:22] Right? Like I just remember my one of my really good buddies, his dog in college ate a bunch of cannabis and like, they found it like under a table shaking, like it was urinating uncontrollably and like those kinds of things. So. My question is some of the products out there, therefore dogs include THC.
[00:13:40] What kind of benefit is THC bringing to a dog? And what’s that threshold where they actually have kind of like a serious reaction to it.
[00:13:49] Dr, Tim Shu: Yeah. And a lot of the products out there are full spectrum and any full spectrum product does have a certain amount of THC in it. What’s important to [00:14:00] understand is that.
[00:14:01] THC, the effects of THC are boast dependent. Right. Which is pretty much the case with everything else. And what we see a lot of times with cannabinoids is that they have by phasic properties. Right? So what that means is that you at lower ends, you get a different effect than you may at higher ends for.
[00:14:20] And one of the things that’s really interesting about THC is that at lower doses it’s anxiety, meaning that it can actually help with anxiety at higher doses. It can be anxiety Genet, meaning that it can generate or create anxiety. This has to do with how it works on the different receptors in the different parts of the brain.
[00:14:39] But it’s the same thing with people, right? If, if a person took two and a half milligrams of THC, They may be okay. They may maybe be calm and relaxed right now. If they took 250 milligrams of THC, that’s going to be a different story. So it’s a very similar situation that applies here. Right? It’s really the dose [00:15:00] that makes a difference in what people don’t realize is that this can be applied to so many other things in life, right.
[00:15:05] Taking a daily vitamin that’s great, right. Taking a bottle of daily. Every day, that’s probably a very, very bad idea. Right? And so it’s the same thing with, for example like salt, right? You need salt. It’s an important part of your, your diet in nutrient requirements. But you, if you take in too much salt, that’s unhealthy for you, right?
[00:15:24] That’s not good for you. Same thing with oxygen, you need oxygen to live and survive. But you can’t breathe a hundred percent pure oxygen. Eventually you get oxygen toxicity from that. So, you know, it applies to just about everything in life is finding the right amount. So
[00:15:39] Bryan Fields: we found out through experience that sometimes when you take too much THC, you can have CBD to kind of have that kill switch and that off putting experience and kind of bring you back down.
[00:15:48] Does that work similarly in animals where hypothetically, if a dog. Consume too much THC, which I do have experience with, and it was awful. You can give the dog CBD in order to kind of [00:16:00] help mellow out. Is that.
[00:16:02] Dr, Tim Shu: It’s an interesting question. And I think that that’s, it’s definitely one that’s up for debate.
[00:16:06] There’s evidence that kind of points in either direction. You know, some say that you know, the CBD has to be taken either before or with the THC, but whether or not THC can lessen some of the intoxicating side effects. Of THC. I think that remains to be seen. I, I don’t have any good evidence to say one way or the other right now.
[00:16:29] So continuing
[00:16:30] Bryan Fields: on just amassing for personal experience, hypothetically, if the dog got into, let’s say the leftover bowl, would that be enough THC to possibly cause it one of those higher effects, if it’s a smaller weight dog or does it, it needs to be consumed in a different way outside of let’s say grounded.
[00:16:46] Dr, Tim Shu: So, well, the, the ground of flower that depends, you know, grounded in general flour, you get more of the, the acids. So for example, like THCA, THC is not intoxicating. Now, [00:17:00] if it’s decarboxylated from THCA into THC, that’s a different story. But it just depends, you know? So the, the thing is that when people are making edibles, they tend to put a fairly large amount of THC.
[00:17:12] And so, you know, if, if there’s ever a cause for concern, easiest thing or the safest thing, and the best thing to do would to take your dog to your veterinarian. Right. Because the other thing to consider is what other ingredients could they have? So a lot of times you may have you know, when people are making edibles or mixing anything with like chocolate and butter and things like that, that may cause GI upset or chocolate toxicity in those dogs.
[00:17:38] So, you know, if, if there’s ever a cause for concern from ingestion like that, the best thing is to bring your dog to your veterinarian. Are there
[00:17:46] Bryan Fields: any recent research that you’ve discovered or read about that you’re excited for the pet space, any minor cannabinoids that you’re really excited about to kind of integrate into
[00:17:55] Dr, Tim Shu: the future?
