Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
Lauren Wilson is a writer who approaches her work with an appreciation that every topic is always—always—more complicated than it seems. It is in the folds of complexity, the threads of nuance and the mending of contradictions that she weaves together meaning as an author, a freelance writer and a human being.
www.laurenmwilson.com
This show is presented to by 8th Revolution:
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in regard to the hemp & cannabis industry. Our forward-thinking team can diagnose, analyze & optimize every detailed nuance of your company to keep your business safe, smart, and profitable. Our flexibility and experience combined with ongoing research create unique insights into how to best grow your market share. Contact us directly at [email protected]
Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24
Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime as always I’m Brian Fields. And with me is my guy Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest best-selling author, Lauren Wilson, Lauren. Thanks for taking the time. How are you doing? I’m doing
[00:00:15]Lauren Wilson: great. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:00:16] I’m excited to be here.
[00:00:17]Bryan Fields: Excited, Kellen. How are you
[00:00:18]Kellan Finney: doing? I’m doing great. I’m doing great out here in sunny, Colorado. Excited to talk to us more east coast
[00:00:23]Bryan Fields: people. Yeah. I was curious to know if you were going to ask Lauren where she was located or if you’re just going to quickly in New York, right?
[00:00:28] That’s right. A little, another New York in the building. And I think chalk that up to some of their east coaster for us. So Lauren, before we dive in, I think it’d be great for our listeners to get a little background about.
[00:00:41]Lauren Wilson: Yeah. My name is Lauren Wilson. I am a writer, a self-proclaimed cannabis nerd, just a nerd all around.
[00:00:48] I’ve done five books, three of which run CBD and came to the cannabis space through the food world. I went to chef school and worked in restaurants as a chef for many years, taught cooking classes for many years, [00:01:00] wrote a couple of cookbooks specific to the zombie apostle. And then was endeavoring to write my third cookbook, which is going to be a cannabis edibles cookbook when I got pulled into the cannabis sphere and writing specifically about cannabis science.
[00:01:13] And so how I haven’t really ventured forest beyond the cannabis space since then. So I’ve been writing about cannabis for about five years and yeah. And here I am today talking to you.
[00:01:23]Bryan Fields: Yeah. And I’m excited to hit a variety of different topics, but I think for the first one, let’s start off with the easiest one cannabis through.
[00:01:30] For those inspiring chefs at home who want to get little bit into experience into the fuse. What’s the simplest way to try the experience without being fearful of overdosing.
[00:01:41]Lauren Wilson: I love that you brought that up because in fact the title of my forthcoming cannabis cookbook, which I still intend to do is edibles.
[00:01:48] Aren’t scary. Because as you point out, lots of people have not so fun experiences with edibles. And I think that with just a little bit of knowledge and a little bit of math, frankly, and figuring out what [00:02:00] dosages might be in each, w whether it be a brownie, a cookie, whatever it is you decide to make can really help.
[00:02:04] And then of course the, the. You start low and go slow, especially true with edibles, don’t rush to oh, I don’t feel anything. I’m going to eat some more. That’s where most people fall down the rabbit hole, so to speak. I think that cooking with cannabis can be really easy, really accessible, really approachable.
[00:02:18] I personally as a person who utilizes CBD, I make all my own CBD oils and really it’s, that’s a great entry point for people. Infusing an oil is an easy process. You don’t even necessarily need. Expensive or specialized equipment. There are some great extractors out there in the market that are easy to use and will produce great results, but you can do it with, a heat heat proof jar.
[00:02:39] On your stove, if you really wanted to, I use a Crock-Pot I have a Crock-Pot at home. Yeah, I think that cooking with cannabis can be as simple or complicated as you want to make it. And as long as you’re mindful as to dosages and paying attention to the math on that it’s as simple as that
[00:02:52]Bryan Fields: really.
[00:02:53] So I want to pick at that, cause I’m curious, right? Like for those who were a little more experienced with cooking with cannabis, they’re probably a [00:03:00] little more keen to trying a little more. So how do you figure that out? Three or four people over and let’s say most people’s normal doses.
[00:03:05] It’s just say 10 milligrams. Should we start with 40 to 80 milligrams? Or how would you put us on the basis for starting
[00:03:12]Lauren Wilson: successfully? That’s a great question. I think there’s a couple of different approaches. One is. You can have the, you can add the cannabinoids in. You can have an infused salad dressing or something.
[00:03:24] Let’s say where a person can decide you. You tell them, okay, they’re in a teaspoon, there’s about five milligrams or what have you. And then people can decide for themselves how much they want to add. And you can incrementally add, whereas opposed, with a cooked item or a baked item where it’s baked in there and whatever’s in there is in there.
[00:03:40] That’s a less flexible way of doing. And then as far, the dosages question is a huge question and it varies so widely for people, right? 10 milligrams for some folks is quite a lot. And for some folks is nothing at all. So I think that, if I were to air on if I were hosting people and I didn’t necessarily know what their level of comfort [00:04:00] is with cannabinoids, I would certainly do something where people can have.
[00:04:02] Self-directed that journey. And then also advise, Hey, start off with a small bat and see how that goes. Can I add more to that? Do you, is there
[00:04:09]Bryan Fields: no, keep
[00:04:09]Lauren Wilson: going and then, yeah if I were then having to think about dosages, I would, if I was doing a cooked item or baked item, I would always just do something really low.
[00:04:18] The other thing that. I hear a lot in, in, cannabis dinners and chefs that are hosting these events. And I think this is a really wise way to do it is if you’re infusing all of the food throughout the, multiple courses, you got to make the dosages really low because obviously there’s a cumulative effect there.
