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MariMed operates in every vertical of the legal cannabis business. MariMed’s operational excellence is rooted in data driven decision making powered by innovative technology & equipment at every vertical of a cannabis operation.
About Howard Schacter
Howard Schacter has served as Chief Communications Officer of MariMed, Inc. since 2021. He brings a wealth of communications experience to his role in leading all external and internal communications to key company stakeholders, working to continually strengthen MariMed’s brand reputation, visibility, product sales, and retail store consumer traffic. Prior to joining MariMed, Mr. Schacter served for three years as head of communications for another leading multi-state cannabis operator, Acreage Holdings. Prior to entering the cannabis industry, Mr. Schacter counseled companies including Facebook, McDonald’s, Microsoft, Spotify, and many others as a senior executive at leading agencies, and earned a Brandweek Marketer of the Year award for creating and promoting a portfolio of licensed celebrity and athlete brands for apparel retailer Steve & Barry’s.
This show is presented to by 8th Revolution:
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in regard to the hemp & cannabis industry. Our forward-thinking team can diagnose, analyze & optimize every detailed nuance of your company to keep your business safe, smart, and profitable. Our flexibility and experience combined with ongoing research create unique insights into how to best grow your market share. Contact us directly at [email protected]
Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24
Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is my right hand Kaelin Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Howard Schachter, chief communications, officer of Merrimack Howard. Thanks for taking the time. How are you doing?
[00:00:16] Howard: Doing great.
[00:00:17] And thank you so much for having me so
[00:00:19] Bryan Fields: privileged, excited dive in Carolyn, how are you
[00:00:22] Kellan Finney: doing? I’m doing really well out here in Colorado. Excited to talk to two more east coasters again, you know, there
[00:00:28] Bryan Fields: it is. But another one out east coast, east coast is here. All right, Howard. So before we kind of dive in and discuss a lot of different concepts, I’d love for our listeners to get a little background about you and how you got into this space.
[00:00:39] Howard: Sure. And thanks again for having me. I’m a little jealous of the skiing that Kevin probably has had. We don’t, we don’t have much of that. We’ve got some, some, some, some, some great Arab on our, on our coast coming, but not such great ski weather at any rate me. So I’ve got about 30 years in in and around communications and [00:01:00] marketing.
[00:01:00] The vast majority of that before I got into cannabis, I would say is a classically trained communications guy. Both in agency. And in-house in, in, in senior positions representing and, and, and working with, and for some of the more widely respected brands out there. Coca-Cola Spotify, Microsoft live nation, Facebook and others.
[00:01:24] I really got my start though. Cutting my teeth working on a McDonald’s business for a national PR firm goal. Where, you know, I always say was sort of like going to the Harvard of PR in and out of what does it mean to use communications effectively to persuade and amplify message. So in and around agencies and and in-house jobs for most of my career, and then about five years ago while running a PR agency in New York city that had nothing to do with the cannabis space.
[00:01:55] A cannabis project opportunity came to help launch a trade group that exists today. [00:02:00] The national association of cannabis businesses. It was really a departure from what our agency was about, but a real exciting opportunity that we took on an ad helped lead on a project basis. And boy, you know, all, all the elements of, of what I love about this industry and always will love certainly the commerce opportunities.
[00:02:21] The social justice component of it and the health and wellness benefits of the plans all spoke to me immediately. And six months later, I found myself resigning my, but the presidency of the firm hanging out a shingle. And and I was off to the races. Was
[00:02:38] Bryan Fields: there any hesitancy to kind of dive into cannabis, obviously with a lot of your accomplishments with really, really big companies, canvas kind of comes with a stigma.
[00:02:46] So it was. Has it been ceased to kind of go from, let’s say, big outside industry into the cannabis.
[00:02:50] Howard: Great question for me, not at all for my partner at the agency. Very much so both frankly, you know, just at that [00:03:00] time not particularly educated on, on everything that we’re talking about that we know so well.
[00:03:05] But, but more importantly, and I don’t, I don’t, we’ll never blame her for this. You know, she was the, kind of a, a leader who felt like we know what we’re good at. We have a thriving agency there. And as long as the pot is big enough to grow from, let’s not depart, right? Like go with what you know. Well, and I think that’s a really smart marketing tenet, so I can’t blame her for that, but she was not good.
[00:03:28] She was not for us doing it, but I believe that it was a real opportunity. And so that, that was a very interesting. Interesting dynamic. And what we agreed to was, I would just sort of do it off the side of my plate with some of the younger folks in the firm. And and, and like I said, it was soak line and sinker.
[00:03:46] So when we got through that and out on an opportunity to do more in the space, as opportunities came to us, it became very clear that if I want it to continue in it, it needed to be a different path.
[00:03:56] Bryan Fields: Awesome. And I’m glad you shared those examples. So then let’s, let’s kind of move [00:04:00] into Mary mag. Can you share for our listeners who aren’t familiar.
[00:04:03] You know who Mary med is and the value they bring to the.
