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Explore the world of cannabis extraction with a global leader that is vertically integrated and made in America in this episode.
MACH Technologies is focused on developing cutting edge technologies, processes, and equipment for botanical extraction. Their engineered systems are designed with safety, efficiencies, throughput, and ease of use in mind. Our team of mechanical, electrical, controls, and chemical engineers ensure our equipment and processing systems are the latest technology, and we are driven by innovation.
Featured in Today’s Episode:
- Cutting edge botanical extraction
- Innovative cannabis processing
- Leading customers to success based on their goals
If you are Curious about the cannabis industry, but nervous that you’ll get lost in the haze, then stream The Dime podcast where hosts Bryan Fields and Kellan Finney break down the cannabis industry with the one’s building the future.
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangents.
[00:00:11] What’s up guys. Welcome back to another episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is my right-hand man Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest Rob , president of mock technologies.
[00:00:22] Rob, thanks for taking the time. How are you doing today?
[00:00:25]Rob Wirtz: I’m doing great. Thanks for having me guys. I’m excited to be on. So I appreciate it.
[00:00:29]Bryan Fields: Kellan, how are you doing?
[00:00:30]Kellan Finney: Doing really well? You know, it’s finally that. Someone from the west coast and a bunch of east coast people that in the conversation, I feel like Michigan’s a little more west than the other people we’ve talked to.
[00:00:40] So I’m going to go with it. How are you doing Brian?
[00:00:42]Bryan Fields: I’m doing well. I appreciate you asking. I think Michigan’s kind of like right in that central line and we can kind of dive into some of those concepts a little bit. So, Rob, I appreciate you taking the time. I’m excited to kind of dive into some mock technology and some of the benefits.
[00:00:55] So for our listeners that are unfamiliar, can you share a little bit about the company[00:01:00]
[00:01:00]Rob Wirtz: Yeah, so great. So MACH technologies were really in a specialized equipment and technology manufacturer focused on the hemp and cannabis space. So what’s unique about MACH is we design and manufacture all of our equipment and technologies in house in Michigan.
[00:01:13] Everything’s made in the us. We’re very prideful of that. And we have a really good, unique suite of technologies around ethanol based extraction around a hydrocarbon extraction around solventless extraction. So we try to tackle all these things. Potential solvents and methods of extraction, do everything in house.
[00:01:31] So we can provide really the customer, what they want based on which route they want to go. And then on top of that are kind of in our core is all about service and making sure we can do everything we can to keep our customers successful. So in a nutshell, that’s. A lot
[00:01:46]Bryan Fields: of it. So when a customer comes to you and they they’re interested in kind of participating in the cannabinoid experience, so they usually have a technology in mind, or is it kind of a back and forth and understanding what their end point is?
[00:01:57] And then working backwards,
[00:01:59]Rob Wirtz: it’s kind of [00:02:00] a mixed bag. I would say some people who are very familiar, common, they know exactly what they want. We have other customers who come and have the initial product that they say here. This is what I need, but we always everything in our sales cycle, we try to take a.
[00:02:15] Like a consultative approach to us. So we try to back into exactly, you know, how did you get to that? Where do you start? Where do you want to be in a year, three years, five years. And a lot of the times we figured we kind of help guide them a little bit to try to make it. So they’re not spending too much capital up front.
[00:02:30] They’re getting the right equipment to getting the right technology. For the markets they want to play in and the compliance they want to follow. So it’s kind of a loaded question, but some people know exactly what they want. Some people think they know we have to guide them and some people say, I want to get in.
[00:02:44] I have no idea where to start lay it on me. And I know that’s your wheelhouse jumping
[00:02:49]Bryan Fields: from there.
[00:02:49]Kellan Finney: Yeah. I mean, I think that that’s the full spectrum and a lot of times people don’t, they just want to get in the industry. I always ask them to kind of do a little soul searching and be [00:03:00] like, well, what do you want to make?
[00:03:01] Right? Because each different extraction technology that Rob just mentioned creates a different product and behaves different there’s different regulations required for each one. There’s different science on how each one’s functions. So they’re very different beasts. They all may concentrate the chemicals from the plant, but they all do it in slightly different.
[00:03:22] So I think, I think that’s a good answer.
[00:03:24]Rob Wirtz: Let’s
[00:03:24]Bryan Fields: talk about processing safety. Obviously people are diving in there’s some inexperienced operators. Is there different, unique aspects that MOC brings to the table in order to kinda provide that safety level for operators?
[00:03:37]Rob Wirtz: Yeah, for sure. Safety is really big.
[00:03:39] It’s kind of one of those. You know, our main pillars that we focused on, that we saw, again, gaps in industry that we thought we could help fill, because, you know, with our experience coming from a lot of other, very highly regulated markets, you know, safety has been a key for these markets that have been around for 50, 60 years, that in new markets, like.