[00:04:34] I know certainly some people have gone to events, but by the end of the event, if you’re having cannabis, like infused items in every course at the end of it, it’s like. That’s a lot. That’s not so fun anymore. So definitely spreading cannabinoids out over the course of an evening is smart.
[00:04:51] Again, having people, having a self-directed journey where they can maybe take less or none at all, if they want. Like maybe the second course, like I don’t really want to have kids [00:05:00] was this one. They have the option to sit out.
[00:05:04]Kellan Finney: Yeah. So dosage is in reference to THC, correct. And so there’s this whole entourage effect that we’re still figuring out from a scientific perspective.
[00:05:14] How do you factor that into what you pair certain strains with certain foods when you do that is that something that you even consider in the cooking
[00:05:21]Bryan Fields: process?
[00:05:22]Lauren Wilson: This is something that a lot of people consider, and I think it’s a hard question to answer because it depends on. The, I want to say modality, but that’s not a, that’s not a good word for food, but it depends on the way in which it’s being processed, heat treated, cooked, whatever.
[00:05:36] If you’re taking a strain that is like really citrus forward, then, and you’re baking that, then you might end up losing a lot of those turpines in the process. Whereas some people’s approaches, which is also an interesting way to do it is to not infuse the food at all. Let’s say you have a, a citrus four strain, you would smoke that.
[00:05:54] And then have food that’s very citrus forward and that’s a way of complementing those two things. And then, again, [00:06:00] if you, depending on, let’s say you make an infused oil for a salad dressing, you can do that at a really low heat that will preserve more of the terpene. So then that will be it’s a little easier than to pair a citrus flavored food with that because the turpines are per.
[00:06:16] Preserved, and you can get that experience a little more on the nose. Does
[00:06:20]Bryan Fields: that make sense? That does make sense. Thank you. What is, let’s say a recommended meal. If someone wanted to try and they said, Hey Lauren, like I’m hosting my friends there, they into cannabis would they never tries an infused meal.
[00:06:32] What can I make to experience?
[00:06:35]Lauren Wilson: That is a really impossible question to answer only because the, it really depends on, do you want to have a seam for your meal? So maybe you want to do, like a Hawaiian themed meal, for example. Do you ha what is your level of cooking ability and expertise?
[00:06:50] There’s a whole, there’s a whole lot of ways to tackle that question. But if you’re, if you yourself are inexperienced with cannabis cooking I would say, start with again, [00:07:00] infused oils to me are just such an accessible point to start with cooking to an infused oil and think about how you could use that over the course of a meal.
[00:07:07]Kellan Finney: Yeah, if someone isn’t into kind of going out and purchasing candidates and doing the extraction process, do you think that they could go purchase like a tincture and go through the process that way to expedite the whole generating the food?
[00:07:22]Lauren Wilson: Sorry, you broke up for me on that one.
[00:07:24] Can you repeat?
[00:07:25]Kellan Finney: Yeah, I was just wondering the question was that people aren’t comfortable going out and purchasing flour and actually doing the extraction. In-house do you recommend them going out and purchasing a tincture that’s been activated or just a. Concentrated oil, like a dab, if you will.
[00:07:39] And utilizing that to, to infuse into the feud.
[00:07:43]Bryan Fields: Yeah. So
[00:07:43]Lauren Wilson: there’s different. Yeah. There’s different ways of going about it. You could purchase a tincture. I don’t know that’s the most cost-effective way. I have also heard that people will use concentrates to then melt and diffuse and infuse. That being said, and I, haven’t done a good survey as to what the product landscape looks like at this [00:08:00] point, but I know there are a lot of enterprising chefs out there that have been working to develop infused olive oils and all kinds of different products.
[00:08:06] If you don’t want to do an infusion yourself, I’m pretty sure there’s tons of options out there.
[00:08:12]Bryan Fields: I saw one in California has a hot honey and fuse, and I was interested in making my way out there to acquire that because my God, that would be excellent. So
[00:08:22]Lauren Wilson: it’s going to happen here in New York. We’re on board.
[00:08:26]Bryan Fields: I’ve almost lost hope at this point of getting our act together, but maybe you’re right. Eventually we’ll get ourselves together. So let’s slightly switch gears as a self-proclaimed cannabis nerd. What is one area or one time? That most outside the cannabis industry.
[00:08:42]Lauren Wilson: Ooh. Wow. That’s a great question.
[00:08:46] I think that it’s really it’s. As to people who are very steeped in the cannabis space, no pun intended. I think at sometimes it can be hard to get your head out of that space and realize like how much, that being. I often as a writer, I’m an, I’m [00:09:00] a writer who thinks about audience first all the time.
[00:09:02] And I think about, the general population, who’s not steeped in this space. What are they thinking about? What questions are they asking? What are they like? What is, what are their touch points to cannabis? And I do get a lot of questions from folks as an author. I do get a lot of questions from folks who are new to the space and naive to cannabis.
[00:09:18] And one thing that always really tickles me. Is that how many people don’t know about the endocannabinoid system and that it exists. Once you get into the cannabis space, like it’s one of the first things like the first science touchpoints for anybody is oh we have an endocannabinoid system, CB receptors.
[00:09:34] This is how it works. Great. But most folks, and I think that, as cannabis becomes more of a mainstream conversation, more people do know this, but still a lot of people don’t. So that’s definitely one that sticks. It sticks out to me.
[00:09:45]Bryan Fields: Yeah, I think that’s so well said. And I know Kellen we’ve had conversations.
[00:09:49] We’ve had doctors on the podcast and they are just blown away by the fact that the ECS system is not taught. And again, I asked him like, why not? So Kellen? Why? Like, where are we [00:10:00] in? When is ECS system going to become, where it needs to be?