[00:04:06] Howard: Sure. Thanks for that. So, so let’s go back to 2017. I leave the firm. I joined well, I, I worked as a full-time consultant for the NACB. I then joined as the first head of communications for acreage holdings and other MSO. And you could have a whole podcast there.
[00:04:24] On the cautionary on some of the things we did great. And some of the cautionary tales of that, of that firm. So I rode the elevator up and a little bit down and found myself last spring thinking, you know what, it’s time to find another opportunity and spoke to a good number of ancillaries and MSOE and a lot of folks in the industry that I have the utmost respect for in terms of where do we think we’re going?
[00:04:48] How will. Horses to ride, et cetera and was introduced to the, to an opportunity at Meredith and all my due diligence on the company. I fortunately we’ll say, have come to [00:05:00] fruition. We are a smaller MSO. I guess when you think in terms of the tiers by revenue, anyway, that a lot of a lot of prognosticators do in, in the world of cannabis investing, I guess.
[00:05:11] Tier three we have seven dispensary’s in Massachusetts, Illinois, Delaware, three more development and Massachusetts and Maryland four large cultivation processing facilities in Maryland, Massachusetts, Delaware, and Nevada. We recently announced an acquisition that allow us to do. Fully vertical in Illinois.
[00:05:31] So we’re a, we’re a, we’re a tight focused MSO with a couple of things that I think really stands us out from the pack of, of MSLs out there, large and small we have a tenured and validated management team that’s been together for over 10 years, working together in every nook and cranny of this industry.
[00:05:52] And that’s so important. We’re not talking about just, you know, smart finance tiers. We’re talking about people that really understand what it [00:06:00] means to build and develop facilities, train staff build out SLPs, acquire licenses, et cetera, and put all of that knowledge to work for us every day.
[00:06:09] We’re organically. Yeah, we are not the result of going out on an acquisition spree and hoping to cobble together like cultures, processes, et cetera. We, the company began as advisors to license holders or those that wanted them and the consolidation strategy. That that have been part of our core strategic growth plan has been about acquiring those businesses that were clients.
[00:06:36] So we, again, built them help when their licenses build their facilities, train their staff. So the integration has been much more seamless. Much less risky, much less expensive. And I thought that was an, is an important part of the foundation of, of growth from there. Three and I suppose most importantly, financial discipline.
[00:06:58] This is a company [00:07:00] very disciplined about every single dollar that we spend operating budgets, SGNA, how we approach M and a and all other expenditures translates to. Highly profitable, clean balance sheet, great operating margins, significant cash on hand and poised for tremendous growth. All of that spoke to me doubling revenues the last couple of years.
[00:07:26] So and then finally at the end of the day, and as a marketer, what really speaks to me. A real focus on quality when it comes to R and D innovation and ultimately growing great flower and having great product our, our, our brands Betty’s eddies fruit chews nature. Seritage flowers. Award winners and top sellers in every market we’re in.
[00:07:48] And all of this, all of this was, was a great story that I felt like needed to be told. And that’s why I joined last spring. And I’ve moved up to Massachusetts subsequently [00:08:00] from from New York to be part of the home team. I
[00:08:03] Bryan Fields: appreciate you sharing that story. And from our experience, obviously on social media, there’s a lot of fans of brands out there and big MSF.
[00:08:10] Mary Beth is one that continually comes up. And I think there’s a difference because there’s ones that are spans and then there’s loyalists. And the, the app, the outgoing support that we found on Twitter for, for your company is really hard to rival and it challenges some of the bigger MSLs out there.
[00:08:24] So I give, you know, you and your company and your leisure team, a ton of respect for that, because you’ve been able to cultivate that plus the east coast markets, right. They haven’t even gotten started. And it’s exciting to think about the prospects of the future, especially with certain states that you named and how they haven’t really.
[00:08:39] I started getting the process. So before we dive into some of those specifics for our listeners, what does Mary med do differently or better than everyone else in this.
[00:08:50] Howard: Well, I think it’s well, first off, thanks for cluing into our investor base. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a very interesting insight that you raise and something that I paid attention [00:09:00] to before I came in, obviously something that we look at very closely every day, there really is a loyalty long holders.
[00:09:08] Folks that truly have a respect for businesses like ours, that focus on operational expertise, financial discipline prudent. And and not just going for the quick headline, although I know we’re going to be talking about headlines in a little while. It, it does ring true through that social media.
[00:09:25] So I’m glad that that experts like you pick up on that. Cause I think it’s so important that those investors are an extended part of the brand family, you know espousing. What’s great about it. So what’s the. It really at the end of the day, it’s, it’s not the sexiest headlines, but it is true a company that is a hundred percent focused on shareholder value through operational expertise, great products, financial discipline, that translates to financial results that, that that’ll last.
