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Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24
Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: What’s up guys. Welcome back to that episode of the dime as always I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is my guy Kaelin Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest west Campbell co-founder of end to end advisors, west banks for taking the time. How are you doing today?
[00:00:15] Wes Campbell: I’m doing excellent for a Monday.
[00:00:16] Thanks for having me on
[00:00:17] Bryan Fields: we’re excited. Dive in how.
[00:00:19] Kellan Finney: I’m doing, I’m doing really well, honestly, and joints too good weather it. Happy to have another west coast around the show. So life’s good. How are you,
[00:00:27] Bryan Fields: Brian? You and good. And obviously I tried to skip that point to try to get as fast, but the ratio is getting closer, but I’m excited to learn about accounting topics because I think what we’re going to discuss today, I think a lot of people in the space kind of put to the, to the back burner.
[00:00:43] You know, west, we’re going to help bring it to the front. So before we dive in west, can you give our listeners a little bit about your background?
[00:00:50] Wes Campbell: So my background, I am one of those public accounting junkies. I’m a former PWC, public accounting, auditor and capital markets [00:01:00] guy. I spent over 10 years with PWC auditing companies on the New York stock exchange.
[00:01:05] I then switched into their capital markets. Is there any services to do an IPO, mergers acquisitions, carve-outs us gap to ifrifrst conversions, vice versa have experience with them in the U S I was with them in Zurich, Switzerland for about six years, worked all over Europe, all over Africa. So this broad range of, you know, public accounting make director.
[00:01:30] And then about five years ago, I went out on my own and that’s kind of where Intuit advisors.
[00:01:35] Bryan Fields: Let’s talk about cannabis. When you dove into cannabis, was there hesitations, was there a moment you can take us through where you realize you want it to be
[00:01:43] Wes Campbell: in this. It’s funny because I always traveled and moved where PWC needed somebody to get the next promotion.
[00:01:52] And so when I left public accounting and I actually moved to Denver because I wanted to live somewhere with mountains again, I actually wanted to go [00:02:00] somewhere where I wanted to live and not be told by the way, you’re going to go here if you want to get promotion. And when I came to Denver and I went out on my own with zero clients, And just had a connection, a wholesale grow, and that was kinda my first step into it of, Hey, let’s, let’s see what this is all about.
[00:02:18] And, you know, it was kind of not planned. And once it started, it became very, very interesting to me and all the rules and two 80 E in this emerging market. And here I am, this X director with all this knowledge and experience, looking at this very brand new marketing cannabis. And so I went full in headfirst, everything else in the last five years, you know, cannabis CBD cannabinoids, they make up about 80% of our revenue right now.
[00:02:48] So it’s, it’s been one heck of a journey.
[00:02:50] Bryan Fields: So before we dive into some of the cannabis specific topics, I want to get a little comparison. Is there one area about accounting or in [00:03:00] cannabis that’s harder than outside industry that you can kind of give a comparison.
[00:03:03] Wes Campbell: I mean, everybody’s going to know it’s, it’s an inventory.
[00:03:05] It’s, it’s it’s to ATD and coming to this, understanding that based upon the rules that are out there, all these cannabis companies have to follow two 80 E. They need to be tracking their inventory. And what we usually see with a lot of our clients. That inventory number doesn’t even change on the balance sheet.
[00:03:23] They don’t have the systems in place, you know, coming from a public accounting background and Sarbanes-Oxley controls and all these audits and having a lot of capital behind you. That’s what we always see in cannabis. So that’s been the biggest hurdle with us is kind of telling people, look, you’re in cannabis.
[00:03:42] What’s your exit strategy. You know what types of controls, all this boring stuff. Most people don’t put value. Well it’s here. You need to have it. Where are we? How do we move forward? How do we make sure you’re compliant? That is the biggest thing is really 280E and inventory and all the regulation. [00:04:00] So
[00:04:00] Bryan Fields: that’s, that leads us right into our first question.
[00:04:02] So for our listeners who might not be familiar with, to ADE, can you just give us the layman’s definition of what two 80
[00:04:09] Wes Campbell: is? So at the end of the day, two 80 E basically says you can only expect. Cost of goods, sold everything else below the line, whether it’s your accountant like me, if it’s not a cost to produce and get that inventory ready for sale, you cannot deduct it on your individual partnership.
[00:04:30] S Corp corporate tax returns. You have all this Phantom income. How are you going to control it when you can’t take those deductions? And now we’re going to tax you on revenue that you really never saw.
[00:04:41] Kellan Finney: only it’s so two 80 is only for the cannabis industry. Right? Other industries don’t have
[00:04:46] Wes Campbell: to obey by weeks.
[00:04:48] It’s funny you asked that question because two 80 E came about and years ago with somebody who was actually selling cocaine and,
[00:04:57] Kellan Finney: oh, I was so hoping so much that you were going to go into this [00:05:00] story. Continue
[00:05:01] Wes Campbell: the IRS that look, even if you’re doing illegal stuff, right. Breaking the wall. Whether it’s a, it’s a schedule, one drug we’re still going to tax you on that income.
[00:05:12] So that’s where it started. And you’re kind of looking at it, going, most of these people doing that are on the black market and they’re not going to pay taxes anyway. So two 80 is from years and years ago, that’s now impacting cannabis and really, you know, hindering all these entrepreneurs that are trying to get into this.
[00:05:31] So it’s, it’s super old. It’s all about illegal drugs. And no matter what, even if you’re a drug dealer, you need to pay taxes on.
[00:05:37] Bryan Fields: Can you give an example for how much, like it actually hinders the operators? Just to kind of give some, some context.
[00:05:44] Wes Campbell: I mean, we’re talking every year. If I’m looking at an individual, let’s say that runs a dispensary.
[00:05:50] They’re probably going to have about a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of income coming through a K one. Now I’m getting a little bit tax accounting on you. This [00:06:00] ordinary income that gets passed through and flows to their individual tax. So because you can’t deduct it, that means your taxable income is higher.
[00:06:08] So for instance, You can’t deduct my costs. If you’re doing advertising you, can’t in theory, deduct that cost from your bottom line to get your taxable income. It’s strictly comes back to what is your cost of goods sold? And so it’s, it’s very, very challenging for a lot of people to try to understand this, because now you’re into a cashflow situation, you sell a million dollars worth of product.