[00:10:03]Kellan Finney: We’ve had this conversation before. I think it requires federal legalization at this point.
[00:10:07] You know what I mean? That’s going to be the only real catalyst where you’re going to have these massive institutions. Actually start to implement the ECS in medical schools. You know what I mean? I think it’s still risky for him at this point with it being not federally legal, which makes no sense to me, but I think that’s what it’s going to take from a catalyst perspective.
[00:10:26] What are your thoughts, Brian?
[00:10:27]Bryan Fields: I want to ask Lauren a question. So Lauren, like here in New York, right? Like I feel like sometimes from an educational standpoint, we’re behind right on in Kellen’s turpentine. The expectancy of what cannabis is like secondary now. Like it doesn’t even really matter for us here in New York.
[00:10:41] I still have people asking me, like I’m going to take the CBD product. Will I get high? And that’s like the massive disconnect from educational level. So asking you Lauren doctors here, let’s say in New York, if you ask your primary care doctor about the ECS system, do you think five out of 10 would know eight out of 10 window?
[00:10:57] What do you think their,
[00:10:59]Lauren Wilson: I [00:11:00] think I actually have a personal anecdote to share on this. Question, which is that, I think Kellen your point to federal legalization, push. Education forward is valid. And I think you’re right a smaller way and maybe more grassroots way that folks can have an impact if they so choose.
[00:11:15] This is something that I felt bold about doing, but this doctor that I really admire Dustin Sulak came out with a book for clinicians, cannabis for clinicians, and I ended up buying two copies of it and I brought one copy to my primary care physician. And I was just like, Hey, I don’t know.
[00:11:33] What your level of awareness, interest care is in this space at all. But I have an extra copy of this book. I think this doctor is great. Here you go. And my doctor literally just retired a week ago, so she was at the end of her career. And she’s certainly aware of cannabis.
[00:11:49] I don’t know how much she knew about the ECS, but she appreciated having that. So that’s all that to say. That is one way in which we can push the envelope a little bit is a just asking your doctors about it. And [00:12:00] if they don’t know, it could be enough for them to be like, oh, maybe I should look into this a little more seriously.
[00:12:04] But I think that if I were to guesstimate, at New York, how many physicians are well versed on like a endocannabinoid system? I it’s certainly not the majority.
[00:12:14]Bryan Fields: It’s so sad. It’s so sad. So continuing on that, right for CBD 1 0 1, 1 of your books for those who were intrigued, but unsure when to take CBD, what would you record?
[00:12:26]Lauren Wilson: When as in what time of day?
[00:12:28]Bryan Fields: So if you’re, if you wanted to dabble with CBD, but you’re not sure. You have some anxiety or it late at night and you enjoy your wine. Like when would you position it? Because I think sometimes with CBD, at least from my side, is that people are concerned about the psychoactive Venice.
[00:12:39] It might, make their day harder. What would you say is like a good for.
[00:12:43]Lauren Wilson: That’s a great question. And I think that it really depends like all things, it’s an individualized thing. With cannabinoids, we have something called this by phase like effect, right? So at one dose you might experience this at a higher dose.
[00:12:54] You might experience the opposite or something different and with CBD, that can happen. Folks, I would say [00:13:00] probably the number one reason that CBD that folks take CBD is to help with sleep and pain. Probably. That being said. It seems from what I understand. And again, there could be new research that contradicts this, but the mechanism that helps people sleep with CBD is not sedation.
[00:13:16] It’s helping them relax. And so it’s not going to make you sleepy per se. That being said for me personally, if I take a, lower for me, dose of CBD, it has a very alerting effect. And that is something that some people experience. So if you’re new to CBD, I would say, start in the morning and see what happens.
[00:13:37] If you notice that it has an alerting effect or it makes you feel a little bit more awake, you might not want to be taking it at night. I personally never take CBD past, like mid-afternoon because it’ll keep me awake.
[00:13:47]Bryan Fields: What about you?
[00:13:47]Kellan Finney: I’m the same way. CBD kinda forces me focus more honestly.
[00:13:51] And it’s the same with CBG as well. I’ve been dabbling with that more recently as well. And it totally it’s I’m like hyper awake and there’s no way I’m going to go to sleep. I accidentally [00:14:00] took a
[00:14:00]Bryan Fields: CVG gummy.
[00:14:02]Kellan Finney: Two weeks ago at 4:00 PM. And I was up until three in the morning, just like wide awake.
[00:14:07] And I was like, what is going on? And I was like, it has to be that gummy.
[00:14:11]Bryan Fields: I, I appreciate you said by accident, right? For me, I actually have the opposite effect when I take CBD, it, it slows me down and it helps me relax. And again, maybe it’s all mental and maybe it’s all like in my head, but I sometimes take it as like an alcohol replacement where I don’t want to have that glass of wine, but I want to also slow down and relax.
[00:14:28] I pull out the PVS tincture and enjoy that and it slows me down and actually makes me tired. So wonder, if all of my UCS system is
[00:14:36]Lauren Wilson: I don’t think that you should frame it in that your ECS is screwed up. It’s just, yeah. It’s backwards,
[00:14:41]Bryan Fields: right? Yeah. I’m definitely right.
[00:14:43] I’m different. And it makes me unique and special. That’s right. All right. So let’s stay on medical research. Is there any new research that you’ve seen from a cannabinoid standpoint that you’re excited about? Any new cannabinoids on the block that make you interested in.
[00:14:56]Lauren Wilson: I think that I’m just generally excited [00:15:00] about the research landscape for cannabis, and I’m really excited about it.