[00:03:58] They can be, you [00:04:00] know, not at the top of mind to people. So when we designed all of our equipment, we designed it all around, you know, safety and automation is a big thing that plays into that. And we use basically very nice operator, touchscreen control systems, and we have where you all 5 0 8 a panel shop for control systems.
[00:04:17] We use all you all listed electronics. We’re an ASMs certified. I take manufacturer. So we take all of these things. We build them all into automation. We put redundancies in there and basically we try to take out the opportunity to let operators forget, to do some tasks that we’ll over pressurize discharge on the floor overflow tanks.
[00:04:37] Let’s take out those air points to really increase the safety aspect of the operation of the equipment. So that’s very, very important. I,
[00:04:45]Kellan Finney: I want to go back to one thing you said, you just mentioned a lot of acronyms. Do you want to, could you elaborate for our listeners on like what UL is and ASM and all these acronyms that you just threw out there for those who, who aren’t fully educated on what those acronyms
[00:04:59]Rob Wirtz:[00:05:00] mean?
[00:05:00] Yes. So UL is basically, it’s a regulatory body that really controls electronics. So it’s underwriters laboratory. There’s a number of. What they’re called NRT Al saw nationally recognized testing laboratories that go into that. It can be TAC, which is ETL their CSA. So there’s a group of these that basically regulate and say, the components that are basically listed in certified are reviewed by these NRT ALS and they’re certified to be safe for use for the environment.
[00:05:29] So if it’s a class, one division, one environment, a class, one division, two environment, these are basically one step above a third-party peer review to say. NRTs I reviewed these and these are safety using these environments. So they’re the top of the line for electronics that are used in electronics are very important in these environments, obviously, because they have to be classified correctly because wood flammable, vapors, or chemicals, you know, there’s always risk of something igniting, which we can dive into the ventilation requirements and the safety on that.
[00:05:59] So that’s that. And [00:06:00] then the SME, basically it’s a pressure vessel certification. So again, it’s another outside body that comes in certifies our welders and our company to say, we can make pressure vessels and we can stamp them. And we have an SME use stamp that basically says the calculations the tanks have been reviewed, which has all the wall thicknesses, all the weld types and characteristics of the well.
[00:06:22] I think you get full penetration welds to make sure that these are safe vessels that are really fit for use for the application. They’re going
[00:06:30]Bryan Fields: these certifications though. Are they necessary to operate in today’s cannabinoid industry?
[00:06:36]Rob Wirtz: So AFME absolutely is so on ASMC that really falls into the hydrocarbon side and the current regulations are kind of split there.
[00:06:45] The market goes off of anything that’s bigger than a six inch diameter vessel has to be a SME certified. That is not the case for all the operators out there. I will tell you that, but they have a true certified system. And if you have it, third-party peer reviewed. That is one of the [00:07:00] things that will absolutely make you pass or.
[00:07:03] And that’s done either from an equipment standpoint before it’s shipped or if there’s onsite technical inspections. So that’s very, very, very important. And again, the other side of it, the UL side or the NRQL listing side of electronics, again, I would say that is absolutely critical and required. Is it always done again?
[00:07:22] The answer is no, but as the market continues to get more regulated and I think as people become knowledgeable on the. ’cause a lot of, I think jurisdictions don’t really know what they’re looking for. Don’t know the questions to ask yet, as that builds up and people become more knowledgeable. I think we’re going to see a big shift of people who aren’t playing in that regulated market.
[00:07:43] Are you going to get pushed out of the market or. And to
[00:07:46]Bryan Fields: kind of continue on that path cause we’ve had some of these challenging conversations. So it’s really great to hear you reiterate that for our listeners. And more specifically, some of the prospects we spoken with say, they take a more cost effective approach where they get a piece of [00:08:00] equipment that doesn’t have these certifications and regulations instilled in it.
[00:08:03] How hard would it be in order to let’s say, upgrade their equipment? Is that even a possibility to go from one of these pieces of equipment that doesn’t have these certifications?
[00:08:13]Rob Wirtz: Yeah. So when I guess, great question. When you say upgrade, I kind of take that as replace in our sense, because we do do that right now.
[00:08:20] A lot. Honestly, we have customers call us and say, we bought X, Y, and Z either doesn’t work or we try to get it certified. And the certifying body said, there’s no way we’re going to let you use it. So the problem is, is as typically our customers will try to say X amount of money there spend 30,000 on this piece versus ours being 60.
[00:08:40] Cause it’s 30,000 last everybody’s, you know, driven by capital, which I understand, but we always try to explain to people, you know, the purchase gets a lot more expensive when you’re taking that $30,000 piece of equipment and tossing it in the dumpster. And then spending the original money. So if you’re going to be a serious player in the market, we always advise people, you know, [00:09:00] take a serious approach to it, level up from a compliance standpoint.
[00:09:03] And if your competitors, aren’t the, you know, they’re not going to be in the market. Long-term in my opinion. So that’s the approach we try to take.