[00:06:34] Your cogs is only two, 300,000. All of a sudden you’re paying taxes on 700,000, but then you had another 300,000 and expenses you couldn’t,
[00:06:43] Bryan Fields: and that’s exactly what I wanted you to share, because I think that’s the part where people kind of sometimes misunderstand how exactly how that applies. So what can, what can operators do?
[00:06:54] Is there, is there loopholes, is there waste through that? Is there any, is there any ways to kind of figure out [00:07:00] how to, to save a little.
[00:07:01] Wes Campbell: Well, there’s two things here. The first thing everybody needs to remember is the IRS is on a backlog, right? They have over 8 million returns from last year. They still haven’t processed.
[00:07:11] They’re understaffed. They’ve really not got into auditing the cannabis space. Right? So the risk that’s out there is here in two to three years, everybody’s going to get selected or a lot of people on cannabis to be audited. Right. And that’s the gigantic risk that people don’t understand. Your books are going to get looked at the one thing that people can do.
[00:07:32] And we preach this to everybody. And I think we were talking earlier. Brian is everybody has an attorney. Everybody calls her attorney. I need to set up a legal entity. I need to do this. They pay that attorney. They go away. They solve an issue as accountants were there every day. You need to call us before you’re calling that attorney or both at the same time, so we can all collaborate so that you’re not behind, you know, the starting line, you know, most people get into business and all of a [00:08:00] sudden they’re making money.
[00:08:01] They are trying to look at their books and nothing’s making sense. The IRS guys coming down saying you owe us all this money. So the biggest thing that we try to tell our clients is get on the phone, give us a. Let’s talk for 15 minutes. Let’s hear what you’re trying to do. Let us give you our insights. I mean, 20 years experience, I’m telling you, I can give you a lot of pointers of what not to do, because we’ve experienced that with 99% of the cannabis clients, CBD clients that we service.
[00:08:30] Bryan Fields: And I wonder west too, then the kind of following up on that point, you know, in those instances where they’re not keeping you actively involved and then the IRS comes, I’m sure one of their first phone calls is to you west. Hey west. W w what is this? I don’t know where any of these things are. Where’s this supposed to go?
[00:08:45] I mean, you’re then stuck in a really
[00:08:47] Wes Campbell: challenging situation. Well, they love us when those letters start coming in from the IRS, you know, that’s when they give us a call. And the first thing I tell them is this all comes back to your financial reporting, your [00:09:00] accounting, your bookkeeping, every single, if you don’t have clean books, you’re never going to be able to argue with the IRS or give them the support to say, here’s my.
[00:09:09] Right. So now all of a sudden we get these new clients two, three years in the industry and their books are a mess. Now we’ve got to fix that process going forward. On top of looking backwards, we also see some really simple things where, you know, a lot of clients go out and set up all these different LLCs and they love to Tommy.
[00:09:30] Well, I’m an LLC and I’m like, Are you a partnership? Is there more than one person? Are you a sole proprietor? Have you made an election to be taxed as an S or do you want to be a C Corp? Just because you’re an LLC, there are other stipulations on how you’re going to be. Tapped. Tax is one piece of the overall equation before we even get to taxes.
[00:09:50] It’s your financial accounting and reporting daily activity to get those results in order to flow into that tax return. So we try to [00:10:00] coach people that. This is an everyday thing. It’s not solved one problem. If your process is not thorough and complete your numbers, aren’t going to reflect it. You’re going to make bad management decisions.
[00:10:11] Possibly. You’re always going to be looking at what’s in my bank. The bank is one account on a balance sheet to me, you know, what is your net income? What is your Phantom income? There’s all these lovely things that when you come from this public accounting background that you’re telling people. It may not be the sexiest things, but internal controls and processes and documentation is vitally important.
[00:10:34] And you should have it in place before you even make your first sale. But most people don’t do that.
[00:10:40] Bryan Fields: I think that’s so, so well said, right. Because if you’re using your bank account to make, let’s say marketing decisions or growth decisions, And you’re like, well, we’ve got all this money. We should go grow the company.
[00:10:51] And then the IRS comes and they’re like, well, by the way, you owe us some money. You’re like, well, that seems weird. I thought you took the money. And that’s where things get really interesting. So [00:11:00] Kellen kinda kind of come in a little bit, is counting a forgotten piece of the puzzle. You think with.
[00:11:05] Wes Campbell: I would say
[00:11:06] Kellan Finney: not anymore.
[00:11:07] I would say at first it was definitely a huge issue. I mean, straight up, I think we were chatting earlier before the show. And you mentioned a story about a client having an outstanding tax bill. And I literally experienced that firsthand. I was working at a company out in California and we had a great year and it came, came to January.
[00:11:28] Next thing, you know, the accountants was like, okay, well you owe $800,000 to the IRS. And it completely sunk the company. Every single employee had to take a massive pay cut. It was just a giant, giant mess. And I mean, the company was barely hanging on after something like that. You know what I mean? It was.
[00:11:46] Massive massive mistake on their part. And I mean, again, I’m, I wasn’t, I wasn’t an accountant, but just experiencing that, it literally showed how challenging it is to operate a business in the cannabis space. [00:12:00] And then if you’re not kind of hyper vigilant in terms of. Kind of making sure that you’ve overturned every rock before you jump feet first into this industry, the repercussions from mistakes are just insanely massive for my experience, you know?
[00:12:16] And I mean, it’s tough because from, from my understanding and correct me if I misspeak here, Wes, but you in order to play two 80 the right way, and there is a specific playbook to approach that if you’re in. Canada’s for instance, and you mentioned inventory a bunch, but in order to maintain that inventory, that’s a day to day.
[00:12:39] Operation like you can’t just be like, okay, we’ll do that inventory thing. Come March before I send my paperwork over to the account. Right? It’s a day-to-day thing. Is that correct?
[00:12:49] Wes Campbell: Less it’s it’s every day. And what ends up happening is most people are used to having an accountant. It’s just taxes and they get their year done.
[00:12:58] They say, here’s all my [00:13:00] receipts. You know, here’s all this go do a tax return as a cannabis company. Every single day, you’re making sales, you have expenses, you have things like a chart of accounts, right? That is extremely detailed. And you get people like me that, you know, with 20 years experience, we just know how to play the game now.