[00:15:03] A lot of there’s been so much research that has been done. That being said, there’s so much research that needs to be done, and so I think that the discoveries that lay ahead are going to be really interesting, especially when you talk about. The entourage effect. That’s an area that we don’t have a lot of support for that.
[00:15:20] Some people will be yay or nay as to whether or not it’s a real thing that’s happening. I personally think that there’s something to it. And I think that once we dig in with scientific research, we’re going to find some interesting things. And then as far as the cannabinoids themselves go. We’re in such early days, THC.
[00:15:36] Cool. We’ve done a bunch of research on THC now, CBD is catching up for that. But when we talk about CBG CBN, THCV, like there’s just like w there’s over a hundred cannabinoids that we have not. Looked into I’m excited about all of them. I know that’s not a great answer.
[00:15:49] And I think that I can’t really point to one versus the other, because we’re at such early stages. I think we really need more research to really dig into these minor cannabinoids. But [00:16:00] certainly that doesn’t. I mean that, that doesn’t like my scientifically like rigorous and pure approach to okay, what does the data show is very different than what happens on the consumer level, where people are just very excited about different compounds and experiments experimenting.
[00:16:16] And whatnot. So
[00:16:17]Bryan Fields: you think that’s going to be a big challenge going forward because there’s so many different cannabinoids and until we can align educational level, for example, if a consumer goes to a product and see CBG and then goes how is this different than CBD? We’re making it harder for the end consumer.
[00:16:31] So I guess what can we do as an industry to simplify the experience so that an end consumer can walk into a dispensary and get. That they want or do associate, is it that initial research to align those things? Is it education towards budtenders? What do you think there?
[00:16:46]Lauren Wilson: I think that’s a great question, but it’s a really layered and complex question because from the consumer education standpoint, I’m a consumer that is this way I want, I don’t want to do work in [00:17:00] understanding a thing.
[00:17:00] And that’s continued as a person who communicates around cannabis science. That’s a fine balance that I have to walk all the time, which is like, how do you communicate complex ideas in an accessible way without overloading people for one. And i, but that being said, I do think that, especially when we’re talking about, a poly pharmacological compound or plant like cannabis, there is there are some things that you should understand.
[00:17:22] There are some basic pieces of science that will help you have. Experiences. So I think that consumers need to take a little bit of responsibility and like getting the lay of the land and understanding what they’re dealing with. And under, at least understanding the basics of the ECS, the basics of the, how the plant works and the different classes of compounds in them.
[00:17:40] And then I think from an industry perspective, I, I really think we need to be transparent about what we don’t know and be transparent about the fact that okay, listen, If a customer came to me and asked me about CBG, I would say, all right, so far we have really basic research that points us in these directions.
[00:17:58] So you might see [00:18:00] therapeutic value in these areas. But the good thing about cannabinoids too, is that, they’re safe compounds, so it’s not like a person can be fearful of experimenting with CBG. They might notice like, oh shoot, I can’t take a gummy at 4:00 PM. Cause I’m going to be awake.
[00:18:12] But in the grand scheme of things, that’s not a big deal. It’s. There is responsibility and I do think bar budtenders do have a big responsibility. When we’re talking about and legally it’s a complicated issue, what can bud tenders do? What can, what they can’t do?
[00:18:24] What should they do? What they’re not doctors like it’s again, like I said, it’s a very complex answer. I think there’s responsibility on all sides of the consumer, the industry. And then obviously, research to keep plugging forward and keep figuring things
[00:18:36] out,
[00:18:37]Bryan Fields: telling you want to chime in there.
[00:18:40]Kellan Finney: Yeah. I think that there’s just so much research to be done on the space and the personally, I think that you can approach ingesting cannabinoids in one or two ways, right? If you’re going out to try to increase your wellness, if you will, then I think that’s a completely different approach and you should be a lot more open-minded to every different cannabinoids.
[00:18:59][00:19:00] CBG or CBD or CBN or anyone that’s available. If you’re looking into the cannabis space to treat an illness, I think that’s a completely different approach and that’s more of a pharmaceutical and like medicinal aspect. And I think you really need to work with your medical professional and if you’re approaching.
[00:19:17] To try to treat the illness. It’s a completely different conversation. If you’re just trying to either have a good time recreationally or improve your wellbeing, then I think approaching it from the, and I don’t think you can harm it. And like Lauren said, like most all these cannabinoids are harmless, so you really don’t have anything to really worry about except maybe important I sleep,
[00:19:36]Bryan Fields: i, that was really well said gallon. And one of my favorite ways of separating the conversation. I think that’s one of the biggest challenges. Everyone just grouped it together. Like I want cannabinoids and that’s not really how that approach works. It has to be on an individual need faces, and I’m really glad that you clarified that.
[00:19:51] So Lauren, keep it on that topic. Teach seat. Oh, seeing a lot of news out there about it. And obviously with cannabinoids being [00:20:00] popular and new ones rising is THC. Oh, the next new popular.
[00:20:03]Lauren Wilson: It might be the next new popular cannabinoid. I personally myself have not consumed it. I can’t speak to, the effects or the experience.
[00:20:11] I have heard that it is very potent. Yes, it is psychoactive. So I don’t want to be a word nerd stickler about it. CBD is technically psychoactive, meaning that it just, creates an effect in your brain that has some impact I like to distinguish psychoactive and intoxicating.
[00:20:30] So THC is intoxicating THC. THC is intoxicating. And in fact, it, as I said is very potent. So it can be very intoxicating and some people have described the experience with THC. I was psychedelic. So having that next level. I don’t know if Hulu like hallucinations are happening. I w we’ll we can dig into it a different way.
[00:20:51] Do you want me
[00:20:51]Bryan Fields: to say I got more questions?