[00:09:12]Bryan Fields: I think that’s so important. Kellen. I want you to kind of shed some light on that because we spoke about have conversations and the story about the guy who referenced is expensive paperweight.
[00:09:21] So Kellen kind of dive in there.
[00:09:22]Kellan Finney: I have one funny story about UL certification. So like back in the day, when I was an operator, we were buying heating mammals to heat up some round bottom. And brown bottom flask Keating, mantles art, super cheap. You can get like the ones from China and they’re still semi expensive.
[00:09:37] And I had a procurement guy who found a really screaming deal on Alibaba for one out of India. And so I was like, why not save a couple hundred dollars? So we ordered. And like, I literally turned it on when we got it and it caught fire. It was like, can you sell something that catches fire when you plug it in?
[00:09:56] And it’s because it they’re just manufacturing these things without [00:10:00] any certification and regulations, it turns out that it’s like hard to take someone’s word from across the world that like, no, it’ll be safe. Just plug it in and turn it on. You know what I mean? And so municipalities don’t take your guys’ word, right?
[00:10:11] Rob. That’s why you have. These third party facility or companies come in and, and stamp it because they’re just not going to be like your day. Yeah. It’s Rob. We know Rob will take this word that everything was done. Right. They have to have it right.
[00:10:22]Rob Wirtz: No, for sure. And I think that, I think honestly, the manufacturers in this space should think of it more from, you know, outside of, just on top of the municipalities that are going to require it.
[00:10:33] But honestly, to make sure that. Equipment manufacturers don’t miss something. It’s always good to have another set of eyes and something. So for your own due diligence and liability, I think it’s super important. And it’s funny, you mentioned that story about that heating mantle, because I don’t know if you guys heard the other one in this space.
[00:10:48] And I was talking about ASMU pressure vessels that a lot of these vessels were coming from overseas and having Assamese stamps. And it came out of the woodwork that the company who were stamping and were stamping them with fake [00:11:00] SME stamps. And they actually. Pressure vessels. So it’s crazy. The stuff you see in the space for people who are saving Bibles, it’s counterproductive to what you’re doing.
[00:11:10] I mean, the risking safety and the product just crazy. And like you said
[00:11:13]Bryan Fields: before, it’s one of those where they spend, let’s say the 30,000 up front, which will likely be on the very, very low end. And ultimately have to put that into the closet as an expensive paper rate, as they double down on an equipment purchase, which is obviously something.
[00:11:27] Operators don’t ever want to do to have a double investment on capital equipment. It’s just never a good route to take. So. When you’re having these conversations and they’re kind of like hitting their head up against the wall about the cost to purchase one of these equipments. And they’re wondering about the investment of the upfront opportunity.
[00:11:43] Obviously being highly regulated is so important and telling them the future of where to go. Is there a specific fact or statistic that you share with them to let them know. This is the direction the industry is going. And these are investments for the long-term approach.
[00:11:56]Rob Wirtz: We try to be very transparent with our customers, to be honest, you know, we don’t [00:12:00] have, you know, a crystal ball that says where it’s going, but we basically share our experience in other industries that came up in a similar path.
[00:12:06] And in my mind, you know, honestly new emerging industries follow kind of a same path all the time. And I think it’s very clear to everybody when you talk to them. You never see stuff that’s coming out, that stuff is becoming less regulator or less compliant in this space. They’re always stepping up the bar.
[00:12:24] I mean, even in the NSPA codes and stuff like that, they’re adding more stuff that deals just with extraction. So people are starting to pay attention to it. And if you don’t buy the most compliant you can get at this point, you know, that is the best shot you’re going to have. And making sure you future proof yourself on compliance.
[00:12:42] It’s not guaranteed. Buying the most compliant stock today is the best shot you have on. Future compliant in the future.
[00:12:49]Bryan Fields: So, perfect.
[00:12:50]Kellan Finney: Quote right there. Yeah. That’s the future proofing it. I mean, that’s used so, so readily. I mean, if you’re not thinking about where the industry is going to be from a manufacturing perspective in 10 years, [00:13:00] then I don’t think you’re building a company for the longterm
[00:13:02]Rob Wirtz: personally.
[00:13:03] No, I agree with you.
[00:13:04]Bryan Fields: So let’s talk about some automation features. Is there a specific technology integrated into the equipment? Can you share a little bit more about
[00:13:11]Rob Wirtz: that? Yeah. So our flagship series lets if we touched, like, let’s say on the ethanol side or flagship series, which is our EES products, there they’re fully automated ethanol extraction system.
[00:13:21] So typical labs that require. A handful of operators and one guys, you know, managing the ethanol chilling system and other guys doing extraction. Now, the guys, you know, overseeing, let’s say the recovery or the Decar process, and for each of these processes, they’re basically manually transferring solvent into the extraction vessel.