[00:13:19] And one of the first steps that we tell a lot of our clients or we’ll do the analysis is let’s see your vendor master list. Let’s actually map all your vendors to the specific account that is hit in your trial. Right. Where do they all go? Is it cost? Is it not? You know, every single one of these things, we, we always have this analogy and accounting is you bring us in the train still moving, or the plane’s still flying.
[00:13:45] Right. We are building that train track. We’re building that plane as it’s flying on top of, we’ve got to look back and say, what’s the last year. Do these results make any sense before we do a tax return? So it’s this constant. Evolving that has [00:14:00] to go on and, and a big part of it’s this collaboration.
[00:14:03] We’re not the people that just, you know, at the end of the month does a couple adjustments. Here’s what your P and L looks like. Here’s what your balance sheet looks like. It is an everyday thing. We have to partner with our clients and collaborate and share information, get this, you know, dance kind of going to where.
[00:14:24] We don’t get it month end or year end. And all of a sudden it’s a fire drill to get a tax return done. You know, right now I have clients that are calling me saying, Hey, I have so many receipts that I need to get in the books that takes time. I mean, that can take days, you know, luckily we have a group of 13 people that are working with us, that our employees, we have that capacity, but right now we’re in January and everybody’s thinking, well, my taxes aren’t due until April 5th.
[00:14:51] You need to be talking to us. Now we need to know where you are. Are your books complete? What’s your structure? Do we have a partnership [00:15:00] type return? Do we have a corporate return? Which our legal entity structure, because we’re in January. So that means 10 90 nines. All W2’s need to be sent out by the end of this month, when we hit March 15th, you have partnership and S-corp.
[00:15:14] Are do or extensions then April 15th, your individual taxes. That is not a long time, especially when you just had 12 months of activity. If you haven’t had your accountant in the loop, that means there could be 12 months worth of fixing. I got to do on top of adding in receipts and everything else. You can give a lawyer, a call, they solve an issue or two, and those guys are expensive.
[00:15:39] You call us right now. We’re not cheap, but we’re not a lawyer. But it’s the time it takes us to get caught up, to go through those black holes, to ask all the questions that we need to make sure when we’re filing taxes, that we have the complete picture, you know, it’s literally 365 days a year. Not just.
[00:15:58] Yeah,
[00:15:58] Bryan Fields: like it’s [00:16:00] continuous partnership. It’s not, it’s not an as need basis. Right. Because if you have to get some pieces of a puzzle in April and then go, all right, well, there’s a huge gaping hole right here. What happened in quarter three? And they’re like, well, you know, we had an issue here. We have an issue here and it’s like, that’s great.
[00:16:15] But like, we now have to figure out where these pieces of the puzzle are because we still have to submit them from.
[00:16:20] Wes Campbell: Well, and not to mention, maybe we picked up a set of books that was done by a bookkeeper, right. Or, you know, you see all these commercials right now, especially with the NFL play and all the playoffs.
[00:16:30] And you know, this QuickBooks person I’ll make sure your books. Well that person’s probably getting paid 20 bucks an hour. Right. I come from five years of college getting a, master’s essentially taking a CPA exam, all this public accounting experience. And you’re telling me that person on a QuickBooks commercial is going to know what I know it’s never going to happen.
[00:16:49] And, and, you know, we tell people all the time, if that’s the way you want to go do it, because you’re going to call us when everything hits the fan. And now all of a sudden, we’re trying to get you out of.[00:17:00] Not necessarily trouble, but just out of the challenging situation. And it’s, it’s just like working out or eating, right.
[00:17:07] It’s a consistent day-to-day thing in order to feel better. You know, I can’t just go to the gym one day and think all of a sudden I’m going to come out and have a six pack ready to go to the beach and everything else at 45 years old. Right. Cause that’s what we try to explain to our clients is bring us in now let’s start talking.
[00:17:26] Let’s see where your needs are. Sure. Maybe you can’t pay. For us to be your fractional CFO, fractional controller, but there is value we’re going to add and work with you to get you up to par because we don’t like the fire drills, you know, and that’s what we experienced year, end and year out. And that’s the whole reason behind, into end advisers.
[00:17:46] It’s this into end solution where we do your monthly accounting. I don’t even like to call it bookkeeping because it’s more than that. It’s monthly accounts. Working with our clients at month end reviewing stuff, reconciliation reviewing [00:18:00] adjusted trial balance is looking at internal controls, looking at the chart of accounts so that when we get to year end, right now, we should have most of our partnerships, our escorts, and everybody done on time.
[00:18:11] So we go from the start of doing the monthly counting all the way to the end of we’ve got your business taxes. And then we turn around and do the individual taxes. We try to keep everything under one roof and not just. This year end, Hey, please do my taxes. And it allows
[00:18:27] Bryan Fields: you to be aware of situations before they incur, because you know where you’re looking, right.
[00:18:32] If there’s a gap in certain areas, you know, going in this is going to be likely a harder, a
[00:18:36] Wes Campbell: harder area. I’ll give you a perfect example. So a lot of clients will go out. Maybe they have some liabilities that they own. So all of a sudden they’re going to try to sell it dispensary. Well, when you sell a dispensary, that’s a taxable event.
[00:18:52] When you started that dispensary, do you think most people keep a list of all the money they put in that tells them what their [00:19:00] basis is for that business? How much money did you put in? So when you sell it for a million dollars, how much was it worth? How much gain do you have Right. And, and people don’t look at it this way because they’re focused on, I need to get money.
[00:19:14] I need to sell this. You know, they, they want to fix one thing. And, and as the accountants and the people that have studied this for years, we go, yeah, that’s one piece of the puzzle, right? Like you’re looking at your cash account again, and I’m sitting here going, what’s the balance sheet, say, what’s your income statement?
[00:19:31] Say, you know, what did you do the entire year to get to this point? Now we’re at tax season, you’ve sold a business and you have no idea what your basis is. We encounter these things every single day. And especially, you know, you look at med men, you look at cookies and a lot of these other bigger, you know, cannabis companies, they have the capital behind them to be able to pay advisors, to take care of stuff.
[00:19:57] When you’re talking about the company doing [00:20:00] five to 15, They don’t have that wiggle room, you know, a hundred thousand dollars effectively in some of them is what we see. It’s always this cashflow crunch that’s coming on. So we’re always telling our clients, call us, let’s start talking, you know, am I picking up the books from somebody who doesn’t know what they’re doing?