[00:20:54]Lauren Wilson: The popularity of teach CEO, remains to be seen. Do you want to jump in with a question? [00:21:00] Okay. But when I think about the THC-O and kind of the same broad umbrella as Delta eight, as these other, if you want to call them semi-synthetic compounds that are popping up and, THC-O might be.
[00:21:16] A really valuable, useful compound, whether it be for a fun experience or helping, treat a condition same with Delta eight, the trouble is that. These compounds operate in kind of a legal gray area. So both in the case of Delta eight and THC-O they can both be synthesized from Delta nine, THC, but what’s happening is that they’re being synthesized from CBD hemp CBD specifically, right?
[00:21:45] Hemp is legal. So you take some hemp CBD. You change it into Delta 8 or you change it into THC-O And where we’re seeing the most use and adoption for these compounds is, are in states that don’t have access to legal Delta 9 [00:22:00] and that’s all fine and good, except for the fact that this the CBD market is not regulated at all.
[00:22:08] There’s no oversight on how the. Compounds are being made. And, I don’t have a complete and thorough understanding as to the chemistry behind them, but from my understanding, the synthesis process can bring with it. A lot of other weird compounds, not so good byproduct. And if there’s no regulation and oversight as to what’s going into these products, there’s no testing.
[00:22:31] There’s nothing to validate. There’s nothing to show that there’s all this kind of muck. Let’s call it. In addition to the D Delta eight or TCO, that’s dangerous place to play. As far as consumer safety is concerned. It’s a thorny beast at the moment from where I sat. Yeah.
[00:22:46]Bryan Fields: I think that’s really well said. And I want Kaelin do expand on that because we’ve had some conversations here. We have not dabbled with THC O though. So Kevin, what’s your thoughts? It’s the same
[00:22:53]Kellan Finney: as I’ve, I’m a, I have a little soap box regarding all of these other contaminants that are coming from getting up [00:23:00] there.
[00:23:00] The synthetic routes or CBD is now being changed into all these different cannabinoids. And there’s a reason pharmaceuticals are really expensive, right? And there’s a massive amount of paperwork and verification and just insurance that goes into. The, even your aspirin, when you go take your aspirin, the chemicals in there have gone through hundreds of different tests to ensure that it’s exactly what you’re taking and everything in there is safe and there’s no side effect, the least amount of side effects possible.
[00:23:31] And so like the amount of money that pharmaceutical companies spend to ensure that the API that they’re providing consumers is the only that chemical. Astronomical, this is why the pharmaceutical industry is so massive. And for all of these kind of garage chemists, if you will, because all of the CBD industry is new, right.
[00:23:51] Have industries new. So it’s a new industry, everyone’s a startup in the industry. So no one has a really robust organic chemistry, [00:24:00] synthetic laboratory, they piecemeal it together, bootstrapped it, if you will. And they’re doing garage chemistry. And at that point, the amount of byproducts that come.
[00:24:08] From these organic synthetic reactions are Ash. It’s insane, right? Like they’re using chemicals that like methylene chloride very carcinogenic. They’re using piece off on a tall. You wait to do the synthesis. So all of these chemicals that people have never even heard of are very, they’re very toxic chemicals.
[00:24:24] And not only that, it’s not like they take CBD. Add these other chemicals to it and all of the CBD, then just go straight to Delta eight. For instance, there’s going to be Delta eight. There’s going to be Delta nine. There’s going to be Delta 10. There’s going to be all these other chemicals that we don’t even have even identified chat.
[00:24:39] And you’re just being like, all right, Willy nilly. I’ll just throw all that in my body and see what happens. I think that’s where the biggest danger is to the industry in my perspective, because. We are already fighting these cultural stigma, right? Like it’s devil’s lettuce. Like we’re already fighting that from the last 60, 70 years.
[00:24:57] And now we’re going to start creating poison [00:25:00] and people the hazards that could potentially. Consumers could have from ingesting, these compounds could really just shoot the whole industry and the flood. So that’s my soapbox.
[00:25:10]Bryan Fields: It’s so challenging, right? The S the CBD market. It’s so frustrating, but I think THC is going to have an additional layered problem.
[00:25:18] And I think it’s just from a marketing standpoint, if you think about it, like Delta eight we understood the rise in popularity and THC. Oh, similar. But the one challenge I think is that when consumers see THC, oh, They’re associated with THC, right? No, they get high with it. And the real challenge is if they can get higher with THC, then let’s with normal Delta nine.
[00:25:38] Then I think there’s going to start to be this more craving towards it. And I’m fearful, like Warren was saying that the states that don’t have. Legal use are going to reach for this and be like, I can get higher. It’s THC. It’s likely related to THC and TC. How far apart could they really be?
[00:25:54] And we don’t have to discuss all the other nuances, but people make these assumptions when they can buy a product [00:26:00] that it is safe. And I’m not saying that it’s right, and I’m not saying the consumer’s wrong, but I think there is this false sense of security that if I can buy this product, it’s. And it’s got a label on it.
[00:26:12] It’s got the label and no one reads the label, right? That’s the craziest part that I go TTO. How far off is that is THC. One time, my uncle he was trying to product, and this is for CBD CBG. It was like I think my cousin was like, oh, it’s like CBG this and teach. And he’s like just rambling off letters.
[00:26:28] And he was like, what’s next? He’s like this. And it’s yeah, dude, like there’s a lot of cannabinoids and it is confusing. And all he said at the end was I just want to get high. That’s all his singular focus was. And I think that goes back to speaking towards people’s interests and understanding that at the end of the day, we need to simplify it.