[00:09:57] Ultimately the value of the business to go in. [00:10:00] What’s interesting. And I won’t go take us down the rabbit hole, cause by no stretch, am I an investor relations guy, but we’re a really undervalued stock compared to other MSLs when you take all those things into consideration. So Kevin,
[00:10:14] Bryan Fields: I want you to kind of dive in there, operational excellence.
[00:10:16] We’ve talked about it from the podcast, how important it is to understand some of these nuances. Can you kind of expand. I mean,
[00:10:21] Kellan Finney: I think that there’s kind of two different strategies being employed right now in the world. You can either be like a curly for kind of a truly, that’s just doing a giant land grab, right?
[00:10:33] It’s it’s a land race. How many states can they get in? How big can they grow their operation? And I think sometimes. The quality kind of gets put in like a second priority, if you will, where I think the, the headlines in terms of entering new states potentially has the capacity to increase investor interest, right.
[00:10:56] And kind of growing their investor base and increasing the [00:11:00] stock price. And those things I think are one type of gain is being played by MSLs. And then. Companies like marry men that are hyper-focused on kind of quality and organic growth. And so my question Howard is. When you’re looking at these two, like the MSOE in terms of tier one, tier two, tier three, and you kind of stumbled across Mary bed was the size, one of the most attractive aspects of kind of jumping into a leadership role within Mary med, knowing that because it wasn’t this massive organization, you would have the ability.
[00:11:35] Influence change and kind of drive the ship based on your experience to success. Is that something that was a motivating factor for you?
[00:11:43] Howard: How that is such a great question. Thanks. So you hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways, you know, when I was thinking about what’s the right next chapter you have to, and then it’s, this is really for anybody looking at any potential career shift, right?
[00:11:59] Whether this thing [00:12:00] in their industry or, or, or not Yeah, you have to look do a true assessment of what’s made you really happy professional. And where you’ve succeeded. And boy, if you can have a cross section of that, then you know, it’s not going to be called work. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s just, it’s fun to come to the job every day.
[00:12:19] So what did Mary med afford me? Yeah, this is a growing company. So first and foremost, the team that I mentioned earlier, not only have they been in this a long time and doing a long time, genuinely smart. People that, you know, you’re going to go to war with every day. You want to, you want to truly have a respect and friendly vibe with, and we have that here.
[00:12:42] The culture is second to none in, in my experience. But then yes, in terms of opportunity as a communicator, when I looked at everything that Mary Wood was about, it just looked like the massive whole. Was communication. They, they admittedly and [00:13:00] they’ll admit if they were on the podcast, the folks that were here before me and Matt and current management, they did not truly understand how to create an a, a narrative that was easy to judge.
[00:13:12] And communicate and know strategies on how to communicate it. Well, that’s what I do. So, you know, opportunity. And then yet to be offered as a, as a communications professional, understanding what I brought to the table. In terms of management and leadership in my background, and knowing that that was something that could supplement the existing skillset of the management team and provide me a seat at the table, whereas so many arts, so often marketing and comms people here from the C-suite come down and say, Hey, here’s what we’re doing.
[00:13:44] Go tell the story to be part of the, the think tank of what the story should be w is really appealing to me too. So you add all of that together and then look at the fundamentals of the business and the growth potential, and what that could mean to, and [00:14:00] honestly, it was a no brainer. And I was, I had opportunity for, you know, some of the other major players, but ticking every single box Merriman.
[00:14:08] Was it an easy choice. So I want to
[00:14:11] Bryan Fields: move on to one of those marketing efforts and one I’m really excited to kind of dive into by now, I would say most I’ve seen the brownie, the infamous brownie that was posted across all major publications. So Howard, an origin about that, that that type of marketing effort was the goal originally to try and catch fire and expand about Bubby’s baked.
[00:14:31] Can you kind of take us through, you know, the backstory of the goal of the marketing effort and then, you know, how it came to.
[00:14:39] Howard: Sure. So the, the idea was how do we launch this new brand, right? How do we launch Bobby’s baked, which is a soft chewy line of baked goods that, that we we debuted late in the year.
[00:14:55] How do we launch it? And from a in an industry where, you know, [00:15:00] you can’t do traditional marketing, like traditional CPG, would you don’t have mass advertising channels or budgets. So that again, boy, you know, you love that as a communications guy. How do we use earned media, social media to get your message out?
[00:15:15] But at the core it was. The objective was how do we launch this brand? And, oh, by the way, is there an opportunity to do that by putting some shine and buzz behind the marrying that brand at, at the same time? So that, that was the communications challenge. I have a fantastic agency partner trailblaze who’s works with some other.
[00:15:38] Cannabis cannabis companies and we put our heads together and thought about that challenge in a big way and use some basic filters on what, and I’m, I’m a big believer in, in understanding the business goal you’re trying to achieve and then holding firm to a series of filters that if you can’t check the box [00:16:00] next to every one of those, it’s probably not.
[00:16:03] Going forward with, so for us it was things like is the idea authentic to the positioning of the brand. We had to have confidence, you know, to very hard to secure earned media coverage of products in cannabis. It just is certainly in regional newspapers and publications. Yeah. If you’ve got something you might hit the cannabis books, but.