[00:20:18] And that’s what we do on a regular basis. So there’s just, this, it’s always a moving target. Right? And, and so to us, it’s just like, come on, call us, let us get in there. Let us start advising you. Let’s work out a way that’s cost-effective for you to have us involved in don’t make the mistakes we’ve seen about that.
[00:20:36] Kellan Finney: I have a question. Is there any other tools that you recommend Wes, that could help kind of jumpstart then if they’re looking to reach out to you, I know QuickBooks is probably one, right? But is
[00:20:47] Wes Campbell: there anything else? QuickBooks is funny because you know, everybody gets sold on, oh, it’s so easy. You know, you can, you see the commercial?
[00:20:55] You can do QuickBooks self-employed it’s no big deal. It’s actually a [00:21:00] pretty sophisticated tool when you really start digging into it and looking at journal entries, reporting, you know, it’s one piece. The other thing we talk to people is document retaining. Are you using something to save all your receipts, all your invoices, whether it’s a Hubdocs we use smart bull.
[00:21:19] So with a lot of our clients, you know, they have a link to their smart belt where they can upload all their monthly reporting stuff, receipts, anything for their taxes, you know? Any type of technology we can use to streamline us getting information and communicating with our clients. We are going to use, you know, we want to get away from the days of tons and tons of paper.
[00:21:41] The hardest part is you’ve got to play on that when you’re already in, you know, 20, 22, trying to do another 15 million in revenue and you don’t have these things set up and you call us well, now we’re already behind the box. So, yeah, we want people to use QuickBooks. We want to use a fathom, which [00:22:00] is a reporting tool that connects to QuickBooks.
[00:22:02] We have companies right now that are using district, which is an inventory management system. Shout out to the district people as I’m giving them a plug you know, same thing with QuickBase, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re all these different apps that can be connected to QuickBooks, but QuickBooks has only one.
[00:22:18] What about these entities? We have a CBD client right now. They probably do over 15 million in revenue. They actually have an entity in the UK. How do you actually consolidate that into their QuickBooks? Right? What, what is actually going on now? The sudden you’re using a different currency? What are you doing?
[00:22:39] You know, as these companies evolve over time, it become more sophisticated. That’s where you need someone like myself that has that big four accounting experience. That’s audited, public companies. You know, one of the things we always tell our clients, and I don’t know if you guys remember Enron, right.
[00:22:55] That failed, lost everything. And that’s where Sarbanes-Oxley. [00:23:00] And it was all about internal controls. And I’ll tell you what internal controls documented and walkthroughs controls testing is some of the most vanilla work you could possibly do. But when you came up through public accounting doing it, you realize how important it is.
[00:23:16] You realize that understanding your different processes, remanence of receivables, purchasing the payables, the inventory system, the financial reporting system, all of these things need to be addressed. Understood understanding the accounting workflow of everything so that when we produce a report at month end quarter and year end for taxes, that we know this information is complete and accurate, right?
[00:23:43] And, and, and now I’m talking about these companies, these public companies like Pfizer, or, you know, that have billions in revenue yet we’re dealing with cannabis companies that only do 15, 5 million, maybe a couple hundred dollars. It’s almost like trying to, it’s like the three of us trying to plan an NFL game [00:24:00] and we’ve never trained and we’re all well, under six foot tall or something, it’s not going to work.
[00:24:05] Right. So we’re always encouraging people to call us. Let’s discuss where your needs, if I can do stuff for you to get to that end result and make sure you’re compliant. I’m not going to come in there and say, we need to do a full blown analysis and it’s going to cost you $250,000, or I need $500 an hour, but if you’re ignoring it and you’re not looking at it, it’s only going to come back and hurt you in.
[00:24:32] Bryan Fields: Yeah. Time is not your friend in those situations because when they make those desperation calls, there’s an urgency attached. And when you need something done, you know, two weeks ago, and you’re still juggling all your other clients that you deal with on a monthly basis that you feel good about going forward, you know, you’re going to have to put them to the side and for that, that’s going to be a resource.
[00:24:52] You know, that’s going to be resource tax. So my question to. State to state challenges, right? Not everything is the same. Each state has different challenges. So if your [00:25:00] business is in one state and then you, you start doing business in another state, are there additional loopholes or additional
[00:25:05] Wes Campbell: challenges, always challenges.
[00:25:08] And, and I’ll bring up California. I mean, just excise tax in California and how the middleman is collecting that. Right. And in California, you have a lot of big players there. So a lot of smaller companies have to get. Now all of a sudden, you’re given 30 days, you’re impacting your cashflow. California’s in the tutorial for taxes and how much they charge people.
[00:25:29] I’ll give you a simple example. Just if you set up an LLC in California, you have to pay an $800 fee every year. Just to have that, LLC, you may never do any revenue or nothing, but you have to have that LLC. Whereas in Colorado, that’s not the case. But in Colorado, you also have headcount tax. So it’s only four bucks, but do you think most people realize they need to be paying $4 per person?
[00:25:55] Even when they’re a partnership let’s flip over to Florida, Florida is great [00:26:00] right there. Isn’t it. Freaking individual tax there for people that are in Florida. And so we get these clients that start trying to play the state game, right? Like, oh, well, we’ll incorporate in, in Florida. Well, you know what, though, if you’re making your revenue in California, you got to follow the taxes there.
[00:26:16] It’s where the stores come, where the source income is. Right. So there’s just a lot of misinformation. And quite frankly, with end end and my business partner, John Lai, who’s also a CPA. Being able to collaborate with individuals that have the education, our clients, whether it’s me reaching out to my PWC network to talk to partners that I know about different challenges, we have no matter where you operate in cannabis, you’re always going to have state to state challenges on top of federal.
[00:26:47] I mean, you’re in cannabis. You can’t go back. You know, you, you can’t use, you know, bank of America that the banking system that’s set up. You know, you already have one hand behind your back and you’re [00:27:00] trying to get to with legal entities with, oh, they’re never going to know, or we won’t get picked for all.
[00:27:06] All of that is the unknown right now in cannabis. Right. We’re still, who knows three years, five years away from federally regulated and, you know, cannabis where people could actually get the advantages like a Pfizer does, you know? So just because you’re a multi-state operation, it only means it’s going to be tougher, more challenges, more convoluted, where you are.
[00:27:29] Us to come in and we need to be talking with your lawyers. You know, we’re, we’re a group here we’re, we’re trying to help each other. We’re your advisors. We’re one big team.