[00:26:43] When we operate in this gray area, in the gray area, which teach the O is, which is weird to think about. It’s just going to layer the complexities too, because the politicians don’t know what they’re regulating and are going to be even more confused when they go, can we just group all these things together?
[00:26:59] And it’s not really [00:27:00] how it works.
[00:27:01]Kellan Finney: And it could be really detrimental to, because there could be a massive medical benefit for the O and then all of a sudden it just gets shoved into a box because of this negative outcome of the consumer, taking it with poor chemistry going on in the
[00:27:15]Bryan Fields: background, even worse, like another fate gate, if THC O is all these days, like all we need is one bad. Where another politician get up there and be like, see, like this person, he’s 18 years old, he consumed this and then he drove and now all this bad publicity. And now we set back an industry that already has all these challenges because of all these other like limitations.
[00:27:34] It’s definitely going to be one of those cat and mouse games. We’re figuring out how can we regulate this effectively clean it? How can we make sure the consumer who’s craving this product can get one in a safe, secure, Awesome. That’s going to be a challenge. So I want to continue on that conversations.
[00:27:51] Let’s talk about the psychedelic aspect. You said sometimes people you’ve never consumed HCO, but they’ve related that feeling. Do you see psychedelics and the cannabinoid [00:28:00] industry merging in the future? What do you see for that?
[00:28:03]Lauren Wilson: Oh, merging kind of
[00:28:06]Bryan Fields: like blending together. Like everyone grouping into a category together saying okay, like these two people, we’re going to put these two events in one group and call it.
[00:28:13] Let’s call it. Stigma
[00:28:16]Kellan Finney: stigmatized saw that with Delek labs, right Canada. They were originally CBDB focused on cannabis research and they completely now do canvas research and psychedelic psilocybin research as well. So they’re, they’ve merged the two. It seems like a natural one. What do you think Lauren?
[00:28:31]Lauren Wilson: I, again, complicated question because merging could mean any number of things. So like from a business perspective and looking at the evolution of these two, psychedelics and cannabis purely from a market perspective, like sure. It makes sense that if there’s crossover, as a person who’s been steeped in the cannabis space for the last five years, now, just shifting my focus to the psychedelic space, just as a person who’s interested in the science and the socio-cultural side of things in history, there’s a lot of.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] There’s a lot of shared background there. When you put forward that question though, my mind jumped immediately to oh, interesting. Is there some way to combine these compounds therapeutically, whether it be, as a health and wellness thing or as a medical thing, and I can’t speculate to that.
[00:29:18] I can’t say, I don’t know psychedelic science well enough, I’m starting to, I’m just starting to get into that space, but that’s an interesting question because if you look at something like. I’m trying to think of like a condition that’s commonly that’s been, that’s commonly that’s common to both psychedelics and cannabis.
[00:29:32] Do you think of, I think of PTSD. MGMA is on the verge of FDA approval for the treatment of PTSD. Cannabis has long been used for PTSD sufferers. Could those things, should they be used together? I can’t say again as a science, I can’t say that I, that is a yes or a no, but it’s an interesting question.
[00:29:51] Yeah,
[00:29:52]Bryan Fields: I think that,
[00:29:52]Kellan Finney: that, I think that honestly, that’s where the industry could have a huge breakthrough from a medicinal standpoint. And that goes [00:30:00] back to the entourage effect. And we’re talking about like poly pharmacy, instead of the traditional single API. Like diving into this polypharmacy could completely change our understanding and the landscape of how we treat illnesses and the medicines and the whole pharmaceutical space.
[00:30:13] So I think the potential there is
[00:30:14]Bryan Fields: massive. Yeah. Massive is almost under staking, right? We don’t know about the ECS system. We’re not really sure how either of the cannabinoids work collectively or separately, or even, and then blending that with like the psychedelics and the more. There’s so much to uncover in the next 10, 20 years.
[00:30:29] I could only imagine, the type of breakthroughs from a medicinal standpoint, we are like literally on the verge of just overcoming so many of these unknowns and figuring out maybe for the longest time we’ve looked at this the wrong way. We start looking at how to solve problems versus let’s just lock this in the corner.
[00:30:46] Like you said, Cowen, and hopefully never have to deal with.
[00:30:49]Lauren Wilson: And people are already combining, psilocybin and MTMA recreationally, right? You’ve got, if you want to do a hippy flip, you do mushrooms and MDMs, but maybe there’s [00:31:00] some, like something that’s so interesting about the evolution of both of these spaces is that if you look back at the ancient history of use, traditionally medicinally.
[00:31:10] People knew something like on an intuitive level, we move forward with these compounds and then science kind of catches up to figure out what the story is. But, maybe there’s some, there’s something there already that people are dipping their toe into and figuring.
[00:31:23]Kellan Finney: Have you had the book food of gods or it’s really good if you’re just now diving into the, like a psychedelic space, I highly recommend that it’s written by this really intelligent, like a cultural anthropologist who also has a ton of like scientific background and the way he goes through the whole history of humans and societies interaction with psychedelics.
[00:31:45] Mushrooms. It’s pretty phenomenal, honestly. So
[00:31:47]Bryan Fields: I highly recommend it. Yeah, of course. Is that going to be a harder stigma for us to fight collectively? Because obviously there are people who are now coming around and accepting, cannabis as potential medicine, but then you layer [00:32:00] on top, psychedelics has an aspect warn.
[00:32:02] Do you think that’s going to make it harder for, let’s say the older generation to be accepting of, let’s say the newer potential ways.
[00:32:08]Lauren Wilson: Good question. I think that at least what we’ve seen so far psychedelics is coming along faster than cannabis. And I think that’s, I think that’s in thanks to the decades of work that has been done.