[00:16:26] Boy thinking about outside of the cannabis outlets really difficult. Well, I challenged us to think about an idea that would do that. How do we, and it, and we had a, we had a real confidence that we will landing on something that would. He had cannabis books, but also general lifestyle and business media how to be cost efficient.
[00:16:47] Remember where, where the combat to go to my company for the first time and say, I really want to invest in a PR idea, PR stunt, you know, I had to be respectful of the dollars to be spent and [00:17:00] that I didn’t want it to be too much of a strain on internal resources. It was late in the year. Folks are taxed.
[00:17:06] You’re trying to crank it out. And I didn’t want to put too much of a drain on, on the system. And then finally, when ultimately reporters would ask the question of why now it had to be timely, you had to have some, it couldn’t be an evergreen. So we’ll, you could apply those, those, those same filters to any.
[00:17:24] But the brownie idea ended up ticking. Every box. We happened to get really fortunate that we came up with the idea right around the time that something called national brownie day was going on too. So we knew going for a record. People love records. People love big people are nostalgic for brownies.
[00:17:43] It’s national brownie day was sorta like, duh, this is, we got a winner. Perfect.
[00:17:50] Bryan Fields: You have, you have to craft it right. That, and even, I think Howard, I think you’re a little modest with that too, because like, even if you put all the pieces of a puzzle together, there’s still [00:18:00] a good chance. He doesn’t kind of pick up and build on the momentum that your team was able to capture.
[00:18:04] So before we kind of, you know, go forward in that process, I want to stay back in the. You know, what was the first part of the puzzle you put together? Was it the brownie and then was it, you know, what we need to make this brownie just over the top big, or was it a different vehicle that you said, you know, maybe a cookie and then you kind of switched to Brendan.
[00:18:20] Can you kind of take us through, you know, that fall?
[00:18:22] Howard: That’s a good one. So so what was it? Well, though, I mean, it was about the brownie. We, we thought about other aspects of, of the line, but the brownie is just, as you know, it’s just, it’s just symbolic. When you think about what that brand is about it’s, it’s supposed to harken back to that first experience that so many of us add as an introduction to this space, right?
[00:18:46] The the, the brownie edible for better or worse it’s of most people’s experience, but everybody has a brownie story. Right? So, and that’s part of the heritage of what the brand is about. So we knew we wanted [00:19:00] to be brownie And then, you know, big you know, really what, what the folks at trailblaze and I we’re really, we’re really scratching our heads about is what, what do we know media like to cover?
[00:19:12] And what do we know? Pop culture is our size. Giant, you know, like that’s that it just, it really wasn’t any different that then all it took was a few Google searches to see what is out there. Are there actually records to people pay attention to this kind of stuff. If they do, where does it get covered?
[00:19:32] You know, we really scrutinize that. We Al we looked at other worlds. Foods and saw where the coverage was. And at the end of the day, we, we just, our gut told us we have something here and it really didn’t have to be much more than a killer photo. We, we tried to make it as . Possible. If that’s even a word by using our kitchen staff that actually baked it to be in the picture, [00:20:00] it wasn’t just the brownie.
[00:20:02] We wanted to show that the human side of this thing in our kitchen where it was actually baked and and at the end of the day, you know, I’m the guy that, that that’s accountable to success or failure. And I have a look at my fellow management team members say, just, you got to trust me, I’ve done this a couple of times.
[00:20:21] I’ve made my career on these kinds of moments. When I tell you I feel it in my gut, you know, just, this is what you brought me on board to do. And we went with it. Yeah. The,
[00:20:32] Bryan Fields: the picture is so perfect to you. See the staff standing around. For me, like the brownie, the relate-ability spot on with all those aspects.
[00:20:39] And, you know, I touched on that pretty aggressively in our monthly playbook, but then when you see the photo and the sheer size of it in comparison to the staff, you just, your mind is blown. And the first thing that everyone wants to do when they see a photo like this is send it to someone else. And that to me, I think is like the real keys.
[00:20:54] To get something to go viral, especially in cannabis, you don’t have all your other tools. You need to have like the [00:21:00] social momentum, which is get something that’s so obscene and so ridiculous that you want to be the first one to send it to your whole family, which is exactly what I was when I saw it.
[00:21:08] And Kaelin, I want to know your thoughts, obviously from a marketing sense, I’m kicking out over here, but what’s your feeling when you see a photo like this, it doesn’t have that same sort of touch point. Does it have that same sort of relate-ability. I mean
[00:21:19] Kellan Finney: completely. And the brownie is like, I mean, everyone has like a college.
[00:21:24] We brownie story
[00:21:26] Bryan Fields: where someone maybe ate
[00:21:28] Kellan Finney: too many and didn’t get to hang out the rest of the day, not calling out anyone in my life.