[00:13:41] Operating each stage independently, they’re discharging it out. There’s operator error, there’s labor and there’s inefficiencies there. I mean, not only from a bottleneck standpoint, but I always talk to people about operational bottlenecks. Even if you have a chilling system and extraction system recovery system, all size for the cracked throughput, [00:14:00] the operators can introduce bottlenecks because they’re basically transferring fluids or turning them on and off at the wrong time.
[00:14:05] So you do have inherent operational bottlenecks. What’s awesome about our technology. Everything is controlled by one central control system. The entire system is designed and manufactured to work together as one complete unit. So to operate our system, you have a single operator. He literally puts the biomass sense.
[00:14:23] Lacks the recipe hit start. It does the automatic ethanol chilling to the right temperature and level based on the recipe at discharge that it performs a whole extraction process. Automatically pumps it out, puts it through filtration, puts it in the recovery process. The recovery process automatically turns on and off throughout the day automatically discharges the oil over to the decarb automatically runs the Decar process, transfers the, solve it back to the front end.
[00:14:49] So the whole process is really truly automated and it’s got level controls, temperature controls, pressure controls, and it’s all recipe driven. So it makes it super easy to act. [00:15:00] And the consistency of really the output product in there ensures that the recipe or the parameters that for every batch. And really show that from a compliance standpoint, the system automatically generates a PDF report at the end of each day, saves on the computer.
[00:15:16] So you can pick any day say, I want to see what bashes we ran, what recipe parameters were ran, what the machine actually did. And you can prove that your product is ran in a consistent format all the time.
[00:15:28]Kellan Finney: What record that record is used for standard manufacturing. What acronym is the kind of record work with as a CGM?
[00:15:36]Rob Wirtz: Yeah, so it’s, you know, CGMP EU GMP and it’s really just from a, from a, an overall compliance standpoint. So for basically for CGMP EU GMP, everything’s about manufacturing processes, repeatable making sure that your process is the same every time. And while you can achieve that with manually operated processes, the process control there, and the documentation can [00:16:00] become overwhelming.
[00:16:01] Should I say? And I think as the market continues to mature and things continue to move more toward like a pharmaceutical style manufacturing operation, those are going to be paramount in people’s peoples. I couldn’t agree more.
[00:16:14]Bryan Fields: I think that’s so important to kind of shed more light on because as these small organizations try to scale and they have to go from, let’s say one key employee to multiple key employees, if that key employee is sick that day, and he usually does a different tweaking to the SOP.
[00:16:28] I mean, now the end product is going to be slightly different. So when you’ve automated the entire. You can adhere to really, really strict QA QC guidelines, and then make sure that if things do go wrong, you’ve got a detailed record on going back and exactly identifying the parameters that, that went wrong.
[00:16:43] And I think that’s so critical. And once again, I’ll ask this question, even though the answer is very clear, is CGMP EU GMP necessary now, or necessarily more in the future?
[00:16:53]Rob Wirtz: I think it’s necessary now. I do. I think the major players are adhering to that now, and that is our goal. So I think. [00:17:00] Very important.
[00:17:00] Now I think it’s 100% absolutely necessary in the future. I mean, I, I kind of give, talk to people about, you know, when we’re talking about a pharmaceutical side, I, you know, kind of give them the, the story of, you know, there’s no way pharmaceutical companies are having people dose their ingredients and the capsules using a little shovel and pouring it in, you know, that is not the route.
[00:17:23] So it’s, you know, we have to think along those lines, Sure they could do it, but that is not the route. That is, that is unacceptable. So
[00:17:31]Kellan Finney: that’s such a good analogy.
[00:17:33]Bryan Fields: The visible, like, thinking about like, actually that experience is so alarming in the same regard and actually what happens in it. Yeah. And what happens in our space too, from an end product, of course, there’s incandescent.
[00:17:43] There’s human error continually throughout the process, which is always causing issues. So Kaelin kind of expand on that CGMP EU GMP, obviously it’s really, really strict to get there, but it’s one of those where exactly like Rob saying is the direction of where the industry’s likely.
[00:17:57]Kellan Finney: Yeah, no. And I think Rob touched on all of it.
[00:17:59] And the only [00:18:00] thing that I would want to try to point out as well would be it’s definitely needed now, because if you’re trying to build a brand around a specific product, it’s paramount that. Behaves the same. Every time you go to kind of display it in front of the consumer, right? Whether you’re in California or Colorado, or hopefully, maybe one day New York, if they ever decide to sell something you like that little shot, Ryan
[00:18:30]Bryan Fields: definitely, definitely just ruin his day.
[00:18:37]Kellan Finney: I mean, it really, really is important for. Building a brand that people will come back to. Right. If they like this specific product, because it gives them this experience. And I mean, we’re talking about. Derivative product. So it’s a chemical chemical profile, if you will. And we could get into entourage effects and all of these other things that research scientists are studying right now and figuring all [00:19:00] that stuff out for us.