[00:32:19] Breaking stigma around cannabis psychedelics is reaping the benefits of some of, changing public opinion already. And even, with Oregon’s measure 1 0 9 last year. The hill reported on a survey that was done shortly after that. And one third of Americans are already saying that they think psychedelics have medicinal value.
[00:32:36] That’s like where the psychedelics journey is evolving a lot faster than cannabis has. If I think about. Someone like my mom I think when I talk about psychedelics, she’s that feels like a stretch to her. And she, I grew up personally, with a mom who was like, just say no to drugs and cannabis as a gateway drug and all of this stuff.
[00:32:54] So for her, I think. Based on, how I see her [00:33:00] reacting and that’s it’s she’s got to get her head around that. So it’s I think it’s a mixed bag. I think if you’re talking specifically about the older generation, that psychedelics might be a harder sell, that makes sense. A lot of people did acid in the sixties and seventies, so
[00:33:13]Bryan Fields: We’re not judging them, honestly.
[00:33:16]Kellan Finney: The scientific evidence behind MGMA and siliciden is so strong, which I think is why it has gained the momentum is it’s just moving so quickly with it. It’s literally like they can just show how the brain is being rewired in real-time it’s phenomenal in terms of it just as clearly having an effect, you
[00:33:33]Bryan Fields: know what I
[00:33:34]Lauren Wilson: mean?
[00:33:34] Yeah. Yeah. And the longterm and the thing that I think is particularly cool is, the long-term. Therapeutic outcomes are strong. It’s working when we look at things like depression, PTSD, substance use disorders, like there is just such strong evidence and such promising, like it’s like there’s a reason that psilocybin is a breakthrough therapy treatment.
[00:33:54] There’s a reason that MDME is about to be approved. These things are really showing huge value. And not [00:34:00] only that, if you look at other. Other pharmaceuticals, the options that we have now for these conditions, these treatments often are, they’re like not one-time treatments, but it’s not an ongoing, it’s not a, it’s not an SSRI that you have to take every day for God knows how long it’s, it’s a few treatments that the risk for D developing dependency is like virtually not there, not for all of them, for MTMA psilocybin.
[00:34:21] Yeah, I’m so excited about psychedelics as medicine and I think. Yeah, much in the way that I’m excited about the future of cannabis. I think that, we’re really starting to figure some stuff out as human beings. And that makes me really happy.
[00:34:35]Bryan Fields: I think in order to get where we want to go, though, we have to adjust public opinion.
[00:34:39] I think like you were saying, Lauren is so spot on. It’s going to be so challenging because I can only imagine the conversations would be, what do you want to legalize next cocaine? And it’s no, you’re like, we’re doing it in a progressive measure for medicinal benefits. One of the ways I think we can do that is if the doctors become more educated in some of those scientific benefits, like you were saying Kellen, because I think they helped switch the opinion, right?
[00:34:59] When you’re [00:35:00] sitting down with your doctor and he recommends this approach, it might be one that kind of allows you to take it minute. I didn’t think about that. Do you think that’s something that I’d be comfortable with? And I think that’s the type of conversations that the older generation needs the app with their physician in order to feel more comfortable.
[00:35:15] When you are, I do approach our parents about this. They’re not like this is wild,
[00:35:20]Lauren Wilson: right? And I think another layer of that, especially looking at psychedelics, I was listening to a really interesting talk last night by, from someone who works in public health. And if you look at psychedelic specifically, and like I mentioned, the big.
[00:35:33] The big therapeutic applications that are showing the most promise around depression, PTSD, substance use. These are all conditions that like mental health as a broad umbrella has a lot of stigma around it, right? People don’t want to talk about mental health challenges. They don’t want to talk about their addictions.
[00:35:49] They don’t want to talk about their depression. It’s those are. Barriers to entry right there. So how do you break get past that mental health stigma barrier to then [00:36:00] open up the therapeutic potential of psychedelics, which then in and of itself has stigma around it? It’s a very complex multifaceted problem that I think that we need to really dive into in a more holistic way.
[00:36:15]Kellan Finney: That’s a click for sure.
[00:36:19]Bryan Fields: Since Lauren, since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconception?
[00:36:26]Lauren Wilson: Ooh, that’s a great question. I think that one major shift that I see happening, that when I got into, and also as a person who’s in, engaged with cannabis since I was a young human.
[00:36:36] So for many years, Is that, cannabis is an addictive and that’s a conversation that, for the longest, I was like, no cannabis isn’t as active. If you can become addicted to cannabis. It’s and, the fact is that you can, and it’s something that, It’s a hard topic of conversation for people who love the plant and want to see it proliferate.
[00:36:53] And I’m one of those people. But I think that, like you said, as an industry, we need to have hard [00:37:00] conversations. We need to be transparent, whether I were talking about semi-synthetic cannabinoids or we’re talking about, the wide range of effects that cannabis has in our bodies. And. So yeah, I think that seeing that conversation coming up more and more starting to have more balanced conversations around these substances because they’re complex, the way they interact in our body is complex.
[00:37:21] We’re still trying to figure all of that out and having balanced conversations about anything doesn’t make it good or bad. It just helps further. Understanding and acceptance in my mind. So I think that’s the biggest one that I’ve seen as being a value for the industry. Going forward, being a little bit more open to talking, having those conversations.
[00:37:44]Bryan Fields: Okay. All right. Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would it be? Ooh.
[00:37:59]Lauren Wilson: Ask [00:38:00] questions. Be curious, keep asking questions, keep being curious. There’s a lot to know about the cannabis family and the more questions you ask, the more delighted you’ll be.
[00:38:12] Honestly.
[00:38:14]Bryan Fields: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Prediction time. Okay. Lauren it’s 2025 is the psychedelic and cannabinoid industry working in harmony or against.