[00:21:34] Howard: But I mean, it, it, it really
[00:21:36] Kellan Finney: makes you want to want to share. I have two questions. My first question is how much did you guys beat the other record holder by? And the second question is, did anyone try the brownie and how was it?
[00:21:49] Howard: So both great questions, man, and Kellen. You’re coming up with good ones. So how what did we beat it by? Well, what was shocking to us is first off. So Guinness has a [00:22:00] couple of, of cannabis, weed related. Records, they haven’t looked at it in, they haven’t looked at the space in a long time. They made it clear to us.
[00:22:09] They had no interest in going back to the space, which is an expos and the making on its own. Right. I, you know, the respect that Guinness as for a space today, isn’t what it should be. But there were very, very few records and Guinness and non non-touch brownie. So then it was okay. Does anybody claim to have the unofficial record?
[00:22:29] And nobody seemed to, so. Just general brownie records. And we couldn’t see anything that was more than my 250 pounds. So we blow away Pilate folds, even, even just the general brownie records. But, you know, that was, that just was, was just sort of you know, just icing on the cake or icing on the brownie as it were.
[00:22:53] Did anybody taste it? Well, you know, the, the brown. That we created, remember how to be authentic to the brand, [00:23:00] how to be, perhaps it’s not the exact shape of our Bobby’s brownie, but it is very, very similar to the actual. Of it. So, you know, you have to do certain things and show you how to manipulate, not manipulate the photo or manipulate the product, but you know, you have to touch and chew to, to make sure that the photo is right and, and Brian you’re a hundred percent.
[00:23:24] Right. Right. The idea of the angles, et cetera. And thank goodness for our photographer, John Simon, who we used on this, you know, really has an eye for these kinds of things and what sells from a PR perspective to understand the type of angles to make it that much bigger and pop. And I’m thrilled to hear that, that it, that it worked as you look at the photo.
[00:23:47] So long story short, we intended to to ultimately sell the brand. As an individual item to a Massachusetts medical patient the [00:24:00] reg suggested that we would be able to do it, but in the end it became, as we ended up dealing with the state, it became more of a challenge than was worth it. So. You know, nobody ended up taking it home.
[00:24:13] He ended up taking it home. But I, I, man, I saw some very funny meetings about, Hey, I’ll just take a quarter up. You know, corner thing was a beast. It was an absolute beast. So
[00:24:25] Bryan Fields: what I want to continue on, on this passage. So you take the photo. You send it to trailblazers, they disperse it to the media. At what point do you catch when that, this isn’t just one of those efforts where like, you’re getting some good bus, like things were really starting to pick up, like what, what goes off internally to recognize that like, Hey, this is really
[00:24:43] Howard: happening.
[00:24:44] Yeah. Another great question. So strategically we. We pushed out a news release about it and the photo, I believe it was December 7th with brownie day on December 8th, thinking editors will sit for it, [00:25:00] do their own homework, run with something on on Thursday morning. We started getting trickling of, of inbound, you know, questions at all on that on December 2nd.
[00:25:12] But we work. We, we woke up on the eighth to, to Justin. It was very clear, very quickly. We were onto something really, really big very quickly. And I think it was TMZ ran something in the middle of the day. We got word Jimmy Kimmel was going to be doing something. And I think those kind of mass hits USA today, put it on it on the cover of its, of its health section of all things.
[00:25:38] It was pretty quick that we realized we are we’re onto something even bigger than we, when We thought and I told trailblaze, they, my north star for this type of effort is a late night show. Get me a late night show and you know, you’ve hit the zeitgeist We had three plus Saturday night live. And the results were, the results were just [00:26:00] beyond the, what any of us could imagine.
[00:26:02] Bryan Fields: Yeah. I couldn’t even, I mean, I’m sure like when you go in, especially with someone, your background, you feel pretty good. And like you were saying, your gut kind of tells you you’re onto something. And even when you send that off, you’re kind of thinking yourself, you know, You know, everything checks the box.
[00:26:14] I hope it kind of picks up. I hope the timing is right. And then when you start to see the type of response, you’re like, oh my God, this is just like this. Isn’t just picking up steam. This is going absolutely crazy. And from our side, we saw it everywhere. And to kind of understand from a conceptual standpoint right now to evaluate the performance right.
[00:26:31] For, from my standpoint, I always look at marketing effort and say like, what’s the goal? And then what’s it going to cost us to it, to kind of achieve that goal and then kind of calculate a metric then to determine success. So from a success standpoint, obviously you can’t put a number on it, but how does Mary med and new specifically Howard, how do you quantify success in this effort to say, you know, like this is what we achieved successfully.
[00:26:53] These are the numbers we use to determine that. Was it impressions? Was it overall awareness? What was the end? You know, north star metric. [00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Howard: Right. So look beat the holy grail of communications and it’s anyone in PR and earned media and even social media outlets that have grappled with forever is how do you, how do you draw true ROI?