[00:19:00] But if you want to generate a chemical that creates the same experience, time and time again, it’s going to have to have the exact same concentration of chemicals. And the only way to do that is to maintain consistency. Through automation, in my opinion, right? Because that’s, that’s the only way that pharmaceuticals have been able to facilitate the exact same product every time.
[00:19:21] I mean, you go buy ibuprofen in California and you buy ibuprofen and France, identical molecules and almost identical recipes. And that’s only made possible because the pharmaceutical companies are following CGMP and EU GMP guidelines. To ensure that their processes are the same every single time. So that, I mean, I think that’s the only main point I want to make.
[00:19:41] As far as CGMP goes, it’s not just to be a taxing event for operators. It’s, it’s meant to help operators monitor their process so that they can ensure trust in the consumers as.
[00:19:55]Rob Wirtz: Yeah, I was going to say for sure. I agree that I was going to just, you, you touched on it right at the end there just about, [00:20:00] I mean, the process is really just to ensure the safety of the product for the consumers.
[00:20:05] You know,
[00:20:06]Kellan Finney: safety is huge part of that as well,
[00:20:07]Bryan Fields: also to kind of expand on that when you pick up a product, right? And you have that type of difference, you start to have this off putting experience in wondering, you know, what was
[00:20:16]Rob Wirtz: the
[00:20:17]Bryan Fields: reasoning behind that? And especially with, with all the legacy markets and all these other products out there.
[00:20:22] So sometimes people kind of wonder. If there is enough regulations going on and what else is needed in the space. So I agree a hundred percent that it’s so important from an end consumer standpoint, to have a consistent, safe product so that they can avoid some of these stigmas that have played this injury.
[00:20:37] With some of the numerous stigmas that have played synergy for a really long time.
[00:20:41]Rob Wirtz: For sure agree.
[00:20:43]Bryan Fields: Let’s stay with the consumers when they’re making a selection of a product in a dispensary. Do you think it’s clear for them to understand the differences in the products that are ethanol attracted or BHO extracted?
[00:20:55]Rob Wirtz: You know, I think it depends on the level of the consumer. I think if the consumer understands. [00:21:00] The extraction process and knows basically which products are typically processed, let’s say through BHO which unique or more kind of sewer products that are made there, then they will understand that. I think just first time consumer off the street, walking in, I’m sure they probably don’t know, honestly, that there’s even BHL or ethanol or any of these extraction methods, judges looking at.
[00:21:23] And probably taking the advice of, let’s say the, the bud tender whoever’s there at that dispensary up. Here’s what I’m looking for. Here’s kind of the problem. I want it to solve. What do you kind of suggest? And they’re probably go through the process of how, how do you want to actually use that, that concentrate?
[00:21:39] I think it depends on the user’s level of knowledge within the space, you know, and I would
[00:21:44]Kellan Finney: even go further and say probably 80% of consumers out there in the cannabis world. Couldn’t tell you. Ethanol is, or what VHL really even means from an acronym perspective. Even if you said butane, they’d be like, oh, like let’s say my life.
[00:21:59] Right. Like [00:22:00] they don’t understand the chemical differences in these solvents, let alone what the, those chemical characteristics from a solvent perspective mean. As far as the act of chemicals you’re pulling out of the plant, I mean, operators would love to plant their flag and they will all die on those.
[00:22:16] Right. Like the operators will die if you have a really robust or like passionate VHL operator, like he will die on that hill about how BHL is better. And the same goes for ethanol and CO2, Damien, you know what I mean? Like they, they be prominent. They fall in love with it. And there’s little characteristics that they.
[00:22:34] Kind of hold onto and they, they literally plant their flag and they’re like, no, this is better for XYZ. And they all have those kind of buzzwords, if you will, in terms of what, why they believe one product is better than the other.
[00:22:46]Rob Wirtz: But I agree with you. I think there is one thing that I, you know, I hope in the future, the industry gets better at it.
[00:22:52] You know, you read a lot of articles, you see a lot of stuff. And it seems like companies who manufacture one technology or one solvent [00:23:00] extraction technology are bashing the other ones. And usually there’s not a lot of, I guess, truth through it. I mean, like, you always hear people, we get it all the time of somebody says, you know, I want CO2.
[00:23:11] Solventless. They said you don’t want to use ethanol and the product. And then we asked them, well, are you going to winterize the product? You’re gonna make a distillate. Yeah, we are. Then while you’re introducing a solvent at that point, they say, well, no, they, they, you know, I heard it’s different. It’s it’s not the same.
[00:23:23] And it’s incorrect information being put out there. So I think people are getting. Let us stray a little bit. And I think it’s, it’s a little bit, you know, shame on the manufacturers that they’re doing that again, to promote their own product in some aspect, rather than kind of give truthful information out there.