[00:17:56] Yeah. I mean, I think this is something that’s that has a lot of potential, [00:18:00] you know, right now the market is really pushing CBG CBN. And CBC, but the reality what’s interesting is that the research on those molecules is it’s still very early stages. You know, we have preclinical research that’s out there.
[00:18:18] So, you know, looking at. CBG CBC and its effect on maybe mice in rats and, you know, cells that are sitting in test tubes or Petri dishes. But we don’t really have any good clinical trials that are looking at those cannabinoids. And I think that there’s potential there in those cannabinoids. Exactly what we’re not quite sure of.
[00:18:39] We do have some internal research that we’ve done. And so there are some some formulations that we’ve come up that. Actually do seem to be more beneficial in certain cases than just utilizing full spectrum CBD. So we’re pretty excited about that. I
[00:18:53] Kellan Finney: have a question is all a million endocannabinoid systems, almost identical.
[00:18:58] From like [00:19:00] a receptor and metabolic perspective, I guess, for an easier way to phrase it is the CB one receptor and CDT receptor in dogs, the same CB one and CB two receptor that would be in humans from like a structure standpoint as well as then. My followup question would be, is it same for like dogs and cats?
[00:19:18] How much research has been done on understanding the endocannabinoid system in
[00:19:23] Dr, Tim Shu: species outside of humans? Yeah, that’s a great question. And in terms of the endocannabinoid system, speaking of it from an evolutionary perspective, it’s an ancient system, right? It’s been around for millions and millions of years, and that’s why we have it in all vertebrae animals.
[00:19:41] So. Whether it’s you know, mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, they all have an endocannabinoid system. And in fact, some invertebrate animals have endocannabinoid systems as well. So we know from an evolutionary standpoint that this system has been around for a very, very long time. The other thing that we know is that even though it’s similar in terms of its [00:20:00] function in animals, right, it’s its main overarching goal is homeostasis.
[00:20:05] Plays that role in a number of things, mood, appetite, sleep, metabolism, inflammation, reproduction, but we do know that there are species differentiators differences, right? It’s not going to be the same across species. One of the most remarkable things that everybody you know, seems to have heard about is that dogs have a higher concentration of CB one receptors and a portion of the brain called the cerebellum compared to other species that have.
[00:20:32] Now the going back to your CB one, CB two receptor question. We do know that the CB one, CB two receptors across species are similar, but they’re not exactly the same. There are some slight differences between the CB one, CB two receptor in a, in a dog and a human in a mouse and a rat. You said
[00:20:49] Bryan Fields: that dogs have a bigger CB one receptors.
[00:20:52] More higher costs, higher
[00:20:53] Dr, Tim Shu: concentration, higher concentration in their share of bone of CB one receptors. So why,
[00:20:59] Bryan Fields: [00:21:00] what would that mean support sensitive? Would they
[00:21:02] Kellan Finney: be more sensitive to, to the molecules that bind with
[00:21:05] Bryan Fields: their CB one
[00:21:06] Dr, Tim Shu: receptor? Yeah, exactly. So they can be more sensitive to molecules that bind with the CB one receptor.
[00:21:12] And so THC is a partial agonist, so the CB one receptors. And so that means that they are more sensitive to teach. That’s cool.
[00:21:21] Bryan Fields: So let’s, let’s go through the product formulation. Do you start historically, have you started with an idea from a conception saying we’d want to go with a ratio or are you starting more with research and working through, take us through the process from idea to end
[00:21:33] Dr, Tim Shu: product?
[00:21:34] Yeah, it’s really interesting because in terms of the research there, there’s a lot of pre-clinical research out there that’s been done. Right. So. You know, you’ll, you’ll find studies that say you know, this or that cannabinoid was able to do this in mice or rats or it had this effect on cells in a Petri dish.
[00:21:52] And so that pre-clinical research is, is helpful because it provides a hypothesis. But then you, you have to come up with the [00:22:00] formulation to be able to test that hypothesis on a patient group that hasn’t had clinical trials. Run on it before. And so it’s a mix of taking the research that has been done and experimenting and trying different formulations in a real-world environment and seeing what works best.
[00:22:16] So that’s, that’s the simplest way for me to put it. It’s the timeframe for something like. Depends. I mean, you can have some things you know, and I know that certainly in some cases, we’re like, yeah, you know, what we’ll do is over the course of six months and it ends up being 12 months and it’s ongoing.