[00:27:14] You’d love to draw a straight line between effort and sales at the end of the day, right? Isn’t that why you’re doing anything from a consumer marketing perspective, but in less, you’re doing zero marketing outside of that one. Yeah, I can’t draw that line. So you just, you have to look at the tried and true benchmarks that are communications benchmarks, and you hit on a few of them.
[00:27:39] It’s consumer impressions, and I could walk you through the algorithms and, you know, the sort of the, the SOP is as it relates to how to determine impressions. But we had several billion. Which is just no big astounding astounding for for an effort like that. You know, some of those other fun stats, we, I think we had something like [00:28:00] 1400 stories at last count and you know, every day something trickles in 1400 stories in 43 countries.
[00:28:08] Really though important ultimately, and candidly, we weren’t thinking about this as a metric going in, but my mentor was outgoing. I mentioned I started my career at Golan and he always said, you know, wards meant nothing until we started winning them. And I sort of look at metrics the same way. This is a metric social media metrics that I hadn’t really been thinking about it.
[00:28:31] The numbers hit me in the face. We grew, we grew our community across our corporate channels. Not like the Bubby’s big channel that started from zero. And, and, and when sky I’m talking about Mary meds, corporate channels grew by about 300%, which meant that, you know, Looked at who is this company behind this.
[00:28:52] Right. And when you’re talking about a space that’s so retail investor heavy and for better or worse today, driven by [00:29:00] headline and buzz. To get that kind of growth and seeing that by the way, stay that stickiness. That was, you know, that, that really blew me away. In terms of in terms of results.
[00:29:11] And then look at you, you mentioned earlier, you know, that the, so the, the, the cost against those types of results, this was a couple of thousand dollars. You know, when you think about, literally think about labor and, and food costs, then a photographer. And now you’re talking about digital communication to get the word out.
[00:29:28] So it truly was peanuts against that type of that type of effect.
[00:29:33] Bryan Fields: I tried to calculate what you would have to pay in order to calculate for the cost per impressions. And the number was so astronomical based on the, the amount of views you got, that it almost wouldn’t make sense to, in order to do that, you’d have to be like a Coca-Cola or Pepsi or super bowl ad in order to get that type of impression.
[00:29:50] Yeah. It’s those results I think were so astounding for me to see that you got, your team had spent, you know, a few thousand dollars to create this and in turn had capsulated, just an enormous [00:30:00] amount of.
[00:30:01] Howard: True. True. And, you know, look while we’re on the topic, I’ll put my, my professor hat on of, of PR and I would, I would caution anyone out there that’s either NPR or responsible for the budgets of them or client.
[00:30:14] Don’t use advertising equivalency as. And I’m glad you didn’t ask me about it. Advertising equivalency is a really scary thing, right? So I don’t put a monetary value on the PR. And, and without getting too wonky, the reason for that is, you know, a story on, on in the New York times a quarter page.
[00:30:34] Advertising equivalency would say, well, what is a quarter page ad costs in the New York times? There’s your advertising equivalency of that head will know it doesn’t take into account. Was it a picture versus words? Was it one mention of your brand versus a full profile? Was it a negative story versus a neutral or positive one?
[00:30:53] So I’ve always discounted that number, but eyeballs are eyeballs impressions are impressions, engagement, and [00:31:00] stickiness to your story. You can’t, you can’t, you can’t.
[00:31:04] Bryan Fields: Did you lean into any other previous, let’s say cannabis based viral efforts when you were crafting this, or did you look into outside industry?
[00:31:12] Kinda one last question about that concept and then we’ll kind of take a different direction.
[00:31:16] Howard: Well, I guess the answer to that is. I didn’t draw on anything in cabinets. I’ve, I’ve I’ve overall. I would say my communication strategies and cannabis are informed through auditing. I’m a big on data and insights and always looking at what other.
[00:31:34] Other companies and other individuals are doing to drive their brand and what can we learn from them and good and bad. So to some extent, I would say that played like, and maybe that was the sector of cannabis, magazines and outlets. Where does this story belong and with who? But really what I, what I drew upon.
[00:31:53] More than anything was past pre pre cannabis experience. You know, I’ve been fortunate to be in a [00:32:00] position to do these kinds of have these kinds of moments. A couple of times in my career. And the playbook is the industries are different, but the playbook is the same in terms of filters. And some of the things that at the end of the day say, why would.
[00:32:15] Filling the blank a late night monologue want this or morning show or USA today, or the wall street journal, why would they cover this? And there are some elements that that whole true no matter what you’re promoting, that would say they will cover this and timeliness as well. Celebrity something that pulls that at the hearts, emotional heartstrings people.
[00:32:40] Right. All these things play in, in together. So I thought hard about where I’ve had successes before. And, and that’s what we applied here. Hmm.
[00:32:50] Bryan Fields: What is one challenge you have found marketing and cannabis that has surprised or shocked you that the everyday person and outside industry. [00:33:00]
[00:33:00] Howard: Great question. Well, in the world of marketing, I’d say that you know, I I’d like to say that that marketing and cannabis is like the United States of Europe, as opposed to the it’s that every market is so different.