[00:23:39] That’s more realistic. So people can really understand the different processes. What the difference is between them, you know, rather than I guess, bash the ones back and
[00:23:48]Kellan Finney: forth. I couldn’t agree more. I mean, when I was an operator, I read as many different solvents as I could, because I was thinking diversification of products.
[00:23:55] You’re going to get more consumers and you’re going to build a stronger business.
[00:23:59]Bryan Fields: Yup. The [00:24:00] classic same, same.
[00:24:01]Kellan Finney: Same same but different. Yeah. Oh, that’s a good one.
[00:24:06]Bryan Fields: So Kellen kinda expand on that for our listeners who are unfamiliar with BHO versus ethanol versus CO2 at the end product, can you kind of give them like a real simplified version of what the differences would be from an end product stamp?
[00:24:17]Kellan Finney: Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of evolved a lot over the last five or six years, right? Significantly, if you will. When I first got into the industry distal, it really wasn’t a thing. And people were selling CO2 oil as like winterized oil is what it was called. It’s called Amber at the time. And they were just putting that into vape pens and selling vape pens.
[00:24:38] And that’s where. The majority of CO2 oil kind of found its place. And then ethanol wasn’t even really on the scene yet hydrocarbon, DHL, propane, or butane and propane kind of mixtures as to all these been the main market for that has always been like your heavy user, your dabber, if you will. And they are going to be the, one of the more robust.[00:25:00]
[00:25:00] Consumers, in my opinion, like they’re the consumer, that’s showing up every single week and buying a gram every single week, if not more, more often, but they’re not going to be buying massive quantities and you’re not going to have this, this mass adoption that we were seeing with, with like vape pens, where the soccer mom feels more comfortable with a vape pen in her hand.
[00:25:20] Taking a dab because the dab is a very interesting way to consume. I mean, anytime you got, let’s just, we just want to touch on that real quick. Like anytime you bust out a torch, like a glass rig and you look at someone and you’re like, no, it’s gonna be fine. Like totally fine. Like. You’re going to be looked at with some questions, for sure.
[00:25:42] Like, there’s going to be some people that are not the most comfortable with consuming something with those tools involved, if you will. But yeah. At the end of the day, hydrocarbon has been around for ever. And I think, I don’t think it’s going anywhere because. It does create some of the most [00:26:00] representative chemical profiles of the actual plant itself.
[00:26:04] If you just look at some of the, the scientific characteristics of how a hydrocarbon extraction is executed, it’s lower temperature. Lower pressures and CO2 the hydro hydrocarbon under those parameters is a very, very, very good solvent. And so it does a great job of capturing almost the entire Fido chemical profile of a cannabis plant.
[00:26:28] So you’re going to get some of the most accurate. Chemical profiles from a concentrate to flower perspective. That’s unadultered in hydrocarbon extraction and with ethanol, in my opinion, I think ethanol is the easiest to scale, right? So I think that ethanol automation and scaling it into like true industrial processes.
[00:26:50] R where ethanol purposes. And I think that that’s, that’s really good for lowering the cost of all of these other products, right? Like that chemical profile that’s [00:27:00] consumed through a DOB in a concentrated form. Isn’t something that’s the best suited for creating the other, all the other derivative products like topicals and edibles and textures.
[00:27:12] And I think that that’s where ethanol kind of fix it personally. I mean, Rob, what is your take on
[00:27:16]Rob Wirtz: all of this? No, I, I, a hundred percent agree with the, I mean, any, any time we talked to somebody. You know, what part of the market are you trying to go after? They’re trying to make unique products, obviously by resin shatters those types of products we say, yep.
[00:27:30] BHO is the way to go. If they’re talking about, I want to process a thousand pounds a day, I want to make bulk distillate. We’re going to sell it to market. We’re going to. You know, gummies and vapes and these other items, we say, well, you know, ethanol wins every day of the week there. So I think it depends on what they, what product they want to make.
[00:27:48] And that’s kind of where we try to take our approach to really understand their business and really. Underlying aspects of why they want to make those products. So it’s not just the first product they wrote about why they really want to make [00:28:00] those and really what drives them to their business decisions.
[00:28:02] So we can help guide them to make sure they’re making the right decisions. But I agree for sure. I think every solvent has its place. So I, I, I never take the approach of it’s this and all the other ones are horrible. Well, what are you trying to make? And here’s the actual best solution for that product?
[00:28:19]Kellan Finney: I was a part of a company that was heavily invested in CO2 and like, okay. Yeah, CO2 the product was had its place in the market, but like once I executed that process, I had biomass. That’s still. Active cannabinoids in them. And that’s why we ended up going towards ethanol. So like there’s a place to have both, or even all three different extraction systems in one facility, so that like you do this with it, and then the biomass goes over so you can capture more of the cannabinoids out of it.