[00:22:32] I think other stuff. Yeah. I mean, there’s other projects that we’ve had that it’s, it’s run longer than what we hope for. Yeah. You’d be surprised, you know, when it comes to pharmaceuticals you know, in, in the pharmaceutical industry, going from the beginning to the end phase until the, the the patient’s actually able to benefit from pharmaceutical that could take decades,
[00:22:51] Kellan Finney: The pharmaceutical development, dog’s the same as pharmaceutical development timelines in humans.
[00:22:56] Is it, how does that having those processes. Cause like there is [00:23:00] there’s narcotics that are approved, like painkillers, right? Those are approved in humans and the same molecules approved in animals as well. Is there some, do they overlap like
[00:23:08] Dr, Tim Shu: that? Yeah. So, you know, there, there is some overlap in terms of you know, animal and human pharmaceuticals, you know, there, there are some.
[00:23:17] Pharmaceuticals that humans use that are used in, in, in the veterinary world as well. And some that are not just because they’re, there are some that are safe for people, but that are toxic for animals. So there are also veterinary drugs that are specifically developed for animals.
[00:23:33] Bryan Fields: Okay. I was going to say, all trials start with mice.
[00:23:36] Is they have equal starting ground or is that not.
[00:23:39] Dr, Tim Shu: A lot of them do, you know, a lot of times the humans, they try to use models that reflect human systems. So you know, it’s not always in mice, you know, sometimes they may use pigs for example. So on
[00:23:50] Bryan Fields: your website, I read about your corporate social responsibility policy for every bottle purchase.
[00:23:54] From our site, we donate a bottle to rescue organizations so we can help the helpers. Why is that so [00:24:00] important for your organization to continue the message.
[00:24:04] Dr, Tim Shu: Well, for me, my perspective has always been that business should be utilized as a vehicle for philanthropy. Right? So as a business, we always have to be looking at how can we give back?
[00:24:15] How can we. Improve the world. How can we leave it a better place than we found it? And there’s a lot of organizations out there that are trying to improve the world and they may not have the funds or resources to be able to do everything that they can. And so one of our goals is to be able to assist them however we can, to be able to help them achieve their goals.
[00:24:40] And so one of the ways that we do so is by doing that one for one program, but, you know, we also have other things like we have a scholarship that goes towards veterinary students and veterinary nursing students because, you know, students are heavily burdened by debts and loans these days.
[00:24:56] And so we want to help ease that burden for them. That’s awesome. [00:25:00] We’re
[00:25:00] Kellan Finney: also doing research. How do you balance like conducting meaningful research while trying to. Use that research to kind of
[00:25:10] Dr, Tim Shu: support the business. Yeah. So, you know, we, we take a look at what has the most evidence and what has the most potential to be able to, to benefit these animals out there.
[00:25:20] And it’s also. Based off of what’s available on the market. Right. You know, it wasn’t always the case that these different cannabinoids were available. And there, there are actually some specific components of the cannabis plant that I’m very interested in, but right now, no, one’s really extracting them.
[00:25:39] So it also depends on what’s available in the market. So right now, you know, a lot of extractors are. You know, they’ve got a lot of CBG, a lot of CBN, a lot of CBC, and it wasn’t always that way, but in the future, we’ll, we’ll start to see other cannabinoids be more available for research. You know, some, some people are doing CBT, some people are doing [00:26:00] the acids, like a CBDA CBGA and those are all.
[00:26:04] So we decided which
[00:26:06] Bryan Fields: areas you, you said before, there were certain areas that you were most excited about. Is there a certain cannabinoid in particular or a certain group of cannabinoids that you’re most excited?
[00:26:15] Dr, Tim Shu: Well, I mean, you know, everybody’s heard of CBD and everybody loves CBD and rightly so in terms of other cannabinoids that I’m super excited about.
[00:26:24] I mean, I would actually have to kind of, kind of flip that question. I’m more excited about. Our understanding of the endocannabinoid system, right? Because the, the endocannabinoid system is something that has been overlooked for decades. And unfortunately continues to, to get second billing, or you know, third billing, fourth billing.
[00:26:44] And I say that because this is something that is present in all vertebrae animals. It is deeply intertwined with all other physiological systems. It’s responsible for homeostasis in so many different aspects of our lives [00:27:00] yet it’s currently not being taught in most professional medical schools, veterinary schools or nursing schools.