[00:33:15] Your press releases need to look. Sometimes in different, in different markets, right? How you describe the product, obviously the area of, of whether you can claim benefit or not. So I think it’s, it’s the challenge and it can be a real hit. To think about how do you make noise for something in all these different markets where the regs are so different marketing regs are so different and you can’t use traditional advertising.
[00:33:44] And in some cases, even social channels have become so tough to do anything with. So, so getting through that slot, Is what I think most, most people that haven’t been in, in cannabis, but their eyes are wide open at the architect. I can’t wait. [00:34:00] You know, I can’t tell you how many people call me all the time.
[00:34:02] How do I get in it’s time? And I want to make that leap. I’m like, well, do you know? It’s, it’s fun. It’s great. We’re in the early innings, but expect, expect challenges that you haven’t faced with your with your Clorox bleach or your, you know, the RGO liquor. What have you Cal yeah.
[00:34:20] Bryan Fields: Perfectly said between market to market and recognizing that some of the tools you’ve leaned on your entire career and it’s like, yeah, you can’t use those good luck now.
[00:34:27] Good
[00:34:27] Howard: luck. Exactly. Exactly. Since
[00:34:30] Bryan Fields: you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconception,
[00:34:35] Howard: biggest misconception of the industry? That I suppose that, that anybody working within it are, are taken pops on a blunt while they’re, while they’re working away much more serious, you know?
[00:34:49] Well, seriousness is, is maybe too, too hard. It’s hard to ended up a term, but you know, this is an industry that is taking itself really [00:35:00] seriously, more and more every day. And and I think that’s gratifying at the same time because we’re such a left leaning liberal. Oriented industry. I find the population, the community of this industry.
[00:35:13] So terrific to work with. I talked about what it means to me to work with a management team that I really just adore. But the same holds true for the, for the media that covered. The salespeople at media platforms trying to sell their wares investors and pundits up. It’s just a really terrific industry to work in every day.
[00:35:34] I I’m curious if you find the same thing and it just makes it so much more enjoyable. I find
[00:35:39] Kellan Finney: I think I think it’s a unique industry because. Not only is everyone competing against each other for market share and those kinds of things, but the there’s a comradery amongst the whole industry because we’re all fighting federal legalization as well.
[00:35:55] Howard: No doubt, no doubt. And look, there’s, it’s a big pie, you know, or for [00:36:00] us all to Sharon. So the rising tide, you know, you’re not looking to step on the head of the competitive next door. You want to do better than them, but there’s room for all of us to grow. Absolutely.
[00:36:11] Bryan Fields: So before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would it be?
[00:36:22] Howard: Well, we talking cannabis could be
[00:36:24] Bryan Fields: life.
[00:36:25] Howard: Wow. You know, pay attention. Oh, well, so I, I like to use a wine from, from Larry King. I never learned anything. While I was talking. So it’s, you know, I like to be the guy behind the camera. I don’t do a lot of these kinds of interviews because I like to listen. I like to read, and that’s what I pass on every day.
[00:36:44] That to two younger executives who are coming up in, certainly in communications and marketing, you’re really good in this space. If you’re the kind of person we’ll go to a cocktail party and not, if I were to ask you, Brian, you know, I’m a [00:37:00] friend of yours, I’m going to take you to a cocktail party. You’re not going to know it, know a soul there.
[00:37:06] Do you get nervous about that or do you look, are you excited about that opportunity? Both.
[00:37:12] Bryan Fields: I think a little bit of nervous is good, healthy energy. And Kevin and I have done our fair share of uncomfortable networking in large groups. And it it’s, it’s about the experience and learning from others, right.
[00:37:23] Asking questions and figuring out what. What you can learn from
[00:37:26] Howard: others. Very, very well said. So I, I, I, I posed that question to two younger interview candidates, or at least try to assess it. I think those that are successful in marketing in any field enjoy that, enjoy that experience, that little bit of discomfort, but also the, the, the feeling that going in, you’re going to learn a little bit about a lot of different things.
[00:37:49] Well, learning that, that an inquisitive marketer. You know, that’s what an inquisitive marketer is all about drawing and then drawn upon all those things, know [00:38:00] how to, how to have that informed decisions and strategies. You know that. So that’s what I tell folks the next time you’re invited to a cocktail party by your friend who don’t say, you’re not, you don’t want to go jump in, go and and enjoy.
[00:38:13] And then tomorrow learn how to, how to apply some of what you learned from some of the people you met the night.
[00:38:19] Bryan Fields: That’s perfectly said, all right, prediction time, Howard, is there a formula that can be utilized to create viral marketing efforts? If so, what is the most important factor to consider? And if not, why not?