[00:28:43] And is that something that you guys kind of see becoming more common
[00:28:47]Rob Wirtz: in the. It is. So I think it’s very common. I think it’s going to be continue to get more common, the most common aspect I typically see, I typically see solventless tricombs separation equipment, hydrocarbon equipment, and then [00:29:00] AF and all equipment.
[00:29:00] I typically see those three processes in larger facilities as the three most common as a package that I see. So you
[00:29:09]Kellan Finney: mentioned solventless, we haven’t really touched on that. You want to kind of go into some of the guys, you guys are solving with technology and maybe elaborate
[00:29:14]Rob Wirtz: a little more on. Yeah. So we have, we have a couple of different solventless technologies.
[00:29:18] The first one I mentioned, that’s more common. That’s kind of been out there in the industry is, you know, let’s call it ice water bubble has Tricom separation equipment, which is a more historical product that’s been out there. There’s some unique nuances that we have in our. For that type of equipment that we can offer people.
[00:29:34] But the other side of the solventless thing that we think has a huge place in the market is our solventless terpene extraction equipment. Because for people who really want to keep cannabis derived, turpines typically in an ethanol process. As you process it through, you hit it with solve it and you put it through recovery.
[00:29:50] And then if you put it through distillation, you strip those TURPs out. You’re degrading them throughout that whole process. So there’s a very, very, very valuable part of that plan. And I think [00:30:00] as research continues to go down, you mentioned the entourage. And basically the combination of these compounds together, I think more and more stuff is going to come to light that all of these things, it’s not just, you know, the THC level in the oil that people want.
[00:30:16] It’s all these other turpines and compounds that go together to create this full experience where the product. And I think people who really want that if they have good material and they have the turpines. Our solution is amazing because it pulls them out. Doesn’t decarb. It doesn’t disturb the, any of that cannabinoids.
[00:30:35] So then you can put those through a typical extraction process and you have two extremely valuable streams that you can either keep separate, or you can put back together. And you’re actually using cannabis drive. Turpines rather than turpines that come from other botanical plants that aren’t cannabis derived.
[00:30:51] So there’s a whole bunch of stuff that’s going on in the market that I think is going to continue to make. An extremely, extremely valuable process for [00:31:00] people going forward.
[00:31:02]Bryan Fields: Yeah, that’s perfectly said. So I want to switch gears slightly. Rob, what is one concept about extraction that operators or end consumers would be surprised or.
[00:31:12] To
[00:31:12]Rob Wirtz: learn. Honestly, I think consumers would probably be shocked to learn if they understood the level of operator innovation and traditional processes. To be honest, I think they would be very shocked to learn, to watch somebody operate a BHO machine because there’s a lot that goes into it a lot. They have to monitor a lot of valves are turning and there’s a lot of operator intervention in running that equipment.
[00:31:34] I think people probably, you know, blow by the actual work that goes into the back end of these products. I think
[00:31:41]Bryan Fields: horrified might be like a
[00:31:43]Rob Wirtz: better way to scout. I’m trying to be maybe a little more politically,
[00:31:47]Bryan Fields: correct? Yeah, no, you’re, you’re absolutely. You’re absolutely correct. And I’m glad you brought that up because it’s one that, I mean, even I take for granted to think about, you know, how, how many different variables could going on, but, you know, speaking with individuals like yourself and, and telling [00:32:00] continually has just made me.
[00:32:01] Surprised for sure to learn. And I’m glad that you shared that. Are we
[00:32:05]Kellan Finney: going to take a quick moment and just show some respect to all the operators out there that are making the products back there in those rooms, pulling all those valves because we appreciate the
[00:32:15]Rob Wirtz: job it is. And you know, there’s magic back there
[00:32:20]Kellan Finney: playing with explosive gases and
[00:32:22]Rob Wirtz: just cold, passionate about it.
[00:32:25] Isolated veins. And that’s one thing that’s funny that you talk about that. Cause we get that question sometimes and people are saying, well, we don’t want to automate the process because you’re taking away our job. You’re taking away our expertise and you know, my always my response to all it is, no, I’m not, I’m not trying to do any of that.
[00:32:42] I’m trying to make the process more repeatable, more consistent. And I want you to be able to use your expertise, to have more value, add to the company you’re working for, to your company, to whatever it might be. So your value can be better than you. And somewhere else, rather than monitoring the process that we can [00:33:00] automate based on your recipe, in your expertise, what you love, let’s simplify, automate that process.
[00:33:05] Use your knowledge and your skill and your time on other value adds in the organization,
[00:33:10]Kellan Finney: separate R and D from production. I think something that is so hard for a lot of operators to do, they just get so attached and they’re like, well, if I tweak it this little time, it’s like, no, we are running this material.
[00:33:21] Because of how we did it last time. So like, you can figure out a new way to do it next time we do this, for sure.
[00:33:28]Bryan Fields: Since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconception?
[00:33:32]Rob Wirtz: You know, I don’t think it’s a misconception anymore, but I will say, I think probably like most people, when you enter the space, I think there was a lot of incorrect knowledge.