[00:38:27]Lauren Wilson: I’m my gut, like I’m an idealistic human being and my initial thought was they’re working together because why wouldn’t they, why shouldn’t they.
[00:38:38] Do either of you have a counterpoint to that?
[00:38:40]Kellan Finney: I completely agree. I think that there’s a ton of similarities. And so I was listening to a talk almost maybe last March by an individual named Dr. Marcus Rogan. And he was saying that it’s pretty phenomenal in terms of the chemistry at a molecular level.
[00:38:56] From a similarity perspective, right? So THCA [00:39:00] is what is naturally made by the cannabis plant. And that actually goes through decarboxylation, which is where you activate it to THC. And then you can actually get. With psilocybin, you have to do, what’s called a dephosphorylation, right? So there’s an almost identical step that needs to occur.
[00:39:14] And there’s enzymes in your stomach that do this for you, when you eat it. And also when you boil it too, so if you make tea and so it turns in it literally phosphorolates it. And so it’s a very similar chemistry. So it’s pretty wild that even on a molecular level, there’s these kinds of really simple.
[00:39:30] Chemistry’s that need to occur for a, to interact with the human body. So I believe that they’re only going to continue to move forward. And the other point I want to make is that there could be potential that you mentioned the addiction within cannabis. There could be the potential that psilocybin or psychedelics then could treat the addiction that people don’t talk about in cannabis.
[00:39:51]Bryan Fields: When you think of that, right? The problems that people don’t wanna admit, they have, there’s a solution to those yet. Scientifically I agree with both. But the [00:40:00] world doesn’t work like that. And from a business standpoint, it’s not going to happen. The cannabis industry is not going to want the psychedelic industry to rise in popularity because right now the pristine bad boy of the space or of the world is the cannabis industry.
[00:40:13] It is the hottest, fastest growing industry. And it’s not going to want another industry to come forward and to take a chance. And to start having conversations and Capitol hill about justice psychedelics because unfortunately our politicians are uneducated. They make decisions poorly and they move so slow.
[00:40:30] So if there’s another industry that’s battling for forefront and understanding, and education and priority on their list, they’re not going to want it to happen. So I believe that it’s going to be one of those killer, be killed style industries, and you’ll see the industries not want to be closely aligned.
[00:40:46] And Mike. Public opinion, pushed against the other in order to put it to the back burner as cannabis continues to fight its own stigmas pushing
[00:40:54]Kellan Finney: forward. I think there’s a difference. So I think that the cannabis industry, you can, there’s a [00:41:00] recreational aspect of cannabis. Sure. I don’t think that there’s ever going to be a recreational activity.
[00:41:06] Aspect of the psychedelic industry. Like I just mentally cannot envision people being able to go to a store and buy LSD and just Willy nilly, take it and go out into the streets. That’s just, or even mushrooms at that, you hear stories of people in college running around naked and like just the wildest things happen.
[00:41:23] So I just don’t think there’s ever going to be recreational, like psilocybin floating around out there. I could be wrong though, but
[00:41:29]Bryan Fields: Oh,
[00:41:29]Lauren Wilson: sorry. Okay. I was going to say Kelowna, I’m on the same page as you, you brought up the same point that I was going to bring up and I think. At least in the short term, I agree with you.
[00:41:38] I can’t speculate as to what, the next 50 years will look like as far as drug legalization goes, there’s certainly folks out there that advocate for the legalization of all drugs. And I think that there’s an intelligent. To be made there. But that being said in the short term, I agree with you.
[00:41:52] I don’t think we’re going to see psychedelics legalized for recreational use. And I think that’s one, one way in which the [00:42:00] cannabis industry can maintain its its hold. If that. If that’s what it wants to do. I think, I don’t know, again, as an idealistic person, I feel like that’s like boiling it down to, a pure business arguments and a pure industry argument is sent to me because I think that both the psychedelics and the cannabis space as far as medicines are concerned and helping people are like, they have so much potential.
[00:42:23] And to want to edge out one medicine that could be really helpful to people is just, why would we want to do that?
[00:42:30]Bryan Fields: It’s the same battle that pharmaceutical industry is doing right now with cannabis. Obviously we saw Pfizer entered the space, but it seems like prior to that, the pharma space was like, you know what?
[00:42:40] We’re not gonna allow this to come forward. And I think there’s always going to be that incumbent versus like new challenger. And I wonder if that’s going to be the.
[00:42:46]Lauren Wilson: That’s a great point. I think that the one thing, the one advantage, I guess you could say, and frankly, I don’t view this as an advantage, and I think that it’s highly problematic, but from a pure business perspective, I think that one advantage that psychedelics [00:43:00] do have is that they’re, they seem to be a little bit more patentable, and if you want to get into the patent playing game and you want to look at the pharma industry, I don’t think that’s in the interest of public health or healing people, there’s more opportunity to make money and you can patent lots of compounds. So I think, that’s why we’re seeing a lot of money move into the psychedelic space to begin with.
[00:43:21] That’s again, like I said, I think that the patent issue is one of the huge problems with pharma industry. They could, that could give psychedelics and advantage from a business.
[00:43:29]Bryan Fields: Yeah, for sure. For sure. So Lauren, for our listeners that want to get in touch, where can they learn more?
[00:43:35]Lauren Wilson: They can check out my website, Lauren M as in monkey, wilson.com or you can find me on socials at Lauren does
[00:43:43]Bryan Fields: this.
[00:43:44] Awesome. Thanks so much for your time. Normally come up on the show notes.
[00:43:47]Lauren Wilson: Thank you so much. Have a great rest of the day.