[00:27:38] Bryan Fields: Does any federal change influence accounting status for cannabis companies? Is there an event on the horizon that makes the biggest difference for cannabis
[00:27:47] Wes Campbell: operators?
[00:27:49] I mean, I think everybody’s waiting for it to become federally regulated, you know, federally illegal. That would be. The biggest blessing. I mean, I know right now, you know, another [00:28:00] topic we haven’t come up on is everybody says, oh, we’re going to go public. You know, that’s, that’s always the big, you know, sexy, oh, we’re going to go public going public costs a lot of money.
[00:28:11] And you now have a whole new set of rules. You got to follow not to mention you can’t do that in the United States if you’re touching the cannabis plant. Right. So what you’re seeing is is these companies that. Go public on the OTC or something. And it’s all non plant touching businesses, whether they hold the IP, whether it’s just machinery and equipment, you know, they’re, they’re trying to play this game.
[00:28:38] And then up in Canada, they’ll go public and have a shell. Right? So the big thing on the horizon is when we can, all of a sudden open the capital markets to cannabis and people can go through. But we always tell people at the end of the day, go talk to Elon Musk. I mean, Tesla went public and I think every single day he wishes it was private [00:29:00] because you have more leeway to do what you want because you don’t have to follow what the sec said.
[00:29:06] You know, there aren’t as many restrictions. So as far as what do I see on the horizon, I can send you to see challenges. I continue to see the market mature. I think you’re going to see more banks try to get involved. But until it’s federally legal, it’s still the wild west out there.
[00:29:24] Bryan Fields: So just one quick point on that.
[00:29:26] Elon Musk. Oh, sorry, Kelly. Just on your side.
[00:29:29] Kellan Finney: I was just going to, I was wondering if safe banking would affect two 80. I’m not familiar with that. It just does say banking. This allows banks to invest without
[00:29:37] Wes Campbell: risk. Right? Well, the thing is with banks, you have to look at, you know, for instance, in Colorado, you get some of the smaller, more regional banks, like partners that will go into cannabis.
[00:29:48] Right? You’re not getting the same comfort that you would as far as being a non-cannabis company in the banking realm. A lot of these banks only have a couple of [00:30:00] accounts. Right. And what ends up happening is they kind of bring everybody’s money in and then they’re just, it’s called restricted. Right.
[00:30:07] They allocated to their different companies that their service, but that’s the biggest hurdle right now is you can’t go to these JP Morgan chase bank of America and put cannabis money in there. Not to mention, I mean, anything over $10,000, you need to be doing an 8,300, you know, I mean, it’s getting even more restrictive.
[00:30:29] I mean, look at crypto, look at Yeah, I think there’s, there’s laws out there right now where they’re looking like, anytime you do over $600, right. Which is the threshold for a 10 99, they wanna, they want you to report that there’s still so many risks and there’s still that black market out there that the us government’s afraid of that they’re always trying to track and understand because of the Monday laundry, that’s the biggest issue.
[00:30:54] And let’s be honest. I mean, a lot of people in cannabis came from the black market to [00:31:00] begin. So you still have people that have operated outside of the legal way for years, trying to kind of do the same thing and be compliant. It’s even additional risk because they don’t understand the big plane.
[00:31:13] Bryan Fields: I think when it gets rescheduled, I think, I believe so.
[00:31:16] Let us know if I’m off there, but I think that’s the last thing I read is if they get rescheduled, then cannabis isn’t federally illegal. And then two, he gets removed. But from what I’ve read, the government obviously likes their two 80 tax, right? Because my God has had a nice check to come, but the IRS has made their statements.
[00:31:32] They don’t want to get these, these large cash payments and it’s, it’s harder for them. And I don’t think with their, let’s say slow moving pace. They don’t need it to be any harder for them. They need it to be.
[00:31:42] Wes Campbell: And, and, and, you know, that’s what we’re all waiting for. And you know, you, then now we’re diving into politics, right.
[00:31:48] Then you’ve got to wait until mid-March. So where people sit there and get aggressive and they go, oh, well maybe it’ll be a year or two. You’re probably a full election cycle away before it’s really picked up. And I mean, I’m [00:32:00] from Indiana originally. And Indiana is one of the states. Like, I mean, when is that really going to be federally?
[00:32:06] Well, when they figure out that I can drive to Illinois or Michigan again, get my cannabis and bring it out. You know, like, I mean, everybody’s going to continue to do that, but I mean, think about it. Do you add, let’s say a pound of marijuana and you drove from Denver, Colorado to Indiana Indianapolis.
[00:32:21] You’re running the risk in these states that you can get arrested and put into jail for years yet in Colorado, it doesn’t mean. That’s it, you know, it just wild world. Oh, it’s a very interesting dynamic and being the accountant that I am, you know, we love that detail. The devil’s in the detail, the more compliance is out there.
[00:32:41] The more you guys are gonna need us, you know, just because I have this incredible talent that I can read. IRS guidance puts most people to sleep, you know, but that’s just 20 years of experience in understanding how things and move. You know, when I was in public, I mean, one of the largest transaction I ever did was with.
[00:32:59] [00:33:00] We carved out two business units essentially. And one, we sold to Nestle for $9 billion. The other, we took public on its own. It took us a year and a half. So as you know, the rules continue to evolve and companies, you know, want to go public or get bought, you know, all these accountants and lawyers and everybody else.
[00:33:21] You need us in there now, you know, one of the first questions we always ask with our clients is what’s your exit. Yeah. Well, where do you go? Where do you want your company go? Do you want to sell it one day? Do you want to give it to your kids? You know, what’s the play here and that’s something, most people can’t even answer to us, but we have to be brought in early so that we can start partnering with people and helping, you know, mitigate risk and educated, educate them at the same time.
[00:33:46] Bryan Fields: And I’m so glad you brought that up because we’ve had a ton of conversations with operators, whether they’re plant touching or not. And we asked them the same thing, you know, what’s your exit strategy? You’re like, oh, I’m going to get. You know, I want to get bought and it’s like, great. But then you need to have clean books because [00:34:00] someone’s not coming in to buy a multiple on a, oh, I trust Kellen.