[00:38:35] Howard: So the, the answer is a hesitant. Yes, because there is a reason it’s called earned media. And not paid media. So there is never a guarantee, but if you’re able to check the box on the things that I mentioned much earlier in this interview is be able to answer why now from, from the press, make it [00:39:00] authentic to the brand.
[00:39:01] Make sure it follows some of the tenants of other things that, that land in the media that at, you know, the massive. I want to pay attention to, if you can answer all that, that basically is your formula for success. So, and then, and then go with it, just go with it. Don’t overspend, but, but go with the idea, Joanne, this is gonna
[00:39:25] Kellan Finney: be interesting.
[00:39:26] Howard: I
[00:39:26] Kellan Finney: mean, my perception on it is that. If you work at anything, you’ll see progress. So I think that putting effort in and working at these types of things there should be a right way to do it. And clearly there is. And so I think that, yeah, it’s cut and dry. If you put the effort in and. Able to kind of learn from your mistakes and see what other people are doing and see what works for them and what doesn’t and what works in other industries and kind of like put all those together in a pot and stir it up.
[00:39:59] You’re going to come up [00:40:00] with something successful. If you just stand there and throw money at it. I don’t think that that’s how you get anything done in this.
[00:40:06] Howard: A hundred percent. And I, by the way, I would also add, make sure you’ve got great partners. And, and if I haven’t said it enough the team at trailblazer has just been, they’ve been really great partners.
[00:40:17] That agency client relationship is just, is so important in making a marketing initiative home.
[00:40:25] Bryan Fields: So I’m going to take the other side unfortunate. Because I think the one challenge that people will face after listening to this is they will try and follow the exact same playbook that Howard put together and find out that it is not as simple and straightforward.
[00:40:38] Conceptually. Yes, the right. The, you check the box. But there are so many tiny details that your team got, right. That we’re in, enabled it to kind of hit its reach that I think it’s, it’s almost impossible to say this is going to be Meyer viral. I think you can feel good about it and you can feel confident going in.
[00:40:55] And I think you can derive really strong success from some marketing efforts, but in order to [00:41:00] go the type of viral viral that we’re referring to here, I think it’s, there’s some, there’s some serious luck to it because the angle of the photo, if it’s slightly off doesn’t mean. If there’s a perception that the individuals there are not, you know, there’s a different feeling amongst their, their body language.
[00:41:16] It might not hit if the timing is slightly off, it might not hit. There’s so many factors in play here that it’s it’s so it’s so challenging to do that. And so many. At least in my experience, people have come, Hey, I’ve got this next concept. It’s going to go viral. But really what is viral to me, there’s like this there’s extra range.
[00:41:33] There’s like success. There’s above average success. There’s incredible success. And then there’s actually viral, which is just absolutely exploding impressions where you it’s almost unstoppable fire. And I think what your team was able to accomplish, I think is commendable. And I wonder, I think there’ll be a ton of challenges in that.
[00:41:50] But I wonder if anyone will be able to replicate it and succeed and impression level what your team was able to
[00:41:56] Howard: accomplish. Well, thank you. I hope we [00:42:00] do.
[00:42:04] I hope we do. We’ll look a couple of years ago, I mentioned I worked at Anchorage and we we, we created an ad for the super bowl. It’s perfect timing. It was right around now. We did it. We did a PSA called the time is now. As, as you know, the time is now for legalization. Time is now for people to pay attention to this plant.
[00:42:23] And we tried to pay a couple million dollars to get it on air during the super bowl, CBS, they turned it down flat. And we seized that opportunity to tell a story, you know, Hey, if a CBS is going to put a beer brand on a pharmaceutical grade, Why not this. And we enjoyed similar sort of zeitgeists zeitgeisty success when your, your gut tells you you’re onto something.
[00:42:48] I think Alan said it, right. You know, you got it. You got to go for it and apply it. But there are the other myriad. You never know that there could be another new story that it’s, that. That trumps all. [00:43:00] So there’s absolutely locked, but again, that’s why it’s called earned media and not paid media. You are leaving a lot of those factors up to chance that you just can’t control everything.
[00:43:10] Well, we’ll
[00:43:10] Bryan Fields: be watching closely to see another one of those efforts kind of go viral. So for Howard, our listeners who want to learn more, they want to get in touch and they want to follow more viral markets. Where can they find you? Well, you
[00:43:20] Howard: can find me on Twitter very, very unsexy handle each Schachter.
[00:43:25] And they can certainly, you know, reach out any time over LinkedIn email, always happy to talk about the industry marketing PR and, and like we said, you know, the, the, the, the raising rising tide lifts all boats. So if there’s anybody else out there facing a challenge, but maybe I haven’t done anything like this.
[00:43:43] I will be very happy to expand on anything we talked about today. If it’s of help to any brands out there. Oh, that’s awesome. And
[00:43:50] Bryan Fields: I appreciate you sharing that. So we’ll link those up in the show notes. Thanks so much for your time, Howard.
[00:43:54] Howard: Thank you for having me guys have a great week. Enjoy the skin kill.