[00:27:06] You know, I asked recent graduates that are doctors that are nurses. I asked them, you know, what did you guys learn about the endocannabinoid system in school? More oftentimes than not, the answer is nothing. And, and these are some of the doctors that are going to some of the best medical schools in the country.
[00:27:24] And so you think about that and you think about how important the endocannabinoid system is. And you think about the fact that they’re not teaching it in some of the best schools in the world. And that makes you wonder about the potential. Of the system and how much we’ll learn about it in the next five to 10 years and the impact that will have on our health and wellbeing.
[00:27:46] Bryan Fields: Are they surprised when you ask them that how much they’ve learned? They say nothing or they are, they kind of like taken back by, there could be an entire system I’ve never learned about take us through that. The conversation,
[00:27:55] Dr, Tim Shu: it’s an interesting conversation because it’s not something that they’ve ever heard about.
[00:27:59] And [00:28:00] so for, for a lot of them, it’s just like, oh, I’ve never heard of. And the in, in some cases it’s, it’s almost surprising because there’s a lack of interest because, because if they never heard about it, they don’t, they don’t understand the impact or the importance of it. Right, right. But, but for, for people that have been studying the endocannabinoid system, that.
[00:28:22] Mentality is shocking. Because we know about how important the endocannabinoid system is, but to hear that it’s not being taught in some of the best schools in the country, which were some of the best schools in the world will look back on it five to 10 years from now and will, will think, wow. Can you believe that there was a time where schools weren’t teaching about the Indo-Canadian, but do you think it’s going to
[00:28:42] Kellan Finney: be the catalyst that actually forces these schools to adopt this kind of discipline or topic?
[00:28:50] Dr, Tim Shu: If you will. It’s a great question. And I think it’s. One, what we’ve seen over the years is the clients or the patients actually going to [00:29:00] their doctors and saying, Hey, I’ve been using CBD, I’ve been using cannabis. And this is the thing that has worked well for me. This is what we’ve seen in doctors.
[00:29:09] People come back to them and say, this is what’s worked for me. CBD has been working for me. Cannabis has been working for me and then they have to ask, okay, well, why is that the case? You know, what, what is it about cannabinoid therapeutics? That’s actually working. I as a medical professional, have an obligation to look into this, to understand.
[00:29:24] What this is, and if it’s beneficial for my patients, then I have a moral and ethical obligation to understand why. And if I can assist them in improving their health and wellness through cannabinoid therapeutics, through the understanding of the endocannabinoid system, then I need to do so. Right. So that’s one.
[00:29:42] The other avenue comes from, let’s say a kind of a top down perspective. We know that pharmaceutical companies are developing drugs that specifically target the endocannabinoid system. And you know, right now we have Epidiolex, which is CBD that has been FDA approved. [00:30:00] Now, now doctors are forced to.
[00:30:02] Understand this, right. Well, this is an FDA approved drug, so, so why has this FDA approved drug been approved for certain forms of seizures and in the future? We’ll see more of that, right? Just an example is there’s pharmaceutical companies out there that are, are targeting specific enzymes that are involved with the endocannabinoid system.
[00:30:23] Right? So one of them is an endocannabinoid re-uptake and. And so what this drug does is it prevents the endocannabinoids from being taken into cells and broken down. So what that does is increases your endocannabinoid tone. So you’re circulating levels of a Nanda might in to AIG, and this can have different effects.
[00:30:42] And so when these drugs get FDA approved from the pharmaceutical companies, you know, we all know the pharmaceutical company does a very, very good job. Of educating doctors. Right? I mean, they, they did, they, they have their ear. That’s the reality of it. And so when, when pharmaceutical companies get these drugs, FDA [00:31:00] approved that specifically target the endocannabinoid system doctors will absolutely be hearing about it.
[00:31:05] Do you think
[00:31:06] Kellan Finney: legalization would also probably facilitate that from an educational standpoint? Or do you think it’s going to have to come from like the institutions that kind of run the information.
[00:31:17] Dr, Tim Shu: Yeah, it’s not a binary, it’s a combination of everything, right? So federal legalization will certainly help.
[00:31:24] But you know, now, now that hemp and its extracts are legal, you know, everybody is able to access CBD
[00:31:32] Bryan Fields: since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconstrue?