[00:34:04] He’s a good guy. I’ve known him a long time. He says we’ve made 2.5 million for the last three years from now. For sure. We’ll pay three X that like, that’s not how this
[00:34:12] Wes Campbell: works. We actually already, w we picked up a new client. It was July. I want to say 2020. And their first thing, they came to me, they said, oh, well, we need to get.
[00:34:23] And I said, well, when do you need the audit? They’re like three months in three months. We gotta be ready. Do you think that audit ever really occurred? No. They already had two years, year and a half of some other bookkeeper doing the book. They went from cash basis, accounting to accrual basis of accounting, which is a switch just to easy switch.
[00:34:41] You know, when you start analyzing stuff and, and you’re looking at them going, by the way, your audit, you need two years of a balance sheet. Most likely you’re going to need a couple of years of the piano. And if you’re you have no control, so they’re going to detail, test everything on top of it.
[00:34:55] You’re going to pay for that audit and you might not even pass it. So what happens if you [00:35:00] don’t pass it, you just spent, you know, 300, $400,000. On getting an audit, which is literally, you know, two pieces of paper paragraphs, you’re looking for an unqualified opinion, go through all these audit procedures and then you fail and nobody’s going to buy you.
[00:35:15] Like, that’s why we come back to people. And we say as much as you don’t like me to say processes and internal controls, that’s where the foundation is. That’s where people need to understand when you make a sale, what is happening? How does that one sale, all of a sudden get into your financial. What controls are in place.
[00:35:33] You know, the beautiful thing of me and my business partners, we both were auditors’ right. I know what they’re looking for. I know how to do all the tests. I did that so many years. It’s great experience to advise our clients, but again, it’s almost, you don’t have to be perfect, but you got to know that the books are fairly clean to pass that on.
[00:35:55] Otherwise, you know, we did due diligence. I think if it’s installed and it was [00:36:00] me versus seven consultants and we hold our own, but they were never going to pass the audit. So we got rid of the audit. Then they’re looking at doing a merger or other things, you know, another way to acquire this company.
[00:36:12] Well, at the end of the day, they could never truly understand, did this company actually make money on the products it produced and sold, and that nix the entire. So you just spent months trying to get a deal to go down and like you, like you said, Brian, oh, we’re worth 30 million now. You’re not worth 30 million.
[00:36:33] Cause when you go through due diligence and especially in audit, the people looking to acquire you or merge with. They want that number to be as low as possible. So as possible walls, clean as possible, and that’s where the value comes. Right? We, we usually try to talk with our clients and say, look, this is a two year partnership.
[00:36:51] It takes two years to get clean books and it’s going to cost them money to do that. The more you listen to us, and the more we [00:37:00] kind of put this broad range of everything that you need to do, it’s not. I’ve got a problem. I need you to call the IRS, but this is an everyday thing that you need to be doing.
[00:37:10] So how do we get there? And the solution is you fix the processes so they can go forward. And then you turn around and look back. You know, I have clients that get into QuickBooks and they don’t even know where to put, you know, they put everything on cash in hand. Yet you got a bank account. They just don’t know how to use it.
[00:37:26] And unfortunately, being that accountant, you just shake your head. And, you know, I always say, I don’t want to cuss on this, but you know, if you mess up your books, I can UNMIS them. You know, I can get you where you need to be. But as far as, you know, if we want to test revenue and I walk out and I’m going to select 55 different revenue transactions to tests, I do.
[00:37:49] Non-statistical. Well, any one of those that doesn’t tie out one-to-one it makes sense. And that audit procedure, all of a sudden, I’m an extrapolated across your entire population and you might [00:38:00] have a material misstatement, therefore we’re not going to give you an unqualified opinion, which is what you need in order to potentially get sold to somebody.
[00:38:07] Bryan Fields: Yeah. It doesn’t work where you’re like, well, west just don’t look in that closet and we won’t have any issues. It’s like, well, that’s not really how this is going to work, especially because I think like, as outside. Companies want to kind of come into cannabis and they look to scoop up, right? We’ve already seen the beginning of, of massive mergers acquisitions.
[00:38:23] They’re going to want to see clean books and they’re not going to accept well, you know, that was Charlie’s job. He hasn’t done such a good job for our last couple of years. He’s just a bookkeeper. Like that’s not going to work for some people. So then I think what happens in some cases that’s not the right partner.
[00:38:37] They might move on and pass because time is going to be of the essence when it’s time to move on. I guess west my question to you is how big or how small of a company would be best to utilize the services
[00:38:48] Wes Campbell: like yours. So we have clients that range from anywhere to $300,000 in revenue up to well over 15 million.
[00:38:57] With our experience, we are always [00:39:00] happy to work with those that are, you know, I kind of always tell people, once you start hitting 20 million, plus you’re probably outgrowing quickly, right? You need to look at. Product in order to do your accounting prior, full blown ERP system, you know, we’re comfortable in the couple of hundred thousand up to about 15 million.
[00:39:21] That’s our sweet spot right now, but we also have the experience when we get kind of away from that into end playbook, where, you know, we do the monthly accounting, we do your business taxes, individual taxes. We also compliment that with the fact that. I come from a capital markets background and audit background if med men or a cookies needed somebody with my expertise.
[00:39:43] Yes. I have the staff behind me to do the a hundred thousand to 15 million. I can still go out and do that consulting, you know, so we try not to limit ourselves, but if you were asking me a sweetie, Probably a million to 15 million, you know, at any point in time, I’m [00:40:00] happy for a company to call me and just, let’s do 1530 minutes just talking and see if there is a way that we can help you or give you some insight and see if this is the right fit.
[00:40:09] You know, I’ve been very blessed that we don’t really go out and look for clients right now through the work we’ve done the last five years, word of mouth, you know, usually there’s more out there than we can. Specifically handle. So that’s where we try to talk to these new clients to understand what the looking for, to see for the good fit.
[00:40:30] You know, w when you start out, you’re going to take anybody, you know, you’re just looking to generate revenue once you’ve matured. Now we can be a little selective. And one of our biggest things with our clients is we need you to collaborate with us. We need to be talking, you know, weekly. We need to understand what your goals are, what are your exits, you know, really that smaller, you know, not, I don’t need the a hundred million dollar company.
[00:40:53] If I’m going to be doing over a hundred million or the big, you know, corporate med men. Those are going to be purely [00:41:00] consulting hours just because of my background. So hopefully that answers your question. I kind of rambled a bit. No, I think
[00:41:06] Bryan Fields: that’s perfect because I wonder what, like, if someone was listening to this, like, oh no, I’m not a good fit for west is end to end team because I’m too small or too big.