[00:33:40] People are becoming more comfortable with the space, but I think, I think there was a big misconception about between CBD and THC, to be honest with consumers. And I think there was a big misconception about kind of the legality of THC and the uncomfortableness of people working on products to deal with that really well said
[00:33:59]Bryan Fields: before we do [00:34:00] predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would.
[00:34:08]Rob Wirtz: Gosh in this space, you know, it’s honestly, this space has been a wild ride. It’s getting so quickly. It’s crazy. I guess my experiences don’t ever take your foot off the gas. Always make sure you’re looking forward to what is next from a compliance from a regulatory. How can you help drive the industry forward rather than try to milk off what’s there above it.
[00:34:33]Bryan Fields: All right. Prediction time Robins 2025. What has changed with extraction
[00:34:40]Rob Wirtz: technology 20 twenty-five? I think the manual intervention will be almost eliminated. I think the extraction technology will be in all the major players is going to be more of a clean room environment. It’s going to be more CGMP driven.
[00:34:55] Honestly, I think there’s going to be like, he kind of said before, I think it’s the R and D [00:35:00] is going to be out. It’s going to be more production. And I think that’s going to be split into two different sectors. I think there’s going to be production facilities that produce very repeatable products. I think there’s going to be R and D facilities to try to develop what’s next for products.
[00:35:13]Kellan Finney: I mean, I couldn’t agree more. I think automation is coming faster than people realized. And I think that the methods that more established manufacturing industries have employed to move themselves forward, like pharma oil and gas, food, and Bev. I think that they will find their way into cannabis manufacturing quicker than anyone anticipates.
[00:35:33] And we’re going to see. Almost fully automated, really, really, really finite, like really heavily controlled extraction processes that are generating. Products that are predictable and consistent. So, I mean, it’s kind of the same thing Rob said, but I like, you know, if you believe it, like, why not just keep pouring it on top?
[00:35:53] What do you think,
[00:35:53]Rob Wirtz: Ryan? One thing just on top of that, that you mentioned that I like is, you know, I always tell people, cause people are. Afraid [00:36:00] of, you know, the big food and bag companies coming in, pharmaceuticals companies coming in. And I agree, I think they’re definitely going to enter the market, but on the other side of that, I always talk to people on is yeah.
[00:36:10] You know, depending on when they’re going to enter the market, as depending on when there’s going to be a need for them in this. If consumers continue to go down and kind of do more of the unregulated process that they don’t get on board with automation, they don’t keep trying to level up the industry.
[00:36:25] They don’t drive that somebody will come in and make a major shift. So I think it’s on the people within the industry to keep pushing it forward. I think the more the people who are in it now can push that push automation and keep pushing. We’re starting to make more barriers of entry of other people and less requirements for big players to come in and sweep everything.
[00:36:46] I think
[00:36:46]Bryan Fields: that’s so important, right? Because we have a chance since you’re in the space, now you’ve got a substantial start and a lead. And if you can adhere to where the industry is going, you’re right. You can keep yourself in striking distance or at least give yourself a real chance [00:37:00] to compete. When these big players come in.
[00:37:02] If they do come in, they’re going to have two options, right? They can either buy people up in the space, which they likely do in order to expedite the process into the industry. Or they got to start from square one. And we’ve talked about today, it’s challenging. There’s a whole bunch of opportunities. And let’s say a learning curve that goes into the.
[00:37:19] That if you haven’t operated in cannabis, you kind of sometimes don’t recognize the massive hurdles and the challenges that just come from just by operating in this space and to kind of take my swap at the predictions. I would say the regulations and the certifications, like we’ve talked about today, where people have that choice between like going with the cheaper option or with the one that’s more forward-thinking I think by the 2025.
[00:37:42] Those options will be really heavily swayed towards the more certified piece of equipment. I don’t want to have conversations with operators where I’m not interested in having conversations with operators now who are looking to kind of save money now and figure it out later, because those are the type of partners that are making the industry more challenging and [00:38:00] also hurting the end customer, I think, in the longterm.
[00:38:02] So my hope is that by 2025, everyone is onboard with regulations. We’re a little closer to kind of the distinct route of where we need to go. The path is cleaner and everyone’s kind of adhering to
[00:38:14]Rob Wirtz: that. No, that’s great. I agree. So Rob, for
[00:38:18]Bryan Fields: our listeners who are interested in learning more and getting in touch, where can they connect with.
[00:38:23]Rob Wirtz: Yeah, so they can, they can visit our website. It’s www.machtechnologies.com or they can email me. My email is R w I R T [email protected] or our phone numbers on our website. They can call in and talk to our sales or technical team and see how we can help them. Appreciate the
[00:38:43]Bryan Fields: time Rob we’ll link it all up in the show notes, talk to you soon.
[00:38:46]Rob Wirtz: Awesome. Thank you.[00:39:00]