[00:31:37] Dr, Tim Shu: I think, you know, honestly, one of the biggest misconception is the demonization of THC. Right. And that comes from, you know, almost a century of prohibition that, that THC is something that just gets you high in THC is something that’s that just ruins your life, which is absolutely not the case.
[00:31:53] THC does have medicinal benefits and you know, to, to deny that isn’t to say that it doesn’t have any sort of [00:32:00] medicinal benefit is intellectually dishonest. So that’s one thing that I would love to see changed. And you know, I, I hear it a lot from certain communities that tend to demonize THC.
[00:32:11] And that’s unfortunate because there are a lot of benefits that can come from THC and the, the, so we just need to change our attitude about that. That’s really all set.
[00:32:21] Bryan Fields: If you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation.
[00:32:28] Dr, Tim Shu: That there’s always opportunities in our life to stand on the right side of history.
[00:32:33] And the way that we want to navigate our lives is to make the choices that our future selves will be proud of. So I encourage everyone to, to have that perspective because really the best that we can do in our lives is to leave this world a better place than we found it. You know, all of us are here because of the work and efforts of those that have come before us.
[00:32:59] [00:33:00] And we reap the benefits from that. The best that we can do is to be able to make this world a better place so that the generations that come after us can live better lives than what we’ve lived. It’s beautiful. All right.
[00:33:12] Bryan Fields: Dr Shu. What is the number one takeaway animal lovers should know about cannabinoid
[00:33:19] Dr, Tim Shu: therapeutics for their pets?
[00:33:21] It absolutely, it has potential benefits, but you know, don’t think of it as a, as a one size fits all. And don’t think of pharmaceuticals as As terrible things. Right. I, what I always encourage people is to, to get away from this trap of binary thinking, you know, people tend to want to silo things in their mind.
[00:33:41] You know, things are either black or white things are either zero one. And that’s because it’s, it’s easy for us. Right. It’s it’s an evolutionary advantage and add adaptation. Right. You know, when we were cavemen and things are either. Safe or not, but you know, we’re past that now. So for everything there is a time and a place, right?
[00:33:58] Like I mentioned [00:34:00] before sometimes pharmaceuticals are going to be much, much better. Sometimes cannabis can be a much better option. Sometimes a mix or combination of the two can be a better option. But do so under the guidance of a health professional, that’s trained in able to evaluate this from a scientific and medical perspective.
[00:34:18] Kaelyn
[00:34:18] Kellan Finney: change saves time. So I would say that if you’re going to treat or take any cannabinoid for on the additional benefit in your life, or to benefit your animals life, I would say that don’t expect it to be kind of like a magic pill and, you know, change takes time. So these kinds of medications take while for change to.
[00:34:39] Dr, Tim Shu: What do you
[00:34:39] Bryan Fields: think, Brian? Yeah, I think those are, those are all really good. And I think there’s different products for different people, different dogs. And I think not everything should be a one size fits all. I think both of you said really, really strong points. And I can think back to multiple conversations where people have leaned to us and say, Hey, I’ve tried this product for my dog.
[00:34:57] He didn’t have anything. It didn’t show any [00:35:00] effects. It doesn’t work well. It’s like, okay, where’d you get the product from? And then kind of certainly back in Dr. Shoe, like what you said, look into the product, make sure what you’re giving your pet is exactly what it says, consult your doctor on that. It should always be the same thought process.
[00:35:14] And I think sometimes people, they hear these conceptual ideas and they want things to work so bad, but they don’t go through the necessary steps to make sure. The product they’re selecting is the right one. I think sometimes they’re too trusting of just seeing a product and hearing about it versus kind of doing the steps, checking the COA,
[00:35:31] Dr, Tim Shu: doing some
[00:35:31] Bryan Fields: individual research, reaching out to their vet, looking on sites like yours and kind of taking those next steps to make sure that they’re, they’re selecting the right type of products.
[00:35:40] So, Dr. Shu, before we wrap, where can our listeners get in touch with you?
[00:35:43] Dr, Tim Shu: Learn more? Yeah, they can check out our [email protected] or that CBD hemp.
[00:35:50] Bryan Fields: Awesome. We’ll link those all up in the show notes. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you. [00:35:54] Dr, Tim Shu: Thanks for having me take care.[00:36:00]