[00:41:14] I think the important takeaway is that, like, this is something that most don’t really want it. Yeah, but always kind of neglected and it ends up being a problem later on. So the sooner you kind of get in front of it, because it’s not putting, you know, duct tape on a leak, it’s fixing the leak and then figuring out how to go forward with a successful solution.
[00:41:33] Wes Campbell: Well, and it’s, it’s more than just one month. We’re there with you every single day.
[00:41:40] Bryan Fields: Yeah. Things have to go in the right spot or also you just got a mess. So since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest mistake?
[00:41:46] Wes Campbell: I think the biggest misconception is that they make a ton of money.
[00:41:52] You know, you, you tell people I’m in the cannabis industry and they say, oh, that means they must be making money, hand over fist. It’s like, no, it’s [00:42:00] tougher than that. You know, I’ve seen people that go out, they get $10 million. Next thing, you know, they’re buying farms in California and you sit there and you wonder, you didn’t realize in October and September, September, October, that outdoor harvest was coming.
[00:42:15] Now, all of a sudden you have 40 to 80,000 pounds of cannabis in your warehouse and you can’t get rid of it. You know, most of the companies, if they’re not looking forward and understanding what the books and all the different reporting we can do with them, They don’t have $10 million sitting in a bank to cover the challenges that creep up.
[00:42:37] You know, one of the things we try to tell our clients is I want to see three months of operating expenses in your bank account as a, you know, just to make sure you have that stop gap right now, when big players come in and undercut the pricing for cartridges, like we were talking about earlier, the little guys feel that.
[00:42:57] They need every [00:43:00] $10,000 in that bank account to make payroll, you know, if you feel comfortable, don’t because it can change in a second. As we’ve all seen in the industry, new rules can come out. What if you get picked for. You know, what, if somebody’s looking at your legal entity set up and you know, what, what if the IRS, the tax court actually makes a ruling that all of a sudden impacts your structure?
[00:43:21] You know, we’ve got to be risk averse and plan for the unknown. Those are the biggest things, and it’s not this free for all, all of a sudden, everybody just has boatloads of cash. You know, that’s the biggest misconception in cannabis. I’ve seen more companies go under than those that have been successful.
[00:43:39] Let’s just put it.
[00:43:39] Bryan Fields: Well said before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation,
[00:43:49] Wes Campbell: what would it be? Call us, call us and, and talk to us. I’ll give you 30 minutes. I’ll give you an even up to possibly an hour.
[00:43:58] Let’s talk about what’s on [00:44:00] your mind. Cause I guarantee you I’ve got five to six different things you didn’t even think about and you just had to. Make decisions and deal with day-to-day operations and you, everybody puts the accountant kind of on the back burner. They always think, oh, just taxes. None of we’re there every day with you and coming from our backgrounds of public accounting, you know, we’re used to working with billion dollar companies, you know, I know what it takes to go public.
[00:44:27] I know what it takes to be a $70 billion company. So call us that’s the biggest misconception. Don’t wait, talk to us.
[00:44:35] Bryan Fields: That’s a well said. No, one’s a use of that question. As a sales pitch, I had tip for you when to put a bed prediction time. West is two 80 E making a wider gap between large operators and smaller operators, or is it the same challenge for everyone?
[00:44:53] Wes Campbell: I think it’s the same challenge for everyone. I think the smaller operators. More difficult time because they don’t have the [00:45:00] same resources. They don’t have the same amount of people working there or expertise in house. You know, a lot of companies we run into, if you have a CFO, you should probably have five accountants per every one, CFO.
[00:45:11] It’s usually the opposite. They have a CFO and no accounts, you know, like that’s kind of, you know, and it freaks us out because nobody wants to talk accounting. Everybody calls us a bean counter and all this other stuff, and we always want to put our hands up and go. No, we’re actually the most important piece that you guys are not using.
[00:45:30] Give us a call so we can help you maneuver so we can help get your reporting up to speed. So we can tell you all these lovely things we learned over 20 years, that most people don’t even want to read about.
[00:45:41] Kellan Finney: I mean, I agree with glass. I think that strictly it’s a resource thing. I also think that with a lot of like smaller startup. I think that the entrepreneurs associated or the founders associate with those startups tend to kind of overlook a lot of these like more simple aspects of running a business.
[00:45:59] Right. And so [00:46:00] like bringing in accountants, having a CFO, like those kinds of things kind of are probably overlooked a lot just from starting a company. Right. Like it’s hard to be like, I’m going to go hire a high-class CPA internally and an in-house lawyer. Like you just don’t have the resources for that.
[00:46:15] And so just because of that, I think. You’re at a disadvantage when you go toe to toe with like a large MSA, who’s got massive amount of capital behind them and resources, and they’re able to go forward multiple accountants and CFOs internally that can just alleviate a lot of the issues down the line from a
[00:46:32] Wes Campbell: tax perspective.
[00:46:33] And one of the beautiful things I try to tell people is, you know, I went out on my own. I started my own company. I got a PhD and small business, even though I’m a double major finance accounting with. Decades of work experience. You know, one of the biggest things that we come across is payroll. I mean, payroll is one of the biggest pain in the butts.
[00:46:53] All the reporting deposits, you know, people say, I want to do it myself. I’m like, no, you don’t, you absolutely don’t want to do that [00:47:00] yourself. Pay paychecks. Right. I learned really fast too, as an, as you know, on my own, I need. I don’t like a people. I wish I could keep that money in my pocket, but I can’t do it myself to see the growth from five years ago with zero clients to now we service over a thousand tax returns.
[00:47:17] You know, we probably manage over a hundred million in monthly accounting services. You know, these companies that are growing, I’ve been through the gamut that everybody else has seen in cannabis. And I would love to talk to people and give them that expertise. And as you guys can probably tell, I love to talk, you know, doing all these, you know, different projects.
[00:47:38] You know, when general motors came out of bankruptcy, I actually was a manager with PWC based in Zurich. They sent me down to Nairobi, Kenya to clean up the plant, you know, so they could float the stock again. You know, we have this mix of small market, started your own companies. See those challenges to all the way, you know, to publicly [00:48:00] traded companies, whether it’s in Europe or whether it’s on the sixth and Switzerland to the New York stock exchange, we have that breadth of expertise.
[00:48:08] And we continue to expand that we have, I think we’re 13, 14 in-house employees and two partners on top of I have fractional CFOs. I’ve got a valuation guy. We work with all the time. We are trying to have every arrow in the quiver to help these clients succeed. And even if we have an initial conversation and you’re not ready for us.
[00:48:30] I will put time and effort into building that relationship to be there, to make sure they understand the risks and the big pitfalls. And if that means it’s a year until we get that business, or let’s say we started a very, very simple monthly rate. We’re happy to do that because the value we bring, you’re not going to get with just having an attorney with having somebody who thinks they know Quip, you know, we’ve been.
[00:48:56] All over the spectrum with public companies, a small businesses to [00:49:00] starting our own. We have all these lessons learned and we just want to share it with everybody. So I like
[00:49:05] Bryan Fields: your name and Dan really well done from marketing sense. I’m going to, I, I, I guess I didn’t ask the question correctly, but I think we’re all in agreement that I think the longer the two 80 E continues on it widens the gap between the big operators and the smaller operators.
[00:49:19] Because I think as you continue to play the game like this, the bigger guys are figuring out ways where it’s not killing them as bad, where the smaller operators might be struggling. As the time progresses, that kind of gaps separates. And then when two 80 does get removed, I mean, talk about like a cashflow standpoint, how much more things will just change.
[00:49:39] It’ll just be like an
[00:49:40] Wes Campbell: unleashed. Sure. It’s going to help everybody not feel the constraint or, you know, you not paying taxes on Phantom income that they never saw. You know, that’s going to be huge. And that jumps into the whole there’s part of what we probably haven’t touched. What’s your setup? What type of legal entities do you have?
[00:49:57] Do you want to be a C Corp? Do you want to be a [00:50:00] partnership? You know, a lot of people went to this whole management company route. We’re going to set up an LLC. That’s going to be a management company, so it doesn’t fall under 2 88. That’s great. However, the same two people in the management company are actually the two owners of the dispensary over here, substance over form.
[00:50:16] Doesn’t hit, you have to be structured the right way to take advantage of the. I don’t want to say tax breaks, but you know, we always say you want tax. What is a tax avoidance, not tax invasion. Right? But again, we’re back to planning. Think about this before you’re involved. Before you set up that LLC, give us a call.
[00:50:36] Let’s discuss it. You know, our clients right now want to go out and raise money. They don’t want to pay a lot in taxes. Well, those two things go against each other. You’re telling me you don’t want to pay taxes, but you want to raise money. So you want your net income to be as high as. Does it make sense to be a C Corp?
[00:50:50] Well, if you’re a C Corp, I protect, you know, that tax doesn’t go to you personally. Now it’s going to the business. So there are all these different ramifications and you can talk to a bunch of [00:51:00] attorneys, accountants, and everybody kind of has a different take on what the. Structure is to me. It’s let’s just start the dialogue.
[00:51:09] Let’s understand where you at, what you’ve done, how do we move forward? How do we make sure to eliminate you pain, unnecessary taxes and cash out of your bank. Those are the biggest pitfalls we see with everybody. You know, I have multiple clients that are so cash strapped. You feel bad when you’re sending them that bill.
[00:51:28] And you just think, gosh, if we could hit the reset button and go back and start over when you have $10 million. This would be a whole different ballgame.
[00:51:36] Bryan Fields: Yeah, it’s really well said. So for all those out there that are listening that want to get in touch west, where can they reach you?
[00:51:43] Wes Campbell: You can go to our website into an advisors.com.
[00:51:48] We also have. Phone number out there. It is area code 3 0 3, 6 0 4 8 2 2 5. Extension 1 0 1. That’s me. I’m going to say, you know what, Brian Callan, they [00:52:00] can email you guys and say, can I talk to Wes? And you can give them my cell phone number. I am careful you be
[00:52:05] Bryan Fields: careful with that requests. You might be getting blown up.
[00:52:07] Wes Campbell: No, it’s, it’s, it’s funny because you know, we’re in Denver, we’re in LA from my time overseas, I actually have a partner based in the UK who we work with, you know, we’re, we’re looking to expand into the international market to take advantage of my experience with ifrifrst and you know, all these pharma companies were a big part of my experiences.
[00:52:29] You know, we want to continue to grow and be this boutique firm. That isn’t like the middle market or the big four accounting firms that you know is charging you $600 an hour and has 18 people on the engagement. Now we want to be the boutique firm that can come in and advise our clients to make the right decisions and start thinking about things that they, they never wanted to.
[00:52:51] They’re looking at how do I get enough money in my bank so I can pay my payroll. That’s where you need to call us. They can call me. Anytime they can go ahead and hit the [00:53:00] website. Our email is [email protected] as well. Like I said, if they want to shoot you an email, I am always open, always on.
[00:53:09] We learned to work the 12 to 18 hour days, seven days a week in public accounting. And we still do that. Take advantage of
[00:53:15] Bryan Fields: that free consultation. I bet you every single person listening here has at least a question that they can shoot over. It’s free information that likely put you on the path to being better than you were before.
[00:53:26] Wes Campbell: Oh yeah. And we’re like right now, it’s January who needs tax returns done. It would be
[00:53:30] Bryan Fields: February when this drops. So if everyone was like, damn, and I lost that a month, it’s one less month than when you’re hearing this
[00:53:36] Wes Campbell: beautiful thing is, is I have my business partner, John ally, who, who leads up the tax department with everything else.
[00:53:42] So, you know, I can work. Everything prepped to send over. I do a lot of integration work, a lot of quarterbacking. I can proudly say last year I did one tax return and that was my own. And I didn’t have to feel the pain of, you know, I’ve got a thousand returns plus that gotta get out. So, you know, we’ve [00:54:00] grown, we’ve evolved.
[00:54:00] We’ve got the capacity. We’re always happy to have people reach out, even if it’s 15, 20 minutes. Even if it’s a silly question, bring it on. Meet as many people as I possibly can. Awesome.
[00:54:11] Bryan Fields: Yeah. Well, when you get all up in the show notes and we’ll push everyone to hit you, your cell phone, the middle of the night.
[00:54:16] Thanks so much for your time, Wes. [00:54:17] Wes Campbell: You’re more than welcome. Thank you so much. You guys.
